Here's my thoughts on it.
Neither Cutch nor Cole were salary dumps. They are going to be well under even the modest (by MLB standards anyway) payroll ceiling they've arbitrarily set. In other words, they COULD have kept one, the other, or both, and not lost money. I'm convinced neither move was necessitated by money. Now, to be sure, they HAVE made moves that were mostly financial in nature (e.g. Liriano). However, these two are not that. And, I think it does a disservice to the rightful criticisms against Nutting (i.e. calling him cheap).
Rather, the issue I have with the team are two fold, and one is at least tangentially related to finances.
First, as others have noted, they did utterly nothing following 2013, a year and a team that absolutely revitalized baseball in the city of Pittsburgh. The 2013 WC game will go down as one of the greatest sporting events in Pittsburgh history. But, they did nothing. In fact, they let Burnett walk away. They brought in Volquez, which worked out and that prayer was answered.
Fast forward to 2014. The team started off slowly (10-18). But, they turned it on late, and with a late push, got another WC game. Again, they did absolutely nothing to augment a good team, unless you count swapping Russell Martin for Cervelli.
In 2015, they have an emerging ace, brought back Burnett who had arguably the best year of his career, and Liriano was great. McCutchen had another great year. Cervelli had a career year. Marte was an All-Star. And what did they do following a disappointing loss to Arrieta and the Cubs? They traded their starting second baseman, non-tendered their best power bat, and tried to fill the void created by Burnett and Morton with Niese and Vogelsong. In other words, again, they did utterly nothing.
Three straight years of winning records. 280 wins in three years. Anything done to upgrade the team? Nope. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. That's where the fault lies in this.
If you care about the team, and not individual players on the team, which I do, it's not about McCutchen. It's not smart signing an aging veteran who has shown massive signs of decline into his upper 30s. It's not smart for the Yankees, and it's certainly not smart for the Pirates. So, I don't fault them for that whatsoever. But, I do fault them for not trying to augment this team when they were legitimately competitive.
The second problem I have isn't about money at all. It's a problem others have noted many times, and it's the issue of drafting. NH's drafts have been nothing short of abysmal. A few years ago, we had the #1 ranked farm system in baseball. So, something was going right. But, so many of those guys have not panned out.
Cole and Alvarez, while good players, haven't lived up to expectations. Taillon had TJ surgery and then cancer. Kingham had TJ surgery. Tucker had labrum surgery. McGuire was dealt to induce the Jays to take Liriano's salary. Meadows' star seems to have stalled. Jury is still out on Newman and Kramer, but to me, they look like Jordy Mercer types...good players who would start on good teams, but not guys who MAKE a team good.
I said this during the World Series. The Astros seem to have hit on everyone they drafted. Where's our Correa? Where's our Springer? Bregman? Where's our IFAs like Altuve or Gurriel? Where's our diamond in the rough from a draft like 7th rounder Dallas Keuchel?
I don't expect them to draft a hall of famer every year. But, if they want to be competitive, since they can't or won't sign good players and can't or won't trade for them, the only way we can get them is through the draft.
An observation
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SammyKhalifa
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An observation
51595A6D7B5E7976180 wrote: Here's my thoughts on it.
Neither Cutch nor Cole were salary dumps. They are going to be well under even the modest (by MLB standards anyway) payroll ceiling they've arbitrarily set. In other words, they COULD have kept one, the other, or both, and not lost money. I'm convinced neither move was necessitated by money. Now, to be sure, they HAVE made moves that were mostly financial in nature (e.g. Liriano). However, these two are not that. And, I think it does a disservice to the rightful criticisms against Nutting (i.e. calling him cheap).
Rather, the issue I have with the team are two fold, and one is at least tangentially related to finances.
First, as others have noted, they did utterly nothing following 2013, a year and a team that absolutely revitalized baseball in the city of Pittsburgh. The 2013 WC game will go down as one of the greatest sporting events in Pittsburgh history. But, they did nothing. In fact, they let Burnett walk away. They brought in Volquez, which worked out and that prayer was answered.
Fast forward to 2014. The team started off slowly (10-18). But, they turned it on late, and with a late push, got another WC game. Again, they did absolutely nothing to augment a good team, unless you count swapping Russell Martin for Cervelli.
In 2015, they have an emerging ace, brought back Burnett who had arguably the best year of his career, and Liriano was great. McCutchen had another great year. Cervelli had a career year. Marte was an All-Star. And what did they do following a disappointing loss to Arrieta and the Cubs? They traded their starting second baseman, non-tendered their best power bat, and tried to fill the void created by Burnett and Morton with Niese and Vogelsong. In other words, again, they did utterly nothing.
Three straight years of winning records. 280 wins in three years. Anything done to upgrade the team? Nope. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. That's where the fault lies in this.
If you care about the team, and not individual players on the team, which I do, it's not about McCutchen. It's not smart signing an aging veteran who has shown massive signs of decline into his upper 30s. It's not smart for the Yankees, and it's certainly not smart for the Pirates. So, I don't fault them for that whatsoever. But, I do fault them for not trying to augment this team when they were legitimately competitive.
The second problem I have isn't about money at all. It's a problem others have noted many times, and it's the issue of drafting. NH's drafts have been nothing short of abysmal. A few years ago, we had the #1 ranked farm system in baseball. So, something was going right. But, so many of those guys have not panned out.
Cole and Alvarez, while good players, haven't lived up to expectations. Taillon had TJ surgery and then cancer. Kingham had TJ surgery. Tucker had labrum surgery. McGuire was dealt to induce the Jays to take Liriano's salary. Meadows' star seems to have stalled. Jury is still out on Newman and Kramer, but to me, they look like Jordy Mercer types...good players who would start on good teams, but not guys who MAKE a team good.
I said this during the World Series. The Astros seem to have hit on everyone they drafted. Where's our Correa? Where's our Springer? Bregman? Where's our IFAs like Altuve or Gurriel? Where's our diamond in the rough from a draft like 7th rounder Dallas Keuchel?
I don't expect them to draft a hall of famer every year. But, if they want to be competitive, since they can't or won't sign good players and can't or won't trade for them, the only way we can get them is through the draft.
I agree with you in all of this. However, I would add that I see no point whatsoever in making the return include major league relief pitchers. Where is the sense in that?
Neither Cutch nor Cole were salary dumps. They are going to be well under even the modest (by MLB standards anyway) payroll ceiling they've arbitrarily set. In other words, they COULD have kept one, the other, or both, and not lost money. I'm convinced neither move was necessitated by money. Now, to be sure, they HAVE made moves that were mostly financial in nature (e.g. Liriano). However, these two are not that. And, I think it does a disservice to the rightful criticisms against Nutting (i.e. calling him cheap).
Rather, the issue I have with the team are two fold, and one is at least tangentially related to finances.
First, as others have noted, they did utterly nothing following 2013, a year and a team that absolutely revitalized baseball in the city of Pittsburgh. The 2013 WC game will go down as one of the greatest sporting events in Pittsburgh history. But, they did nothing. In fact, they let Burnett walk away. They brought in Volquez, which worked out and that prayer was answered.
Fast forward to 2014. The team started off slowly (10-18). But, they turned it on late, and with a late push, got another WC game. Again, they did absolutely nothing to augment a good team, unless you count swapping Russell Martin for Cervelli.
In 2015, they have an emerging ace, brought back Burnett who had arguably the best year of his career, and Liriano was great. McCutchen had another great year. Cervelli had a career year. Marte was an All-Star. And what did they do following a disappointing loss to Arrieta and the Cubs? They traded their starting second baseman, non-tendered their best power bat, and tried to fill the void created by Burnett and Morton with Niese and Vogelsong. In other words, again, they did utterly nothing.
Three straight years of winning records. 280 wins in three years. Anything done to upgrade the team? Nope. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. That's where the fault lies in this.
If you care about the team, and not individual players on the team, which I do, it's not about McCutchen. It's not smart signing an aging veteran who has shown massive signs of decline into his upper 30s. It's not smart for the Yankees, and it's certainly not smart for the Pirates. So, I don't fault them for that whatsoever. But, I do fault them for not trying to augment this team when they were legitimately competitive.
The second problem I have isn't about money at all. It's a problem others have noted many times, and it's the issue of drafting. NH's drafts have been nothing short of abysmal. A few years ago, we had the #1 ranked farm system in baseball. So, something was going right. But, so many of those guys have not panned out.
Cole and Alvarez, while good players, haven't lived up to expectations. Taillon had TJ surgery and then cancer. Kingham had TJ surgery. Tucker had labrum surgery. McGuire was dealt to induce the Jays to take Liriano's salary. Meadows' star seems to have stalled. Jury is still out on Newman and Kramer, but to me, they look like Jordy Mercer types...good players who would start on good teams, but not guys who MAKE a team good.
I said this during the World Series. The Astros seem to have hit on everyone they drafted. Where's our Correa? Where's our Springer? Bregman? Where's our IFAs like Altuve or Gurriel? Where's our diamond in the rough from a draft like 7th rounder Dallas Keuchel?
I don't expect them to draft a hall of famer every year. But, if they want to be competitive, since they can't or won't sign good players and can't or won't trade for them, the only way we can get them is through the draft.
I agree with you in all of this. However, I would add that I see no point whatsoever in making the return include major league relief pitchers. Where is the sense in that?
An observation
One more point to dovetail on what I was saying above. Regarding the Astros and drafting, the only reason they could trade a guy like Moran was because they had a guy like Bregman. In our system, Moran would have been off limits.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
An observation
646C6F584E6B4C432D0 wrote: One more point to dovetail on what I was saying above. Regarding the Astros and drafting, the only reason they could trade a guy like Moran was because they had a guy like Bregman. In our system, Moran would have been off limits.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
An observation
505B535F5A5B400503744D555C5B5B1A575B340 wrote: One more point to dovetail on what I was saying above. Regarding the Astros and drafting, the only reason they could trade a guy like Moran was because they had a guy like Bregman. In our system, Moran would have been off limits.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
I don't blame them for 2015. Just bad luck that year. Regardless, they didn't "go for it," at least not in my estimation. Their rotation still had Morton and Locke in it. They had a hole in right field, with Polanco putting up a .701 OPS. Alvarez was so bad, Hurdle sat him on the bench in the Wild Card game.
They were a good team, great even. They had holes, but most every team has holes. The point though, is that I don't really think they "went" for it. Going for it would have entailed picking up an ace caliber pitcher at the deadline. Of course, as history played itself out, even an ace pitcher would have only given us a tie at best in the WC game.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
I don't blame them for 2015. Just bad luck that year. Regardless, they didn't "go for it," at least not in my estimation. Their rotation still had Morton and Locke in it. They had a hole in right field, with Polanco putting up a .701 OPS. Alvarez was so bad, Hurdle sat him on the bench in the Wild Card game.
They were a good team, great even. They had holes, but most every team has holes. The point though, is that I don't really think they "went" for it. Going for it would have entailed picking up an ace caliber pitcher at the deadline. Of course, as history played itself out, even an ace pitcher would have only given us a tie at best in the WC game.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
An observation
171F1C2B3D183F305E0 wrote: One more point to dovetail on what I was saying above. Regarding the Astros and drafting, the only reason they could trade a guy like Moran was because they had a guy like Bregman. In our system, Moran would have been off limits.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
I don't blame them for 2015. Just bad luck that year. Regardless, they didn't "go for it," at least not in my estimation. Their rotation still had Morton and Locke in it. They had a hole in right field, with Polanco putting up a .701 OPS. Alvarez was so bad, Hurdle sat him on the bench in the Wild Card game.
They were a good team, great even. They had holes, but most every team has holes. The point though, is that I don't really think they "went" for it. Going for it would have entailed picking up an ace caliber pitcher at the deadline. Of course, as history played itself out, even an ace pitcher would have only given us a tie at best in the WC game.
7-2 1.85 ERA was picked up at the deadline. If I recall, that was the best starting pitcher traded for at the deadline? Brought in a set up man and a guy to help Alvarez at first. Brought in a borderline hall of famer to play third base. Brought in another defensive infielder too. Even brought back the guy they traded before the season even started. All deadline deals.
Maybe if Alvarez played more they would have won 101 games? Maybe if Kang doesn't get hurt? We don't know.
If the Royals didn't win it all in 2015, what would they have done? Would they have been a .500 team in 2016? Would they still be selling off their players now?
The Royals won the WS in their window of opportunity. Everything fell into place. The Pirates came up short in the end. They made moves (six deadline moves), but still came up short. Sucks for us, great for them. I wouldn't say because the Pirates didn't win it all that they don't care or didn't try to win.
Also, I guess you could say they upgraded after 2014 by bringing in Kang.
Let's hope the Cardinals hack into our system so we can get some picks. More picks, the more they can pan out even if Huntington is the one drafting.
They went for it in 2015. That was the year they were supposed to win it all. They had the second best record in all of baseball and it wasn't good enough. It is very rare to have the second best record in all of baseball and not win the division.
Huntington took the blame. It is all on him going forward to turn this around. He needs to draft better and find another strategy that separates his team from the others. I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
I don't blame them for 2015. Just bad luck that year. Regardless, they didn't "go for it," at least not in my estimation. Their rotation still had Morton and Locke in it. They had a hole in right field, with Polanco putting up a .701 OPS. Alvarez was so bad, Hurdle sat him on the bench in the Wild Card game.
They were a good team, great even. They had holes, but most every team has holes. The point though, is that I don't really think they "went" for it. Going for it would have entailed picking up an ace caliber pitcher at the deadline. Of course, as history played itself out, even an ace pitcher would have only given us a tie at best in the WC game.
7-2 1.85 ERA was picked up at the deadline. If I recall, that was the best starting pitcher traded for at the deadline? Brought in a set up man and a guy to help Alvarez at first. Brought in a borderline hall of famer to play third base. Brought in another defensive infielder too. Even brought back the guy they traded before the season even started. All deadline deals.
Maybe if Alvarez played more they would have won 101 games? Maybe if Kang doesn't get hurt? We don't know.
If the Royals didn't win it all in 2015, what would they have done? Would they have been a .500 team in 2016? Would they still be selling off their players now?
The Royals won the WS in their window of opportunity. Everything fell into place. The Pirates came up short in the end. They made moves (six deadline moves), but still came up short. Sucks for us, great for them. I wouldn't say because the Pirates didn't win it all that they don't care or didn't try to win.
An observation
[quote
I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
Let's see: 2018 is one year. 2019 is year 2. 2020 is year 3. Unless this is Dogknot3 math, 2022 is not 3 years.
I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
Let's see: 2018 is one year. 2019 is year 2. 2020 is year 3. Unless this is Dogknot3 math, 2022 is not 3 years.
An observation
3C373F3336372C696F182139303737763B37580 wrote: How come no one thinks they geared up for 2015? When they won 98 games. Yes, they came up short. They didn't win the division with the second best record in all of baseball, which is very rare.
I still don't think they were just trying to reduce payroll in 2016. They tried a different approach and the players didn't pan out. Even the star players in 2015 were terrible in 2016. Cole, Liriano, McCutchen, Harrison, Cervelli and Locke. They didn't lose because they brought in Vogelsong. They lost because the star players did nothing and Harrison wasn't better than Walker and no one was better than Alvarez and Morton, who were both run out of town. Bad talent evaluation for the replacements.
Bottom line, after that 98-win season, they failed to build on momentum and extra $$$ to make improvements to the roster. We know the crap that came in. Meanwhile, KC was in a similar situation not too long ago. They are a very similar franchise - size wise and tradition wise. Both had a down two decades before coming back from the dead. They decided to make a deal. They traded their prized prospect, Will Myers to Tampa for James Shields. That was the big move. Nothing like the Cubs or Dodgers or Red Sox do. That move as well as some very minor tweaks got them to a WS and then got them a ring the next year. KC didn't sit with the status quo. Now, they are about to lose Cain, Hosmer and Moustakas, but they won a title. They accomplished something a lot more than Pittsburgh did because they tried despite the same resources.
I still don't think they were just trying to reduce payroll in 2016. They tried a different approach and the players didn't pan out. Even the star players in 2015 were terrible in 2016. Cole, Liriano, McCutchen, Harrison, Cervelli and Locke. They didn't lose because they brought in Vogelsong. They lost because the star players did nothing and Harrison wasn't better than Walker and no one was better than Alvarez and Morton, who were both run out of town. Bad talent evaluation for the replacements.
Bottom line, after that 98-win season, they failed to build on momentum and extra $$$ to make improvements to the roster. We know the crap that came in. Meanwhile, KC was in a similar situation not too long ago. They are a very similar franchise - size wise and tradition wise. Both had a down two decades before coming back from the dead. They decided to make a deal. They traded their prized prospect, Will Myers to Tampa for James Shields. That was the big move. Nothing like the Cubs or Dodgers or Red Sox do. That move as well as some very minor tweaks got them to a WS and then got them a ring the next year. KC didn't sit with the status quo. Now, they are about to lose Cain, Hosmer and Moustakas, but they won a title. They accomplished something a lot more than Pittsburgh did because they tried despite the same resources.
An observation
4C5C5D6A7C7C701F0 wrote: How come no one thinks they geared up for 2015? When they won 98 games. Yes, they came up short. They didn't win the division with the second best record in all of baseball, which is very rare.
I still don't think they were just trying to reduce payroll in 2016. They tried a different approach and the players didn't pan out. Even the star players in 2015 were terrible in 2016. Cole, Liriano, McCutchen, Harrison, Cervelli and Locke. They didn't lose because they brought in Vogelsong. They lost because the star players did nothing and Harrison wasn't better than Walker and no one was better than Alvarez and Morton, who were both run out of town. Bad talent evaluation for the replacements.
Bottom line, after that 98-win season, they failed to build on momentum and extra $$$ to make improvements to the roster. We know the crap that came in. Meanwhile, KC was in a similar situation not too long ago. They are a very similar franchise - size wise and tradition wise. Both had a down two decades before coming back from the dead. They decided to make a deal. They traded their prized prospect, Will Myers to Tampa for James Shields. That was the big move. Nothing like the Cubs or Dodgers or Red Sox do. That move as well as some very minor tweaks got them to a WS and then got them a ring the next year. KC didn't sit with the status quo. Now, they are about to lose Cain, Hosmer and Moustakas, but they won a title. They accomplished something a lot more than Pittsburgh did because they tried despite the same resources.
The Pirates failed in 2015 but had a good (great team). Now they have failed in 2016 and 2017, are not going to contend in 2018 and maybe until who knows? This is not a management team that deserves fan support.
I still don't think they were just trying to reduce payroll in 2016. They tried a different approach and the players didn't pan out. Even the star players in 2015 were terrible in 2016. Cole, Liriano, McCutchen, Harrison, Cervelli and Locke. They didn't lose because they brought in Vogelsong. They lost because the star players did nothing and Harrison wasn't better than Walker and no one was better than Alvarez and Morton, who were both run out of town. Bad talent evaluation for the replacements.
Bottom line, after that 98-win season, they failed to build on momentum and extra $$$ to make improvements to the roster. We know the crap that came in. Meanwhile, KC was in a similar situation not too long ago. They are a very similar franchise - size wise and tradition wise. Both had a down two decades before coming back from the dead. They decided to make a deal. They traded their prized prospect, Will Myers to Tampa for James Shields. That was the big move. Nothing like the Cubs or Dodgers or Red Sox do. That move as well as some very minor tweaks got them to a WS and then got them a ring the next year. KC didn't sit with the status quo. Now, they are about to lose Cain, Hosmer and Moustakas, but they won a title. They accomplished something a lot more than Pittsburgh did because they tried despite the same resources.
The Pirates failed in 2015 but had a good (great team). Now they have failed in 2016 and 2017, are not going to contend in 2018 and maybe until who knows? This is not a management team that deserves fan support.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
An observation
41445340166764250 wrote: [quote
I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
Let's see: 2018 is one year. 2019 is year 2. 2020 is year 3. Unless this is Dogknot3 math, 2022 is not 3 years.
I didn't say it was. Read it again. Ugh!
I give him three years to show some promise. By 2022, they need be in playoff contention. If not, this cycle will start again with probably a new GM.
Let's see: 2018 is one year. 2019 is year 2. 2020 is year 3. Unless this is Dogknot3 math, 2022 is not 3 years.
I didn't say it was. Read it again. Ugh!