Can a team pull together if the veterans are this grumpy?

[rucker59@gmail.com]

434641474F455C41485B5D50290 wrote: One of Freese's comments was about watching players on the bench goofing around and having fun as they were losing to the Cubs and Maddon 10-2 last year.  I have a real issue with him for deciding to rant on the team and organization to the media now with all of that stuff on his chest.  If he is such a leader, he should have addressed it as he saw it coming.  If he saw guys goofing around in a 10-2 loss, WS MVP Freese should have gone over and shot it down.  A leader changes moral and demonstrates optimistic and realistic leadership.  A leader does not complain to the media about it a year later.



Maybe he did those things and couldn't affect change.  If that's that case, than I'm wrong.



I agree with everything he said.  I agree with Harrison.  We all do.  We are all sick of seeing this team be controlled by an owner who will never invest enough resources into it to win.  We are all sick of watching the FO mismanage the little resources they are allowed to control.  We are all sick of watching the players play below expectations.  However, I just can't see much good with players on the team speaking out against the FO, the management and coaches and their teammates.  This is so dysfunctional.



If I were a reporter, I'd ask both Freese and Harrison how they think a person fixes the problems at hand?  What do they (Freese and Harrison) need to do to solve these problems?  I think that question was asked to Freese and he barely answered it turning it quickly around on the whole organization.  Again, he's not wrong, but I didn't hear him take much responsibility or contribute to solving the problems.  Leaders don't complain about problems, they solve them


100% agree with this.




100% disagree.



If this was an article about Freese sticking it to his teammates then I’d agree. It’s not. He speaking into a culture that he, as a long time profession, knows is not the culture of a winning organization. I don’t see him blaming anyone for messing around while getting trashed as he is saying this is the culture of the team - get trashed, who cares?



And he took responsibility upon himself as well.



It may not be pretty to see, but with the absolute BS Clint spun and Neal spins, I’d say it’s rather refreshing to see just how deep the malaise of this organization reaches. I’ve already posted: this organization holds no one accountable. This is the result.

[Quail]

Freese's reference to the 10-2 rain delay game last year was simply him giving an example of a general problem which he was addressing. As any good speaker or speech writer knows giving an example of the issue you're discussing is appropriate. If he hadn't given an example some folks would have undoubtedly questioned the validity of his statements because he gave no concrete examples of the non-winning attitude to which he was referring in general.



As for his leadership (or lack thereof) at the time we have no idea if he made any comments to his teammates and their attitude. If he kept his feelings to himself perhaps it was because he felt he should defer to the guys who were viewed as the obvious team leaders at that time such as Cutch, JHay and Cole.

[Roberto218]

PMike hit the nail on the head. Leaders lead. Period. Cutch was a leader. When Chapman beaned him a few years back, the Bucs did not retaliate. Cutch was angry. His next game, he was swinging so hard, he hurt his rib. AJ Burnett would have nailed the next Red up if he had been pitching. Hurdle backed off. Harrison is a tough competitor but he ran us out of innings a few times last year. Freese is an okay player, but nothing special. They are each making good money..more in one year than most of us will make in our lifetime. That being said, Nutting is pocketing profits of $40 million a year, while the value of the Pirates has gone up 1000%. He could have extended Cutch. Instead he ripped the heart and soul out of us and the team we have loved all our lives. You don't trade Clemente, Stargell or Cutch. The Reds bean Cutch, the Bucs should bean Votto. Blass would do it, Walk would do it, Burnett would do it, Friend would do it....Freese and Josh are right, but they should rip Nutting and NH privately and face to face, not in the press.

[Bobster21]

506D606770766D30333A020 wrote: PMike hit the nail on the head. Leaders lead. Period. Cutch was a leader. When Chapman beaned him a few years back, the Bucs did not retaliate. Cutch was angry. His  next game, he was swinging so hard, he hurt his rib. AJ Burnett would have nailed the next Red up if he had been pitching. Hurdle backed off. Harrison is a tough competitor but he ran us out of innings a few times last year. Freese is an okay player, but nothing special. They are each making good money..more in one year than most of us will make in our lifetime. That being said, Nutting is pocketing profits of $40 million a year, while the value of the Pirates has gone up 1000%. He could have extended Cutch. Instead he ripped the heart and soul out of us and the team we have loved all our lives. You don't trade Clemente, Stargell or Cutch. The Reds bean Cutch, the Bucs should bean Votto. Blass would do it, Walk would do it, Burnett would do it, Friend would do it....Freese and Josh are right, but they should rip Nutting and NH privately and face to face, not in the press.
I disagree in this instance. This pattern with the FO has gone on too long. Meanwhile, the FO always tries to pull the wool over our eyes. Their comments this year have been ridiculous, not to mention contradictory. They know the fans are upset and they try to neutralize that by insisting the fans have the wrong idea. By going public with their comments, Freese and Harrison put the FO on notice that everyone now knows this isn't some misconception by the fans, but the players who are obviously much closer to the situation are confirming the criticisms of the fans. If this is done behind closed doors, the FO just sweeps it under the carpet and can continue to say the fans just don't understand what the FO is doing. But now the media is reporting that there are players in the dugout who see the same things the fans have complained about. It might not make any difference but I think the FO now has to realize that they are under a microscope because it's no longer just the fans who talk about a lack of commitment to winning. The media and even some players see it too.

[dogknot17@yahoo.co]

I don't think Burnett ever retaliated. He always said the game was too close to do that. Tony Watson was the pitcher who had his players back when it came to the bean ball.



I always hated that as the Pirates were hit so many times. McCutchen was often targeted. I lost a lot of respect for Kirk Gibson (Ari) after he waited for the final at bat on their last meeting to drill McCutchen.



Back to leadership, I only thought of Burnett and Martin as leaders. Burnett was vocal, well respected (and still is) and Martin had such a great work ethic.

[PMike]

1A373A2B2C3D2A6A69580 wrote: PMike hit the nail on the head. Leaders lead. Period. Cutch was a leader. When Chapman beaned him a few years back, the Bucs did not retaliate. Cutch was angry. His  next game, he was swinging so hard, he hurt his rib. AJ Burnett would have nailed the next Red up if he had been pitching. Hurdle backed off. Harrison is a tough competitor but he ran us out of innings a few times last year. Freese is an okay player, but nothing special. They are each making good money..more in one year than most of us will make in our lifetime. That being said, Nutting is pocketing profits of $40 million a year, while the value of the Pirates has gone up 1000%. He could have extended Cutch. Instead he ripped the heart and soul out of us and the team we have loved all our lives. You don't trade Clemente, Stargell or Cutch. The Reds bean Cutch, the Bucs should bean Votto. Blass would do it, Walk would do it, Burnett would do it, Friend would do it....Freese and Josh are right, but they should rip Nutting and NH privately and face to face, not in the press.
I disagree in this instance. This pattern with the FO has gone on too long. Meanwhile, the FO always tries to pull the wool over our eyes. Their comments this year have been ridiculous, not to mention contradictory. They know the fans are upset and they try to neutralize that by insisting the fans have the wrong idea. By going public with their comments, Freese and Harrison put the FO on notice that everyone now knows this isn't some misconception by the fans, but the players who are obviously much closer to the situation are confirming the criticisms of the fans. If this is done behind closed doors, the FO just sweeps it under the carpet and can continue to say the fans just don't understand what the FO is doing. But now the media is reporting that there are players in the dugout who see the same things the fans have complained about. It might not make any difference but I think the FO now has to realize that they are under a microscope because it's no longer just the fans who talk about a lack of commitment to winning. The media and even some players see it too.


I agree with you Bobster, but I still wonder, "What's the endgame?" What's the hope for Freese and Harrison? What's the point of all of this? I have a hard time seeing anything positive come from this. I don't think the owner cares. The FO continues to spin this better than Baghdad Bob. Hurdles seems like he lives in a world of puppy dogs and rainbows and everything is awesome. The only result I see in this is that the older players are creating a really unhealthy clubhouse almost admitting that they don't see hope or an ability to compete. That is a terrible message to send to young players at the MLB level and thru the system. At this point in the season, there is always a chance to compete. The senior players have to believe that. If they don't, what's the point?

[rucker59@gmail.com]

534E6A6866030 wrote: PMike hit the nail on the head. Leaders lead. Period. Cutch was a leader. When Chapman beaned him a few years back, the Bucs did not retaliate. Cutch was angry. His  next game, he was swinging so hard, he hurt his rib. AJ Burnett would have nailed the next Red up if he had been pitching. Hurdle backed off. Harrison is a tough competitor but he ran us out of innings a few times last year. Freese is an okay player, but nothing special. They are each making good money..more in one year than most of us will make in our lifetime. That being said, Nutting is pocketing profits of $40 million a year, while the value of the Pirates has gone up 1000%. He could have extended Cutch. Instead he ripped the heart and soul out of us and the team we have loved all our lives. You don't trade Clemente, Stargell or Cutch. The Reds bean Cutch, the Bucs should bean Votto. Blass would do it, Walk would do it, Burnett would do it, Friend would do it....Freese and Josh are right, but they should rip Nutting and NH privately and face to face, not in the press.
I disagree in this instance. This pattern with the FO has gone on too long. Meanwhile, the FO always tries to pull the wool over our eyes. Their comments this year have been ridiculous, not to mention contradictory. They know the fans are upset and they try to neutralize that by insisting the fans have the wrong idea. By going public with their comments, Freese and Harrison put the FO on notice that everyone now knows this isn't some misconception by the fans, but the players who are obviously much closer to the situation are confirming the criticisms of the fans. If this is done behind closed doors, the FO just sweeps it under the carpet and can continue to say the fans just don't understand what the FO is doing. But now the media is reporting that there are players in the dugout who see the same things the fans have complained about. It might not make any difference but I think the FO now has to realize that they are under a microscope because it's no longer just the fans who talk about a lack of commitment to winning. The media and even some players see it too.


I agree with you Bobster, but I still wonder, "What's the endgame?"  What's the hope for Freese and Harrison?  What's the point of all of this?  I have a hard time seeing anything positive come from this.  I don't think the owner cares.  The FO continues to spin this better than Baghdad Bob.  Hurdles seems like he lives in a world of puppy dogs and rainbows and everything is awesome.  The only result I see in this is that the older players are creating a really unhealthy clubhouse almost admitting that they don't see hope or an ability to compete.  That is a terrible message to send to young players at the MLB level and thru the system.  At this point in the season, there is always a chance to compete.  The senior players have to believe that.  If they don't, what's the point?


The truth.



Freese is not suggesting the players should quit trying in some sort of protest, he’s not planning to kill the spirit of the young guys. he’s telling us the players attitudes have already been influenced, negatively; the spirit of the young guys is being killed already. He’s not telling Bell or Taillon they don’t have a future with the Pirates, he’s revealing that the young players already believe that to be the case.



I think he’s hoping that a new culture of accountability can at least be gained, and maybe reap positive results.



I think David’s intent has been lost: he’s not some malcontent sowing seeds of discontent. He’s trying to shine a light on a losing culture. He heaped blame on himself. Maybe this will cause some soul searching. Sseems like a helpful thing to me.

[Quail]

Pirates management and ownership have consistently used the media to propagate its disingenuous propaganda to attempt to influence public opinion. It seems only fair that some players are now using the media as a public forum to counter their B.S with insights from the clubhouse. Speaking truth to power behind closed doors accomplishes nothing, like shining a light under a basket.

[Bobster21]

PMike, I don't know what the endgame is either. This FO is so rooted in the concept of deceiving the fan base while sinking the team for profit that they aren't going to change just because players are acknowledging this sham. It's basically just players revealing that it isn't just the fans who are discontent with the FO scuttling the Pirate ship. I suppose if any good can come of it, it would be that perhaps with players and media now echoing what the fans have thought all along (while the FO denied it) it can't help the attendance the FO still hopes to maintain via deception. Nothing will change until profits decrease and maybe this will help grease those skids.



And BTW, PMike, your comment, "Hurdles seems like he lives in a world of puppy dogs and rainbows and everything is awesome" is one of the best lines I've read here in a long time. LOL.

[dogknot17@yahoo.co]

The media has always been against the Pirates. Now, with social media it got worse.



This is the first time more than one player spoke up that I recall. Here and there, a player has spoke up, especially around trade deadline. I also think it goes back to the media. The media is the one asking questions. They are usually ignored when the team is winning or it is all positive.



Winning solves everything. Attitudes change.