OnlyBucs

7B575F585374435545360 wrote: In looking at the old threads that were posted I can read of how I was skeptical of adding Archer at the time, and grew more skeptical with the addition of Baz in the trade. 



As most have stated, NH got snookered in the Archer deal, Kela has added very little, and the sum of the parts for Cole are not equal to a top of rotation starter.   So --- Where should the Pirates go from here?



1)  Starting Pitching.  Starting pitching appears that it is going to be a real problem throughout this season.  Perhaps Williams will give the team a bump, but Archer and Lyles don't appear to be dependable starters, Musgrove periodically demonstrates periods of potential success, and Keller has been a real disappointment in his first 2 starts.  I also don't think that we will see Tallion back with the team until late in the season if at all.  I also don't consider Brault a real long-term option for the rotation.  In short, it appears that the team needs pitching reinforcements for the rotation for next season and beyond.



2)  Bullpen.  Bullpens are often unpredictable.  Vasquez appears solid, however, the other two better pitchers in the pen, Liriano and Crick, may not be long term options.  And, the Pirates should count their blessings if they somehow uncover even one remotely dependable reliever out of the mix of other arms on the team. 



3)  Outfield.  The one place where there could be a surplus of talent.  Polanco is still a mystery (semi) talent, but there could be someone to trade for value here.



4) Infield.  Kang starting to hit would actually provide the Pirates a shop him.  Moran could have some value too if the Bucs believe that Hayes will be ready next year.



5)  Catching.  Little to nothing after Diaz and Stallings.  Cervelli is basically history, even if he does return.



Sadly, I don't see the Bucs climbing back into the race this year; not enough pitching.  And, the prospects for 2020 do not look good because there similarly will not be enough pitching.  As such, and as much as it pains me, I believe the Bucs need to reverse course from the misdirected Archer and Kela deals and trade players who have the potential to garner a return for talent that can arrive by late 2020.



Marte, Polanco, Cabrera and Dickerson should all be available for potential trade.  Cabrera clearly should be dealt; he has no future value.  I question if Dickerson would net much return at all, and have similar concerns about Polanco.  Marte is the one player who may net the Pirates some real return, particularly because he is playing better as of yet, he is a true centerfielder and he is cost controlled.   



In the infield I would shop Moran and Kang if he begins to hit at all.  Doubt either returns much though. 



And, as bad as the pen is, perhaps it is time to try and get some value for Liriano and Crick, and if they are blown away with a deal, Vasquez.



I know this thread is about accountability.  Going the route I am suggesting would require management to state that the team, as currently constructed, cannot compete this year, and likely next year, if more talent isn't added.  In some places, this would equate to ownership decided to spend more to add free agents. In Pittsburgh, we know that Nutting will not do such (Lonnie Chisenall anyone), so the only real hope appears to be swinging a few deals that strips the club of some of its existing talent to try and restock the team for the future.



Horrible to contemplate, but the Bucs need more talent.      


I sure don't want NH working on a rebuild. If the decision is made to do anything other than ride out this season I want NH to be replaced. He may be an okay GM overall but the Bucs need a great one to have a chance of being successful within the parameters set by ownership. Great return for Cutch but the Cole deal didn't bring back as good of talent as he gave up to get Archer. When this team misses on a major deal that just becomes a big set back.

Nutting We need a Billy Beane clone in the worst way.

765A52555E794E58483B0 wrote: In looking at the old threads that were posted I can read of how I was skeptical of adding Archer at the time, and grew more skeptical with the addition of Baz in the trade. 



As most have stated, NH got snookered in the Archer deal, Kela has added very little, and the sum of the parts for Cole are not equal to a top of rotation starter.   So --- Where should the Pirates go from here?



1)  Starting Pitching.  Starting pitching appears that it is going to be a real problem throughout this season.  Perhaps Williams will give the team a bump, but Archer and Lyles don't appear to be dependable starters, Musgrove periodically demonstrates periods of potential success, and Keller has been a real disappointment in his first 2 starts.  I also don't think that we will see Tallion back with the team until late in the season if at all.  I also don't consider Brault a real long-term option for the rotation.  In short, it appears that the team needs pitching reinforcements for the rotation for next season and beyond.



2)  Bullpen.  Bullpens are often unpredictable.  Vasquez appears solid, however, the other two better pitchers in the pen, Liriano and Crick, may not be long term options.  And, the Pirates should count their blessings if they somehow uncover even one remotely dependable reliever out of the mix of other arms on the team. 



3)  Outfield.  The one place where there could be a surplus of talent.  Polanco is still a mystery (semi) talent, but there could be someone to trade for value here.



4) Infield.  Kang starting to hit would actually provide the Pirates a shop him.  Moran could have some value too if the Bucs believe that Hayes will be ready next year.



5)  Catching.  Little to nothing after Diaz and Stallings.  Cervelli is basically history, even if he does return.



Sadly, I don't see the Bucs climbing back into the race this year; not enough pitching.  And, the prospects for 2020 do not look good because there similarly will not be enough pitching.  As such, and as much as it pains me, I believe the Bucs need to reverse course from the misdirected Archer and Kela deals and trade players who have the potential to garner a return for talent that can arrive by late 2020.



Marte, Polanco, Cabrera and Dickerson should all be available for potential trade.  Cabrera clearly should be dealt; he has no future value.  I question if Dickerson would net much return at all, and have similar concerns about Polanco.  Marte is the one player who may net the Pirates some real return, particularly because he is playing better as of yet, he is a true centerfielder and he is cost controlled.   



In the infield I would shop Moran and Kang if he begins to hit at all.  Doubt either returns much though. 



And, as bad as the pen is, perhaps it is time to try and get some value for Liriano and Crick, and if they are blown away with a deal, Vasquez.



I know this thread is about accountability.  Going the route I am suggesting would require management to state that the team, as currently constructed, cannot compete this year, and likely next year, if more talent isn't added.  In some places, this would equate to ownership decided to spend more to add free agents. In Pittsburgh, we know that Nutting will not do such (Lonnie Chisenall anyone), so the only real hope appears to be swinging a few deals that strips the club of some of its existing talent to try and restock the team for the future.



Horrible to contemplate, but the Bucs need more talent.      




I had predicted that Glasnow would have as good or better record than Archer in 2019. Worst trade I've seen in the 60 years I've been following baseball . Archer was 2 years removed from being an Ace . Hurdle f'd up Meadows by playing him like every 3rd game after he tore it up. Glasnow we've discussed enough i guess