OnlyBucs

Yes, the problem stems from Nutting. Any Pirate GM is financially constrained in the players he can acquire and how long he can keep his players. And a well established, successful GM would never want to work under such conditions. Any Pirate manager is limited in the talent in front of him. And a well established successful manager would never want to work under such conditions. So we get below average GMs, managers and players.

725F52434455420201300 wrote: Yes, the problem stems from Nutting. Any Pirate GM is financially constrained in the players he can acquire and how long he can keep his players. And a well established, successful GM would never want to work under such conditions. Any Pirate manager is limited in the talent in front of him. And a well established successful manager would never want to work under such conditions. So we get below average GMs, managers and players.


Right as rain. And until MLB changes so that each franchise must spend the same amount on payroll, we'll never see another championship again with Bob Nutting as owner.

6A3C2A3E312B3B303D2A183F35393134763B580 wrote: Yes, the problem stems from Nutting. Any Pirate GM is financially constrained in the players he can acquire and how long he can keep his players. And a well established, successful GM would never want to work under such conditions. Any Pirate manager is limited in the talent in front of him. And a well established successful manager would never want to work under such conditions. So we get below average GMs, managers and players.


Right as rain.  And until MLB changes so that each franchise must spend the same amount on payroll, we'll never see another championship again with Bob Nutting as owner.
I don't think there will ever be a cap in MLB. The big market teams drive the business and don't want competition from teams across the board.

5E737E6F68796E2E2D1C0 wrote: Yes, the problem stems from Nutting. Any Pirate GM is financially constrained in the players he can acquire and how long he can keep his players. And a well established, successful GM would never want to work under such conditions. Any Pirate manager is limited in the talent in front of him. And a well established successful manager would never want to work under such conditions. So we get below average GMs, managers and players.


I'm not sure that Hurdle or Cherington came "cheap" or came below average in compensation.  I've never seen those figures across the game, or even the team.  Both had track records of some kind.



You haven't mentioned this next part, so this isn't directed at you; just a general observation.



When fans like me talk about financial expectations, so many counter us with "Yankees" or "Dodgers" talk.  We don't have those expectations, so we never say it.  But, I see no earthly reason why we can't be in the same neighborhood as teams in cities more comparable to Pittsburgh.  And, people will argue against that, too.



The bottom line is- BOB grew up a family friend of the Rooneys.  He believes that, because the Steelers turned around in the late 60s and early 70s using the draft wisely, that the Pirates should do the same. 



It's a nice high school science project, but reality says.....teams that win (the world series) hang onto guys that the Pirates have let go.



Nutting ***says*** one thing.  Does another.



And, we'll never know the truth.  No owner's opening books voluntarily.  I think that they are perfectly captable to field a roster better than they've been.  Not to the extent of top market teams, but better than the status quo.

5E737E6F68796E2E2D1C0 wrote: Yes, the problem stems from Nutting. Any Pirate GM is financially constrained in the players he can acquire and how long he can keep his players. And a well established, successful GM would never want to work under such conditions. Any Pirate manager is limited in the talent in front of him. And a well established successful manager would never want to work under such conditions. So we get below average GMs, managers and players.


Right as rain.  And until MLB changes so that each franchise must spend the same amount on payroll, we'll never see another championship again with Bob Nutting as owner.
I don't think there will ever be a cap in MLB. The big market teams drive the business and don't want competition from teams across the board.




I've felt that for some time now. It's easier, and better business for the large markets to just give franchises like the Pirates money, preserving them so that they can fill out the schedule and knowing they'll never truly compete. Imagine, wealthy people like Nutting accepting welfare. I wonder if he sees the irony?

Yeah, I get really annoyed when people counter the money argument with "They can't spend like the Yankees, etc." No one expects that. We just don't need to consistently be in the 27-30 range of payrolls.



As for Hurdle and BC, they were well paid. But well paid for mgrs and execs pales in comparison to what well paid players get. Hurdle had managed only 1 other team and had losing seasons in 6+ of 7+ years there. His lone winning season got him to the WS (where he was swept) on the basis of one enormous hot streak. On Sept 1 the Rockies were just 69-66. They went 21-7 the rest of the way and swept the Phils and Dbacks. But that one hot streak wasn't enough. They went back to losing the next year and the following year he was released after 46 games. So he was a "name" manager with a somewhat dubious track record. After sitting out 2010 I guess he was happy to get an offer from the Pirates. BC has experience as a GM so I wonder what his motivation was.

Hurdle was the hot commodity on the market entering that off-season. So much so that he was going to the Mets, but the Bucs nipped that in the bud. We told him to cancel his interview there, or the offer gets pulled. Or, so we were told in the press.



Now, one could argue whether we should have let him. I'm not in that group.



At the very least, he managed the team that ended our world record losing season streak and got the team into post-season play for the first time since the Lincoln administration. So, there is that.

I was never a fan of Hurdle. Wasn't excited when he was hired after all that losing in Colorado and 1 great hot streak. But I'll credit him with being an average MLB manager. Relied very heavily on formulas as most managers do. That works when you have the personnel to effectively fill the specific roles assigned to them. So he could be successful with a strong roster.



He came to the Bucs at an opportune time with Cutch and Walker entering their prime and Marte ready to emerge. Burnett was a pleasant surprise after appearing to be washed up with NY. Hanrahan was parlayed into a deal for Melancon. Jason Grilli came lout of nowhere. Liriano and Volquez were nice surprises, Russell Martin did better than expected and Cole came along. Much of this was made possible by increasing the payroll to a little over 75% of the MLB average. And I suspect Hurdle was not the only manager who would have broken the losing streak at that time.



But when Nutting pulled the rug out from under Hurdle in 2016, he continued his adherence to formulas and was slow to make adjustments even without the personnel to make them work. He lost the clubhouse and too many players seemed to underperform. The Pirates need a sensible manager who doesn't try to manage via formulas when it requires square pegs into round holes. So far Shelton has no formulas but also no common sense approaches.



BTW-I was glad to hear Bob Walk talk about managerial formulas the other day. He noted that it's a way for managers to deflect blame by assigning roles to players and if they fail he can point the finger at them rather than trying different ideas that might work but could elicit criticism if they don't. I've always thought that was a motivation for things like the 7th, 8th and 9th inning BP specialists as well as batting someone in a particular spot in the order and not moving him if he isn't hitting.

My "choice," 99% of the time is a guy like a Russell, a McShelton, a Lloyd, a Tracy, or one of their twins.



So, landing Hurdle (as oppose to yet another LMG OJT we get sold on)?  Hands down, I take Hurdle.



Excited?  No.  I don't fall in love with celebrity.  I was happy enough, though.  A LMG OJT guy pisses me off.  I'm tired of bargain basement.  They're rarely a bargain, and into the basement we always go.

So, Heredia and Osuna sent to Altoona. Why are Del Pozo and Dyson still here?