162334343F0634343F3834510 wrote: Differences, Philosophy-Style
Epstein: Give me guys who hit in 2021 and don't dump any who do.
Cherington: Bye.
Is this one of those times you continuously bash BC while claiming OBN does not allow you to bash BC? Legit criticism is one thing. But turning every comment into a vague BC bashing without anything to support your comment is extremity tiresome.
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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GreenWeenie
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Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
I didn't bash Cherington, Eckstein, or anyone else. It's just the way it is. Two guys with different views on how the job should be handled. The boss is always going to win, provided that he has The Man's support. I assume that BC has that support.
If that's considered "bashing," then it's bashing.
If that's considered "bashing," then it's bashing.
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Bobster21
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
596C7B7B70497B7B70777B1E0 wrote: Differences, Philosophy-Style
Epstein: Give me guys who hit in 2021 and don't dump any who do.
Cherington: Bye.
7F4A5D5D566F5D5D56515D380 wrote: I didn't bash Cherington, Eckstein, or anyone else. It's just the way it is. Two guys with different views on how the job should be handled. The boss is always going to win, provided that he has The Man's support. I assume that BC has that support.
If that's considered "bashing," then it's bashing.
You made the point that the philosophical difference was that Eckstein wanted better players and Cherington refused to get better players or keep the ones he had. If that was the issue in firing Eckstein then why have a batting coach at all? The players are who they are. There's only so much the coach can do. A more rational reason for firing the coach would be that they didn't like how he went about instructing the players he had. And that as prospects come up to the MLB roster in the next year or 2, the Pirates feel that they can do better than Eckstein's in working with those players. There are any number of possibilities as to why a team fires a coach and replaces him with another. But this was just another chance for you to hijack a discussion not about "how bad BC is" and make it about "how bad BC is." Very tiresome.
Epstein: Give me guys who hit in 2021 and don't dump any who do.
Cherington: Bye.
7F4A5D5D566F5D5D56515D380 wrote: I didn't bash Cherington, Eckstein, or anyone else. It's just the way it is. Two guys with different views on how the job should be handled. The boss is always going to win, provided that he has The Man's support. I assume that BC has that support.
If that's considered "bashing," then it's bashing.
You made the point that the philosophical difference was that Eckstein wanted better players and Cherington refused to get better players or keep the ones he had. If that was the issue in firing Eckstein then why have a batting coach at all? The players are who they are. There's only so much the coach can do. A more rational reason for firing the coach would be that they didn't like how he went about instructing the players he had. And that as prospects come up to the MLB roster in the next year or 2, the Pirates feel that they can do better than Eckstein's in working with those players. There are any number of possibilities as to why a team fires a coach and replaces him with another. But this was just another chance for you to hijack a discussion not about "how bad BC is" and make it about "how bad BC is." Very tiresome.
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BellevueBuc
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Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
6055424249704242494E42270 wrote: Scapegoat.
How so? Because it's BC doing the chopping? I find it interesting how you say in one breath the guy does nothing, yet in the other criticize every move he makes.
Oh that's right, this is going to be a "BC can do no wrong" set up. We all know your troll calling card.
The only thing Cherington has to do with it is that he went into the season giving the guy n no power to work with. The best hitter did well with Eckstein; not so well without him.
This was made to look like they're doing something.
Going into the season, we had less chance than the Christians did against lions. That's not on Eckstein.
Easier to fire the hitting coach than it is to fire the GM.
If you already know what I will write, then why bother to ask your questions?
Is the best hitter Frazier? The guy that had a clear career year in the first half?
Not having power did not matter for Eckstein, he preferred less power.
How so? Because it's BC doing the chopping? I find it interesting how you say in one breath the guy does nothing, yet in the other criticize every move he makes.
Oh that's right, this is going to be a "BC can do no wrong" set up. We all know your troll calling card.
The only thing Cherington has to do with it is that he went into the season giving the guy n no power to work with. The best hitter did well with Eckstein; not so well without him.
This was made to look like they're doing something.
Going into the season, we had less chance than the Christians did against lions. That's not on Eckstein.
Easier to fire the hitting coach than it is to fire the GM.
If you already know what I will write, then why bother to ask your questions?
Is the best hitter Frazier? The guy that had a clear career year in the first half?
Not having power did not matter for Eckstein, he preferred less power.
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SammyKhalifa
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Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
It's strange timing. I know we'll never know the real reason (or at least we shouldn't). Was there something specific they didn't like?
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BellevueBuc
- Posts: 343
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Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
537572676E6275636B000 wrote: For our sake, I sure hope that The Golden Boy does better with hiring the new and improved hitting coach than he did when he hired the manager and pitchiing coach.
NH's last full season pitching staff posted a 5.18 ERA. BC's current squad is at 5.05. That's with 3 NH holdovers in the rotation. Already looks to be an improvement to me...and that's subtracting Taillon, Musgrove, Williams, and Archer. That's sounds like improvement to me with his guy.
The offense is a tick over a run per game worse than 2019. That sounds like regression to me with the guy he just fired. Sure you can whine about Bell being gone....after all 2019 was his big year. But what happened to Bell in 2020? Why has he found his power stroke once again away from the NH guy? And this season he had a healthy Polanco, care to explain what happened there?
Looks like BC's hires are making better turds from a lot of the crap NH left behind.
I would say the pitching performance is the same as 2019, the raw ERA numbers are so close and the ERA+ is the same. But the expectations for that 2019 staff had to be much higher, they had multiple vet pitchers that stunk, and Trevor Williams and Musgrove disappointed. I would say that is a talent issue.
Hitting is a different story, looking at how players went the wrong direction, like Bell, as you pointed out. Same with Newman.
NH's last full season pitching staff posted a 5.18 ERA. BC's current squad is at 5.05. That's with 3 NH holdovers in the rotation. Already looks to be an improvement to me...and that's subtracting Taillon, Musgrove, Williams, and Archer. That's sounds like improvement to me with his guy.
The offense is a tick over a run per game worse than 2019. That sounds like regression to me with the guy he just fired. Sure you can whine about Bell being gone....after all 2019 was his big year. But what happened to Bell in 2020? Why has he found his power stroke once again away from the NH guy? And this season he had a healthy Polanco, care to explain what happened there?
Looks like BC's hires are making better turds from a lot of the crap NH left behind.
I would say the pitching performance is the same as 2019, the raw ERA numbers are so close and the ERA+ is the same. But the expectations for that 2019 staff had to be much higher, they had multiple vet pitchers that stunk, and Trevor Williams and Musgrove disappointed. I would say that is a talent issue.
Hitting is a different story, looking at how players went the wrong direction, like Bell, as you pointed out. Same with Newman.
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BellevueBuc
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Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
655047474C7547474C4B47220 wrote: Your first couple of sentences was pretty much my point. We had Frazier and Reynolds, little else. Harry Houdini couldn't make Polanco a .300 hitter.
Mazzoni might have had a hand in developing Smoltz, who came to the Braves early on from Detroit. To your point, Steve Avery didn't fare as well, so he was dealt.
Cherington deserves to have his guys. I'm assuming that he and Eckstein didn't jell well enough.
Still, results are results. Neither our run generation nor our run prevention are any good.
I give no passes to anyone in the organization for it after this season ends. No excuses.
This just ignores 2020 happened.
Mazzoni might have had a hand in developing Smoltz, who came to the Braves early on from Detroit. To your point, Steve Avery didn't fare as well, so he was dealt.
Cherington deserves to have his guys. I'm assuming that he and Eckstein didn't jell well enough.
Still, results are results. Neither our run generation nor our run prevention are any good.
I give no passes to anyone in the organization for it after this season ends. No excuses.
This just ignores 2020 happened.
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johnfluharty
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
61535F5F4B795A535E5B5453320 wrote: It's strange timing. I know we'll never know the real reason (or at least we shouldn't). Was there something specific they didn't like?
I read somewhere (I forget where) that his approach was very contact-oriented, leading to higher batting averages but reduced power.
I read somewhere (I forget where) that his approach was very contact-oriented, leading to higher batting averages but reduced power.
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BellevueBuc
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Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
45636471787463757D160 wrote: Epstein fired due to philosophical differences, not any individual performances.
This is a great point, and probably a big factor. Eckstein came in and said he would emphasize increased contact and line drives. That is exactly what happened. Talent can be ignored, he was successful at introducing his plan, the Pirates made tons of contact, near the bottom in Ks. Pirates led the league in batting average one year during his tenure. Did a great job proving why batting average is not looked at the same way anymore.
This is a great point, and probably a big factor. Eckstein came in and said he would emphasize increased contact and line drives. That is exactly what happened. Talent can be ignored, he was successful at introducing his plan, the Pirates made tons of contact, near the bottom in Ks. Pirates led the league in batting average one year during his tenure. Did a great job proving why batting average is not looked at the same way anymore.
Re: Pirates Fire Eckstein
0C3E32322614373E3336393E5F0 wrote: It's strange timing. I know we'll never know the real reason (or at least we shouldn't). Was there something specific they didn't like?
What I posted was directly from Shelton. They had philosophical differences, and it wasn't the philosophy the Pirates wanted throughout their organization. No mention of what that was, but previous posters mentioned Ecksteins contact approach.
As others have also mentioned, this does allow him a chance to get a leg up for another job before other coaches get canned in the MLB coaching carousel.
I believe that soon pretty much everyone that was a NH holdover will be gone.
What I posted was directly from Shelton. They had philosophical differences, and it wasn't the philosophy the Pirates wanted throughout their organization. No mention of what that was, but previous posters mentioned Ecksteins contact approach.
As others have also mentioned, this does allow him a chance to get a leg up for another job before other coaches get canned in the MLB coaching carousel.
I believe that soon pretty much everyone that was a NH holdover will be gone.