OnlyBucs

46435447116063220 wrote: Yeah, Wandy Rodriguez is an example. Might be the only example, but it is the example. Always amazes me how some people can be so "absolute" on an opinion.



Also, there's a first time for everything. Using the rationale that just because something has never happened it will not ever happen in the future is just foolhardy.




More to the point, it certainly doesn't mean that they should just jump on whatever the current offer is.  Several other teams seem to think it is a bad deal.  I somehow doubt they are just doing that to create hearsay on behalf of the Pirates to fool their fans.



Yes they should make more deals using prospects.  No that doesn't mean this one is good.

29202839374D0 wrote:



Prospect worshipers will never be reasoned with.  It's not you, it's them.   There is always the "next #3 hitter penciled in for the better part of a decade" waiting at some level of the minors. 



..


Or in this case, it's every team wanting to trade for this guy.  Is Brian Cashman a "prospect worshiper" working on behalf of making excuses for the Pirates for some reason?


Just give me an example of us trading prospects for an established starting pitcher.   We've had five years where we were competitors at the deadline or on opening day.   We've "shown interest" in a boatload of starting pitchers.      



Which one did we trade for?


Zane Smith

Wilmer "Vinegar Bend" Mizell

25203724720300410 wrote: Yeah, Wandy Rodriguez is an example. Might be the only example, but it is the example. Always amazes me how some people can be so "absolute" on an opinion.



Also, there's a first time for everything. Using the rationale that just because something has never happened it will not ever happen in the future is just foolhardy.


Using 5  years of actual examples in similarly situated off-seasons, to demonstrate that it is very improbable it will happen.   There are no guarantees.



It's possible JHay will compete for a batting title again this year.  He's done it once before just as we traded for Wandy once before in 2012.   Which is a good example I had forgotten about

And also, look at how that trade worked out?  There's an example of two beloved prospects.  Two players in Grossman and Rudy Owens that the prospect people had been salivating over for years.   Grossman especially.



They all were nothing that worked out.   Amounted to nothing at all, as a lot of these guys do.   We got a decent season out of Wandy and then an injury and we traded a bunch of nothing for him.



Our prospect rankings are riddled with these guys and we badly overvalue them. Somehow pirates FANS overvalue the prospects lol. They're so talked up and so much hype and hope lathered all over them that reality flies out the window as to what they are likely to become.

17363E173C34530 wrote:



Prospect worshipers will never be reasoned with.  It's not you, it's them.   There is always the "next #3 hitter penciled in for the better part of a decade" waiting at some level of the minors. 



..


Or in this case, it's every team wanting to trade for this guy.  Is Brian Cashman a "prospect worshiper" working on behalf of making excuses for the Pirates for some reason?


Just give me an example of us trading prospects for an established starting pitcher.   We've had five years where we were competitors at the deadline or on opening day.   We've "shown interest" in a boatload of starting pitchers.      



Which one did we trade for?


Zane Smith




Good trade! That's the kind of trade we need now!

7B727A6B651F0 wrote: And also, look at how that trade worked out?  There's an example of two beloved prospects.  Two players in Grossman and Rudy Owens that the prospect people had been salivating over for years.   Grossman especially.



They all were nothing that worked out.   Amounted to nothing at all, as a lot of these guys do.   We got a decent season out of Wandy and then an injury and we traded a bunch of nothing for him.



Our prospect rankings are riddled with these guys and we badly overvalue them.   Somehow pirates FANS overvalue the prospects lol.    They're so talked up and so much hype and hope lathered all over them that reality flies out the window as to what they are likely to become.
I wonder if the decades of losing baseball made Pirate fans more interested in prospects than fans of more successful teams would be. For 20 years all we had to focus on was the future. Even during these last few competitive seasons, fans still suggest trading for prospects. Maybe it's a mindset that's hard to change.

4D444C5D53290 wrote: And also, look at how that trade worked out?  There's an example of two beloved prospects.  Two players in Grossman and Rudy Owens that the prospect people had been salivating over for years.   Grossman especially.



They all were nothing that worked out.   Amounted to nothing at all, as a lot of these guys do.   We got a decent season out of Wandy and then an injury and we traded a bunch of nothing for him.



Our prospect rankings are riddled with these guys and we badly overvalue them.   Somehow pirates FANS overvalue the prospects lol.    They're so talked up and so much hype and hope lathered all over them that reality flies out the window as to what they are likely to become.


"Beloved prospects", "people had been salivating over for years" is not how I would describe Grossman and Owens. They were never top 100 prospects. People (fans of the Pirates I suppose) liked them because at that time they were basically all the farm system had that could be productive major leaguers. If I remember correctly, by the time they were actually traded much of the shine had already worn off them.



Either way, much different than the risk of trading 2 - 3 top 50 prospects.

62677063354447060 wrote: And also, look at how that trade worked out?  There's an example of two beloved prospects.  Two players in Grossman and Rudy Owens that the prospect people had been salivating over for years.   Grossman especially.



They all were nothing that worked out.   Amounted to nothing at all, as a lot of these guys do.   We got a decent season out of Wandy and then an injury and we traded a bunch of nothing for him.



Our prospect rankings are riddled with these guys and we badly overvalue them.   Somehow pirates FANS overvalue the prospects lol.    They're so talked up and so much hype and hope lathered all over them that reality flies out the window as to what they are likely to become.


"Beloved prospects", "people had been salivating over for years" is not how I would describe Grossman and Owens. They were never top 100 prospects. People (fans of the Pirates I suppose) liked them because at that time they were basically all the farm system had that could be productive major leaguers. If I remember correctly, by the time they were actually traded much of the shine had already worn off them.



Either way, much different than the risk of trading 2 - 3 top 50 prospects.
What would you be willing to part with for Quintana?

7F7A6D7E28595A1B0 wrote: And also, look at how that trade worked out?  There's an example of two beloved prospects.  Two players in Grossman and Rudy Owens that the prospect people had been salivating over for years.   Grossman especially.



They all were nothing that worked out.   Amounted to nothing at all, as a lot of these guys do.   We got a decent season out of Wandy and then an injury and we traded a bunch of nothing for him.



Our prospect rankings are riddled with these guys and we badly overvalue them.   Somehow pirates FANS overvalue the prospects lol.    They're so talked up and so much hype and hope lathered all over them that reality flies out the window as to what they are likely to become.


"Beloved prospects", "people had been salivating over for years" is not how I would describe Grossman and Owens. They were never top 100 prospects. People (fans of the Pirates I suppose) liked them because at that time they were basically all the farm system had that could be productive major leaguers. If I remember correctly, by the time they were actually traded much of the shine had already worn off them.



Either way, much different than the risk of trading 2 - 3 top 50 prospects.


It's different risk and different reward. Our #7, #9 and #11 prospects at the time for a year and a half of Wandy Rodriguez.



Jose Quintana locked up for four seasons at an average of less per year than Wandy was making in 2012, 5 seasons ago.



So if they want 2 top 50s plus someone decent, doesn't that make some sense? They have an extremely valuable long-term piece. Baseball is riddled with top-50s who end up as below average major leaguers