OnlyBucs

4641575F5146010D745359555D581A575B59340 wrote: I'm very concerned about the direction of this FO. Fans were very excited and bought in to the rebuilding that changed 20 years of losing into 3 years of post season. But when fans expected a few moves in the past 2 off seasons to further strengthen the team, little was done. The FO said spending would increase when the time was right. That didn't happen to any appreciable degree. Then we were told the FO didn't want to go all in because they preferred to be at least competitive on a yearly basis. Last year and this year they aren't even competitive. When they lost Kang and Marte they incredibly said idly by and twiddled their thumbs. They seem to be losing the trust of the fans and they don't even seem to care. It seems the effort to build a winner is becoming less and less each year. I haven't even seen many comments from Nutting, Coonelly or NH this season. Maybe they're just running out of excuses.


This is a good point.  The whole thing really is strange. 



At the height of fan interest and changing attitudes toward the Pirates it's like the FO got defensive because the fans were excited and wanted just one more player.



When the fans were chastised by the FO for wanting one more pitcher for the 2016 season I was floored.  Neal talking on the FAN and mockingly saying "it's easy to spend someone else's money" and then  criticized that we need to be more like KC fans (when the Pirates were crushing the Royals in attendance) seemed to intentionally create a "we" verses "them" atmosphere.



Frankly, the "fun" has been absent from Pirates baseball since. 



Hard to figure out why the FO would take such an approach. 


My own perception is that Nutting sincerely thought he could turn the franchise around and become good enough to even win a championship. But after 3 years of winning but not getting as far as the NLCS, he realized the cost of adding key players needed to get over the hump (as other competitive teams usually do) was prohibitive for their self-imposed budgetary constraints. It certainly appears they have scaled back their efforts on the past 2 off seasons and particularly this season when acute needs (5th starter, Kang and Marte replacements) went unaddressed. I think NH's marching orders going forward are to do the best you can with what you've got and don't expect to add key pieces if they don't come cheap. I think the FO sees the disconnect with the fans between the expectations of winning and the reality of what the FO is now willing to do. So they may indeed have a defensive attitude, deflecting criticism and trying to defend their meager actions to a fan base that's losing trust.

04363A3A2E1C3F363B3E3136570 wrote: I thought it was because he wasn't very good.
he may not have been very good, but the Pirates did seem to have outfield covered and no one for first.



From 2014:



efore the Arizona Fall League, Josh Bell ranked as one of the best outfield prospects in baseball. With the Scottsdale Scorpions, he has become a first baseman-in-training.



[highlight]The Pirates appear set for a while in the outfield with Starling Marte, Andrew McCutchen and Gregory Polanco. So barring a rule change that allows teams to play four outfielders at a time, they need a way to get Bell into their lineup when he's big league-ready in the near future.

Hence the move to first base. Bell got some pregame infield work in during the final month of the regular season at Double-A Altoona and focused on his first-base play in the instructional league before getting his first real game action there in the Fall League.

[/highlight]



http://m.mlb.com/news/article/100306276 ... ll-league/

Bell and the glove have not been at bffsany point, but I understood also he was moved because he was blocked at the ML level and they wanted his bat in the lineup. First base is the place for him, though.

I think NH went in to this season feeling pretty good about his core that was to be: Marte, McCutchen, Polanco, Cole, Taillon & Kang. I also think most GM's would feel good about a team with that core, again before all that's transpired. NH is clearly going to have to show some skill turning over this group. Have to hope that Marte and Polanco will show us something in 2017 so that the org can feel good penciling them into the lineup in 2018. Bell and Frazier look like mainstays, Cervelli and Harrison could be attractive trade chips and NH really needs to leverage his marketable assets to try and add some complementary pieces to a shrinking core. There will be plenty of options in 2018 to slot behind the top three in the rotation and there are a lot of promising pitchers in the minors that could reload the bullpen. The key is trying to figure out what position players they want to build around for 2018.



I know it's pie in the sky hope, but they will need to spend some money to fill lineup holes. MVP caliber McCutchen used to be able to cover all those holes in the past. But he's gone and they don't have a similar talent, they can't have Jordy Mercer black holes in the lineup anymore.

36342E283E5B0 wrote: Bell and the glove have not been  at bffsany point, but I understood also he was moved because he was blocked at the ML level and they wanted his bat in the lineup. First base is the place for him, though.


It looks to me that Bell is becoming a very competent 1st baseman. He's improved greatly over the last couple months.



Don't know why he couldn't be a competent outfielder as well. But he's filling a long term hole in this lineup at 1st.

172A3439363C37153D2A3B3D3C580 wrote: I think NH went in to this season feeling pretty good about his core that was to be: Marte, McCutchen, Polanco, Cole, Taillon & Kang. I also think most GM's would feel good about a team with that core, again before all that's transpired.  NH is clearly going to have to show some skill turning over this group.  Have to hope that Marte and Polanco will show us something in 2017 so that the org can feel good penciling them into the lineup in 2018.  Bell and Frazier look like mainstays, Cervelli and Harrison could be attractive trade chips and NH really needs to leverage his marketable assets to try and add some complementary pieces to a shrinking core.  There will be plenty of options in 2018 to slot behind the top three in the rotation and there are a lot of promising pitchers in the minors that could reload the bullpen.   The key is trying to figure out what position players they want to build around for 2018.



I know it's pie in the sky hope, but they will need to spend some money to fill lineup holes.  MVP caliber McCutchen used to be able to cover all those holes in the past.  But he's gone and they don't have a similar talent, they can't have Jordy Mercer black holes in the lineup anymore.


I agree with this too. Many here agreed too if you go by the 2017 Prediction Thread.



The core guys mentioned would carry the team along with Nova and Cervelli. In hopes the secondary guys fill in the other holes like Frazier, Harrison, (rookie) Bell and Mercer.



The plan is failing as almost everyone in their line up who was expected to play well isn't. Only Harrison is playing well as a projected starter. A lot to ask to fill the holes left by Kang and Marte too.



I feel a fire sale will happen. That $29.99 a month for standing room tickets was a big sign to me. I wish they would reload. I don't want to trade Cole yet or give up on Marte and Polanco.

5C6E62627644676E6366696E0F0 wrote: I thought it was because he wasn't very good.
A little of both.

515A525E5B5A410402754C545D5A5A1B565A350 wrote: I think NH went in to this season feeling pretty good about his core that was to be: Marte, McCutchen, Polanco, Cole, Taillon & Kang. I also think most GM's would feel good about a team with that core, again before all that's transpired.  NH is clearly going to have to show some skill turning over this group.  Have to hope that Marte and Polanco will show us something in 2017 so that the org can feel good penciling them into the lineup in 2018.  Bell and Frazier look like mainstays, Cervelli and Harrison could be attractive trade chips and NH really needs to leverage his marketable assets to try and add some complementary pieces to a shrinking core.  There will be plenty of options in 2018 to slot behind the top three in the rotation and there are a lot of promising pitchers in the minors that could reload the bullpen.   The key is trying to figure out what position players they want to build around for 2018.



I know it's pie in the sky hope, but they will need to spend some money to fill lineup holes.  MVP caliber McCutchen used to be able to cover all those holes in the past.  But he's gone and they don't have a similar talent, they can't have Jordy Mercer black holes in the lineup anymore.


I agree with this too.  Many here agreed too if you go by the 2017 Prediction Thread.



The core guys mentioned would carry the team along with Nova and Cervelli.  In hopes the secondary guys fill in the other holes like Frazier, Harrison, (rookie) Bell and Mercer.



The plan is failing as almost everyone in their line up who was expected to play well isn't.  Only Harrison is playing well as a projected starter.  A lot to ask to fill the holes left by Kang and Marte too. 



I feel a fire sale will happen.  That $29.99 a month for standing room tickets was a big sign to me.  I wish they would reload.  I don't want to trade Cole yet or give up on Marte and Polanco.   






What do you mean by fire sale? A dismantling of the team? What would a reload look like? Any trades or just fill in needed pieces?

45777B7B6F5D7E777A7F7077160 wrote: I thought it was because he wasn't very good.


You're partially right about Bell in the OF. As Ecbucs says Bell was blocked in the OF by Marte, Cutch, and Polanco. He never could play a combo of defense and hitting like those three. Its not that he was a bad defender but rather just an ordinary fielder blocked by 3 great defenders.



The Bucs loved his bat and so do we so they moved and developed him as a 1Bman and that seems to be where he will play on this Bucs team.



I certainly believe that Bell might be better than Jaso but I need to see a large sample from both to be sure. So in this one case I trust Hurdle's judgement of Bell at 1B. Only problem I have with Hurdle and Bell is Clints's insistence on replacing him with Jaso for defense. Need Bell's often heroic bat in the game all the time.

A reload is keeping Cole, Nova, Polanco, Marte, Cervelli, Harrison, and Freese and trading others and bringing in talent to play with them. If those guys are dealt, I can see a rebuilding that will take years. Dealing all of those players would be a fire sale.



Personally, I prefer a reloading. I don't want to give up on Cole, Polanco, and Marte. Cole would be Chris Sale type return based on contract and age.