777C74787D7C672224536A727B7C7C3D707C130 wrote: The Pirates signed Nova.
Does this change the thoughts in this thread? Are they still "rebuilding" ( I still don't get that). They needed a pitcher and got a top free agent pitcher. They are also still in on Quintana according to rumors (MLB, Twitter).
First off, no one is happier this morning than me! Great job to Neal.
Second, I don't know whether you actually read my post of just trying to not-get-it, but I didn't say the Pirates are rebuilding (still), I said the Pirates never shifted there strategy once the rebuild was finished. They had a rebuild plan but not a WS plan.
Third, as said, this is a great deal for the Pirates, but if they want to contend with the Cubs they need one more pitcher that both of us are watch the rumors anxiously.
Fourth, if they swing The Trade then they will be breaking their old plan and will indeed be working a new plan. All I ever pleaded for.
Fifth and finally, nobody will be happier to eat crow. I'm all in!
I did ask why the term "rebuilding" was used. I don't see it in action or understand it in your post.
I also posted this (many times in other threads) and I stick by this:
"I think the plan is pretty simple. We have seen it before. They will sign/trade for a starter. Then come Super 2 they will bring up a ready Glasnow. The weakest starter will be replaced or an injury will open up a spot. Then they will look at the trade deadline to see who they can get to help even more."
A step in this direction happened today with the Nova signing. This plan has worked three out of four years to make the playoffs, but people are dwelling on the one year it didn't happen.
I will eat crow too if I am wrong. But this has happened for four years in a row. It isn't like I have some insider information.
Fair enough. We see the potential through different eyes. But we have the same goal!
One thing you'll have to agree with - if the Pirates acquire Q, that will represent a fundamental change to past team management.
What about the lineup?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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rucker59@gmail.com
What about the lineup?
2C2B3D353B2C6B671E39333F3732703D31335E0 wrote: The "problem" is that it's harder to stay competitive than it is to become competitive.
I have to disagree with this.
There was no mystery about what the Pirates needed to do next. It was definitely not harder then digging out of the 20 years of losing, it was simply more expensive. The nonexistent Plan to Win the WS doesn't live in the nice tidy world of the Pirates internal valuation and maintaining "financial flexibility". To PLAN to win the WS you have to identify the player(s) you need NOW and figure a way to get that player (or the next best thing at least); you identify the player you need not an internal valuation price point. the Pirates never did this; it was too costly not too hard.
I've been saying this all along. There are 2 phases to transforming this team into a legit WS contender. Phase 1 was accomplished with flying colors. An awful organization was infused with talent and as those players became major leaguers the team became competitive. Phase 2 was to supplement the young, inexpensive, internally developed talent with key acquisitions to fill the few remaining holes. But this seems to be where the org draws the line. They are reluctant to supplement their core with even moderately salaried players despite maintaining one of MLB's lowest payrolls. So holes in the rotation are filled with reclamation projects. Liriano was one of those and when he succeeded, his moderate salary was too much to pay. I didn't mind them moving him when he struggled so badly but surrendering 2 top prospects to shed his salary was embarrassing. And the modest amount of money saved did little more than provide the flexibility to sign Freese and Hudson. The Bucs don't seem to have any interest in even a moderate payroll increase. So for every addition, there must be a corresponding subtraction. This is not how you supplement a team by adding key parts to a strong core. The "Plan" seems to be to do the best they can as long as it doesn't require them to move up from the 5 or 6 lowest payrolls in MLB.
Reports are flying that the Indians are "pulling out all stops" to sign Edwin Encarnacion. This will almost certainly require $20M+ for 3-4 years. The Indians need a DH. An identified need, an identified player, and trying to make it happen. They have a plan to win a WS.
And if Encarnacion is just too expensive I've heard that they will turn to Chris Carter or back to Napoli.
I don't know how any Pirate fan can look at this situation and not see the difference between the excellent work at rebuilding and the total lack of a WS plan.
One last note: the Indians, of all teams, are likely to fill their need through FA. That saves their prospects.
The Pirates will not compete in the FA mkt, and now they won't make trades. Doesn't leave a lot of options.
And Cleveland signs Encarnacion. $60M over 3.
In normal circumstances the Indians would be crazy to spend this money. But these are not normal circumstances, they're in contention to win a WS. So they're trying to make a very good team better. This is what The Plan has failed to include for the Pirates. It's what any team committed to winning a WS would be trying their best to do.
Cleveland ownership has stepped up to the plate. They're stepping up even though their attendance is well below the Pirates. First the Royals and now Cleveland. This will put a ton of pressure on the Pirate FO if they don't act with the same motivation.
Let's hope the rumors about the Pirates are as true as the ones about the Indians. I'd take a Pittsburgh/Cleveland WS!
I have to disagree with this.
There was no mystery about what the Pirates needed to do next. It was definitely not harder then digging out of the 20 years of losing, it was simply more expensive. The nonexistent Plan to Win the WS doesn't live in the nice tidy world of the Pirates internal valuation and maintaining "financial flexibility". To PLAN to win the WS you have to identify the player(s) you need NOW and figure a way to get that player (or the next best thing at least); you identify the player you need not an internal valuation price point. the Pirates never did this; it was too costly not too hard.
I've been saying this all along. There are 2 phases to transforming this team into a legit WS contender. Phase 1 was accomplished with flying colors. An awful organization was infused with talent and as those players became major leaguers the team became competitive. Phase 2 was to supplement the young, inexpensive, internally developed talent with key acquisitions to fill the few remaining holes. But this seems to be where the org draws the line. They are reluctant to supplement their core with even moderately salaried players despite maintaining one of MLB's lowest payrolls. So holes in the rotation are filled with reclamation projects. Liriano was one of those and when he succeeded, his moderate salary was too much to pay. I didn't mind them moving him when he struggled so badly but surrendering 2 top prospects to shed his salary was embarrassing. And the modest amount of money saved did little more than provide the flexibility to sign Freese and Hudson. The Bucs don't seem to have any interest in even a moderate payroll increase. So for every addition, there must be a corresponding subtraction. This is not how you supplement a team by adding key parts to a strong core. The "Plan" seems to be to do the best they can as long as it doesn't require them to move up from the 5 or 6 lowest payrolls in MLB.
Reports are flying that the Indians are "pulling out all stops" to sign Edwin Encarnacion. This will almost certainly require $20M+ for 3-4 years. The Indians need a DH. An identified need, an identified player, and trying to make it happen. They have a plan to win a WS.
And if Encarnacion is just too expensive I've heard that they will turn to Chris Carter or back to Napoli.
I don't know how any Pirate fan can look at this situation and not see the difference between the excellent work at rebuilding and the total lack of a WS plan.
One last note: the Indians, of all teams, are likely to fill their need through FA. That saves their prospects.
The Pirates will not compete in the FA mkt, and now they won't make trades. Doesn't leave a lot of options.
And Cleveland signs Encarnacion. $60M over 3.
In normal circumstances the Indians would be crazy to spend this money. But these are not normal circumstances, they're in contention to win a WS. So they're trying to make a very good team better. This is what The Plan has failed to include for the Pirates. It's what any team committed to winning a WS would be trying their best to do.
Cleveland ownership has stepped up to the plate. They're stepping up even though their attendance is well below the Pirates. First the Royals and now Cleveland. This will put a ton of pressure on the Pirate FO if they don't act with the same motivation.
Let's hope the rumors about the Pirates are as true as the ones about the Indians. I'd take a Pittsburgh/Cleveland WS!
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OrlandoMerced
What about the lineup?
Cleveland signing Encarnacion is such an apples to oranges situation if you are somehow implying that they know what they're doing and the Pirates don't.
They upgraded from Napoli to Encarnacion, the latter is maybe the premier DH in baseball right now. The Indians also waited until his price dropped in their range.
They also got him on a 3 year deal, I'm sure the pirates would be willing to sign a premier player at a position of need for that amount.
They upgraded from Napoli to Encarnacion, the latter is maybe the premier DH in baseball right now. The Indians also waited until his price dropped in their range.
They also got him on a 3 year deal, I'm sure the pirates would be willing to sign a premier player at a position of need for that amount.
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rucker59@gmail.com
What about the lineup?
7C415F525D575C7E5641505657330 wrote: Cleveland signing Encarnacion is such an apples to oranges situation if you are somehow implying that they know what they're doing and the Pirates don't.
They upgraded from Napoli to Encarnacion, the latter is maybe the premier DH in baseball right now. The Indians also waited until his price dropped in their range.
They also got him on a 3 year deal, I'm sure the pirates would be willing to sign a premier player at a position of need for that amount.
How is this apples to oranges? It's identical. The Indians aren't any smarter, they simply made a signing the Pirates have never made. That's the point - the Indians could have filled Napoli's spot by any number of means including resigning Napoli or dumpster diving. They worked a good deal, but they're investing $60M over three for one reason alone: to make a really good team even better to give them the best chance to win a WS. The next time the Pirates do that will be the 1st time.
"But we won 98 games! What more do you want?!"
The Indians won 3 games in the WS - what more does their foolish ownership want?!
They upgraded from Napoli to Encarnacion, the latter is maybe the premier DH in baseball right now. The Indians also waited until his price dropped in their range.
They also got him on a 3 year deal, I'm sure the pirates would be willing to sign a premier player at a position of need for that amount.
How is this apples to oranges? It's identical. The Indians aren't any smarter, they simply made a signing the Pirates have never made. That's the point - the Indians could have filled Napoli's spot by any number of means including resigning Napoli or dumpster diving. They worked a good deal, but they're investing $60M over three for one reason alone: to make a really good team even better to give them the best chance to win a WS. The next time the Pirates do that will be the 1st time.
"But we won 98 games! What more do you want?!"
The Indians won 3 games in the WS - what more does their foolish ownership want?!
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OrlandoMerced
What about the lineup?
Encarnacion is worth every penny of that contract. Can you show me a player that will make that sort of impact to the Pirates that got a 3 year 60 million dollar deal?
The Pirates adhere strongly to their internal player valuations, and that will result in limited FA activity, but I attribute that more to true player value and market value always being out of whack.
In the case of Encarnacion, it matched, unfortunately there's no DH in the NL.
The Pirates adhere strongly to their internal player valuations, and that will result in limited FA activity, but I attribute that more to true player value and market value always being out of whack.
In the case of Encarnacion, it matched, unfortunately there's no DH in the NL.
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OrlandoMerced
What about the lineup?
I'll just give a hypothetical.
Say for example that Mercer falls of a cliff this year and the pirates trade for Cozart midseason, he does well for them and they want to keep him beyond 2017. I believe that the Pirates would easily pay in the 15-20Million range if he would accept a three year deal.
Say for example that Mercer falls of a cliff this year and the pirates trade for Cozart midseason, he does well for them and they want to keep him beyond 2017. I believe that the Pirates would easily pay in the 15-20Million range if he would accept a three year deal.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What about the lineup?
686F79717F682F235A7D777B7376347975771A0 wrote: Cleveland signing Encarnacion is such an apples to oranges situation if you are somehow implying that they know what they're doing and the Pirates don't.
They upgraded from Napoli to Encarnacion, the latter is maybe the premier DH in baseball right now. The Indians also waited until his price dropped in their range.
They also got him on a 3 year deal, I'm sure the pirates would be willing to sign a premier player at a position of need for that amount.
How is this apples to oranges? It's identical. The Indians aren't any smarter, they simply made a signing the Pirates have never made. That's the point - the Indians could have filled Napoli's spot by any number of means including resigning Napoli or dumpster diving. They worked a good deal, but they're investing $60M over three for one reason alone: to make a really good team even better to give them the best chance to win a WS. The next time the Pirates do that will be the 1st time.
"But we won 98 games! What more do you want?!"
The Indians won 3 games in the WS - what more does their foolish ownership want?!
The Pirates signed Liriano when he was a free agent. Why isn't that same?
The Pirates were wrong in their evaluations, but they thought they had better players in Harrison and Jaso when they traded Walker and let Alvarez go. They also brought in pitchers after winning 98 games. So, they did add to a very good team. They were just wrong in who they added. The new players/starters didn't pan out (Harrison, Niese, Vogelsong, Jaso, Nicasio as a starter). I didn't agree with this approach, but it happened.
Cleveland can end up wrong too. They didn't add an outfielder down the stretch, which hurt them big time. We just don't know yet.
They upgraded from Napoli to Encarnacion, the latter is maybe the premier DH in baseball right now. The Indians also waited until his price dropped in their range.
They also got him on a 3 year deal, I'm sure the pirates would be willing to sign a premier player at a position of need for that amount.
How is this apples to oranges? It's identical. The Indians aren't any smarter, they simply made a signing the Pirates have never made. That's the point - the Indians could have filled Napoli's spot by any number of means including resigning Napoli or dumpster diving. They worked a good deal, but they're investing $60M over three for one reason alone: to make a really good team even better to give them the best chance to win a WS. The next time the Pirates do that will be the 1st time.
"But we won 98 games! What more do you want?!"
The Indians won 3 games in the WS - what more does their foolish ownership want?!
The Pirates signed Liriano when he was a free agent. Why isn't that same?
The Pirates were wrong in their evaluations, but they thought they had better players in Harrison and Jaso when they traded Walker and let Alvarez go. They also brought in pitchers after winning 98 games. So, they did add to a very good team. They were just wrong in who they added. The new players/starters didn't pan out (Harrison, Niese, Vogelsong, Jaso, Nicasio as a starter). I didn't agree with this approach, but it happened.
Cleveland can end up wrong too. They didn't add an outfielder down the stretch, which hurt them big time. We just don't know yet.
What about the lineup?
A position of need? How about a quality starting pitcher in the 2015 off season to help give a boost to a 98 win team and at the very least offset the loss of AJ Burnett and Charlie Morton? The Pirates could have added J.A. Happ for considerably less than $60M/3yrs. Instead the Pirates added Ryan Vogelsong.
As Va aptly pointed out the next time the Pirates spend $20M/yr on a player will be the first time. Cleveland's action in signing Encarnacion speaks loudly that they're hungry for a championship.
As Va aptly pointed out the next time the Pirates spend $20M/yr on a player will be the first time. Cleveland's action in signing Encarnacion speaks loudly that they're hungry for a championship.
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DemDog
What about the lineup?
Can't complain about the Indians signing Encarnacion for $20 mil per year in an effort to win a WS. Heck I was in diapers when they last won a WS. In fact I was just learning to drive when Cleveland last had a championship team, the Brownies in 1964. That way before the Cavs won the NBA this year. So give them a break, they are really, really desperate to win it all. Now that I have said that, the Bucs should be in the same frame of mind, it has been 37 yrs since they won it all and I for one am big time looking for another one soon before I leave this world.