OnlyBucs

Seems like the momentum for a Cole trade has cooled.



I don't really understand how these negotiations work, but it just seems like worst case scenario is for them to bypass a significant prospect package because it wasn't good enough and not do enough this offseason to improve the 2018 team.

102D333E313B30123A2D3C3A3B5F0 wrote: Seems like the momentum for a Cole trade has cooled.










I kind of wonder how many of the rumors are old news before we even hear about them.

0F322C212E242F0D2532232524400 wrote: Seems like the momentum for a Cole trade has cooled.



I don't really understand how these negotiations work, but it just seems like worst case scenario is for them to bypass a significant prospect package because it wasn't good enough and not do enough this offseason to improve the 2018 team.






Dog keeps maintaining that NH just wanted Torres from the Yanks for Cole.  Hyman in this link states NH wanted Torres INCLUDED in a deal for Cole.  Meaning he wanted Torres plus.



I still don't understand the push for Torres and remaining steadfast for a guy that has ability, but didn't have a good 2017 and was average in 2016.  The Yanks have offered Frazier plus.  Plus could mean Adams or plus could mean Andujar who can man third as well.



This is a big time miss.  What if Cole craps the bed this year?  His value is worse if you want to unload him at the TDL.



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2750 ... ave-cooled

It is a risk if the Bucs start off the season with Cole. If he has a poor start to the season his value would be much lower than his current value. Also if he has an injury such as TJ he would be done for 2018 and part of 2019. The Pirates would then be fortunate if they got got a second string catcher for him. I see no problem with the proposal of Frazier and the pitcher Adams.

.

4B47461D141D15181F001A2D0 wrote: It is a risk if the Bucs start off the season with Cole. If he has a poor start to the season his value would be much lower than his current value. Also if he has an injury such as TJ he would be done for 2018 and part of 2019. The Pirates would then be fortunate if they got got a second string catcher for him.  I see no problem with the proposal of Frazier and the pitcher Adams.

.


There's also a risk that he catches fire this season and they trade him too soon, so . . .



I wouldn't be desperate that I have to make a move now but definitely looking.  No I won't pretend like I know what a reasonable compensation would be. I just wouldn't make the reason for moving him be "but what if he sucks this year"

303B333F3A3B206563142D353C3B3B7A373B540 wrote: Neal has very few trade pieces that have significant value.  He has to make a big score with Cole.  Failure on this point will help seal the Pirates fate for the next 5-6 years.  But he must move Cole.  If he thinks he has the leverage to toss out deals that are truly unreasonable because he can "just keep Cole on the roster" Neal is kidding himself. 



Failure to move Cole, and move him for a very strong return, will be a disaster for the Pirates.



But Neal does have one true "crap shot" he can play: if teams refuse to make a strong offer to the Pirates, Neal can hold until the trade deadline HOPING that Cole has a strong first half season.  A healthy and dominate Cole will change the trade landscape, especially at the deadline.  But if Cole is injuried or continues his 2017 performance Neal will have no leverage.  Big decisions.



Here's a reality for me that speaks volumes for this organization: I think most GMs, if they were sitting on a Garrett Cole, could turn a very impressive deal.  I hate to say this, but I don't have confidence that Neal can do this deal.  I'm expecting the Pirates to either sit on Cole though 2018 or make a poor trade.  Hope I'm wrong, but we need a very skilled GM that we haven't really seen since the AJ trade.




I think dealing Cole shows that the Bucs don't expect to compete in 2018.  Otherwise they would be dealing for someone (at any position) that has the upside of a Cole.



I am ok with that as it is better than being wishy washy about 2018 and just hoping that everything goes well.



I would be happier though if management thought team could compete in 2018 and went for an upgrade in talent. 




The more I think about it though, the more I realize that I've lost confidence in Neal pulling off a trade where the Pirates get best return or holes plugged. 




Why do you feel that way?  His deadline deals have been pretty good.  Outside of McCutchen last year, we don't really have much to go on.  I am not even sure of McCutchen was truly on the table last year.  I also don't recall the actual deal that was turned down (was that ever reported or just rumored). 



Cole is his biggest chip to date, based on talent, salary, age and upside.  Again, does he really even want to trade him?  Like dmetz said, ask for the moon and if doesn't happen, he is probably kept.


I feel that way because Neal has little success other than closers in particular and relievers in general.  AJ and Malancon are the only two blockbusters he's pulled off. 



Bigger still, for me, is his handling of major trade pieces.  Even Neal acknowledges that the Bay trade in the end was a big miss and Walker was a miss. Last year he was unable to complete a deal involving Cutch.  And he's been reluctant to move other pieces that have all depreciated badly on him: Starling, Polanco, Glasnow all were evaluated much too highly internally and could have been moved for significant returns.  Just as in the end, he held Cole too long. EDIT - Pedro is a poster child for this.



Finally, I can't think of a single multiplayer deal of any significance that Neal has pulled off, either packaging from Neal's end or receiving. And that's really what's is likely to be needed.  Cole + Mercer or Polanco, etc is probably going to be required to turn the fortune of the team around.



So in the end, and I simply don't have confidence in Neal's ability, whether it be timing or negotiations.  He can prove me wrong any minute and I'll be ecstatic.

7E6E6F584E4E422D0 wrote: Seems like the momentum for a Cole trade has cooled.



I don't really understand how these negotiations work, but it just seems like worst case scenario is for them to bypass a significant prospect package because it wasn't good enough and not do enough this offseason to improve the 2018 team.






Dog keeps maintaining that NH just wanted Torres from the Yanks for Cole.  Hyman in this link states NH wanted Torres INCLUDED in a deal for Cole.  Meaning he wanted Torres plus.



I still don't understand the push for Torres and remaining steadfast for a guy that has ability, but didn't have a good 2017 and was average in 2016.  The Yanks have offered Frazier plus.  Plus could mean Adams or plus could mean Andujar who can man third as well.



This is a big time miss.  What if Cole craps the bed this year?  His value is worse if you want to unload him at the TDL.



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2750 ... ave-cooled


I am not maintaining anything. I posted what was originally tweeted by Jon Heyman. Reports can change.



I actually haven't heard what the Yankees have offered. I keep hearing Frazier and others. The others are the unknown, right?

I'll add - its pretty well documented on here that Neal has graded poorly on drafting. I think the next biggest miss by Neal is the poor internal evaluation of their prospects. If you're not drafting well, and you're not in the FA mkt, then the ability to move the right pieces FOR the right pieces is critical. Neal has refused to move anyone that he evaluates highly. Too many of those prospects have not lived up to their expectations - they could have had substantially more value in a trade than they have on the team.



Neal sits on his hands while Ozuna could have been acquired. freeing up Marte. Watching the Cardinals work the winter (as an example) highlights just how unlikely the Pirates are to ever build a championship team. (and if the Cardinals get Donaldson....).

3631272F2136717D042329252D286A272B29440 wrote: I'll add - its pretty well documented on here that Neal has graded poorly on drafting.  I think the next biggest miss by Neal is the poor internal evaluation of their prospects.  If you're not drafting well, and you're not in the FA mkt, then the ability to move the right pieces FOR the right pieces is critical. Neal has refused to move anyone that he evaluates highly.  Too many of those prospects have not lived up to their expectations - they could have had substantially more value in a trade than they have on the team.



Neal sits on his hands while Ozuna could have been acquired. freeing up Marte.  Watching the Cardinals work the winter (as an example) highlights just how unlikely the Pirates are to ever build a championship team.  (and if the Cardinals get Donaldson....).


Why would he feel he needs to move them if they are highly evaluated?  I don't blame him for not moving them, I blame his evaluation as a whole. 



He has done this with new players too, not just his drafted prospects or international signings.  Niese and Jaso come to mind.  They weren't close as good compared to the players they replaced.  Harrison over Walker too. 



I do agree with you in not seeing that certain guys might not pan out, but how do you expect a return for those guys.  Guys like Tony Sanchez, Alen Hanson, and Brad Lincoln come to mind.  He probably held onto them too long.  But what could he have really got for them too? 



Tyler Glasnow might be that next guy.  Do you trade him now or hope he is a fixture for the Pirates?  That is always a tough call.  I am also watching all the middle infielders the Pirates have who should be coming up.  I feel sometimes too many is a bad thing too.  He should pick between Kevin Newman, Cole Tucker, and Kevin Kramer and maybe deal one of those guys. 



I don't know why Huntington has never traded a top guy.  He has made some really good deadline deals, but didn't have to give up anyone of significance in return.  I don't know why he has never made an off season trade involving prospects.  I feel he has had plenty of opportunity the past six years or so.

3B30383431302B6E681F263E373030713C305F0 wrote: I'll add - its pretty well documented on here that Neal has graded poorly on drafting.  I think the next biggest miss by Neal is the poor internal evaluation of their prospects.  If you're not drafting well, and you're not in the FA mkt, then the ability to move the right pieces FOR the right pieces is critical. Neal has refused to move anyone that he evaluates highly.  Too many of those prospects have not lived up to their expectations - they could have had substantially more value in a trade than they have on the team.



Neal sits on his hands while Ozuna could have been acquired. freeing up Marte.  Watching the Cardinals work the winter (as an example) highlights just how unlikely the Pirates are to ever build a championship team.  (and if the Cardinals get Donaldson....).


Why would he feel he needs to move them if they are highly evaluated?  I don't blame him for not moving them, I blame his evaluation as a whole. 



He has done this with new players too, not just his drafted prospects or international signings.  Niese and Jaso come to mind.  They weren't close as good compared to the players they replaced.  Harrison over Walker too. 



I do agree with you in not seeing that certain guys might not pan out, but how do you expect a return for those guys.  Guys like Tony Sanchez, Alen Hanson, and Brad Lincoln come to mind.  He probably held onto them too long.  But what could he have really got for them too? 



Tyler Glasnow might be that next guy.  Do you trade him now or hope he is a fixture for the Pirates?  That is always a tough call.  I am also watching all the middle infielders the Pirates have who should be coming up.  I feel sometimes too many is a bad thing too.  He should pick between Kevin Newman, Cole Tucker, and Kevin Kramer and maybe deal one of those guys. 



I don't know why Huntington has never traded a top guy.  He has made some really good deadline deals, but didn't have to give up anyone of significance in return.  I don't know why he has never made an off season trade involving prospects.  I feel he has had plenty of opportunity the past six years or so.






The most logical answer is he sucks at being a g.m.