What about the lineup?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What about the lineup?
The last time this management team had a below .500 season they came back and won 94 games and the playoffs the following year. Why isn't that taken into consideration?
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
What about the lineup?
3B30383431302B6E681F263E373030713C305F0 wrote: The last time this management team had a below .500 season they came back and won 94 games and the playoffs the following year. Why isn't that taken into consideration?
The fun thing about the past several seasons is that there's something for everyone. You can choose your facts to fit what you came into the conversation wanting to believe anyhow.
The fun thing about the past several seasons is that there's something for everyone. You can choose your facts to fit what you came into the conversation wanting to believe anyhow.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What about the lineup?
182A26263200232A27222D2A4B0 wrote: The last time this management team had a below .500 season they came back and won 94 games and the playoffs the following year. Why isn't that taken into consideration?
The fun thing about the past several seasons is that there's something for everyone. You can choose your facts to fit what you came into the conversation wanting to believe anyhow.
Right, my point exactly.
I will stand by the last four years as we saw the turnaround and guys were promoted to the big leagues. Even most of the 2012 team isn't around anymore who led the division deep into the season.
More will be promoted, but the core is pretty much the same the last few years. I think it is a good measure since the team was a mess when Huntington took over.
The fun thing about the past several seasons is that there's something for everyone. You can choose your facts to fit what you came into the conversation wanting to believe anyhow.
Right, my point exactly.
I will stand by the last four years as we saw the turnaround and guys were promoted to the big leagues. Even most of the 2012 team isn't around anymore who led the division deep into the season.
More will be promoted, but the core is pretty much the same the last few years. I think it is a good measure since the team was a mess when Huntington took over.
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rucker59@gmail.com
What about the lineup?
OK, the "problem" with "the plan" - there is nothing to indicate that the Pirates are ready to make the necessary adjustments to keep the plan working.
What we know: Neal and Frank came in with a very good plan to rebuild the Pirates. It required several more years of losing but no money was wasted, debt was paid down (for best business practices and to prepare for a more expensive future), prospects stockpiled, and careful trades (AJ) or careful FA signing (Russ, Frankie, etc).
Russ, AJ, Frankie, Hanrahan, Jason Grilli, Kang, and the Shark were all homerun deals on players that far exceeded expectations; ie, relatively cheap contracts. Cutch, Marte, Polanco, Cole, Tallion, and Glasnow were all expected to arrive at more or less the same time, also very cheap.
The plan was working beyond anyone's possible expectations; one of the (and maybe THE) best teams in MLB. As anyone should expect, there were a few bumps in the road, specifically injuries to Tallion and Cole. In addition, some of the early contracts came to their end and prices accelerated to the point the Pirates could not resign - AJ and Russ especially. Still, the plan was working incredible.
But a problem with the plan was beginning to appear - the Pirates, from all indications, were determined to continue the "rebuilding plan" rather than shift to a "win the WS plan". Looking at the names above should remind all of us just how much talent was on this team and how very close we were to being in a WS.
The plan needed to shift, ever so slightly IMHO, but critically - they always needed one more (maybe two) more pitchers. When Tallion (and Kingham) were injuried the Pirates needed to pony up to fill their void with WS caliber pitchers. Instead, they were still looking for magic in the bottle.
We know what happened next.
Now, the future is no longer in front us us, it's RIGHT NOW. A lot of contracts are going to start getting expensive (for a Pirates prospective), there are fewer high end prospects in the system, the rest of the league is creating higher cost for reclamation projects. It will not be easy and in fact is unlikely the Pirates will assemble as much talent as they currently have, not for a long time. So the time is NOW.
How does "the plan" take the talent of this team and turn it into a WS team? The "rebuilding plan" does not. But they seem to be still working under that plan, and we can all see to diminishing results.
The Rebuild plan = A+
The WS plan = does not exist.
That's the problem with "the plan".
Here's hoping Neal blows me out of the water this off season; maybe with the White Sox today.....
What we know: Neal and Frank came in with a very good plan to rebuild the Pirates. It required several more years of losing but no money was wasted, debt was paid down (for best business practices and to prepare for a more expensive future), prospects stockpiled, and careful trades (AJ) or careful FA signing (Russ, Frankie, etc).
Russ, AJ, Frankie, Hanrahan, Jason Grilli, Kang, and the Shark were all homerun deals on players that far exceeded expectations; ie, relatively cheap contracts. Cutch, Marte, Polanco, Cole, Tallion, and Glasnow were all expected to arrive at more or less the same time, also very cheap.
The plan was working beyond anyone's possible expectations; one of the (and maybe THE) best teams in MLB. As anyone should expect, there were a few bumps in the road, specifically injuries to Tallion and Cole. In addition, some of the early contracts came to their end and prices accelerated to the point the Pirates could not resign - AJ and Russ especially. Still, the plan was working incredible.
But a problem with the plan was beginning to appear - the Pirates, from all indications, were determined to continue the "rebuilding plan" rather than shift to a "win the WS plan". Looking at the names above should remind all of us just how much talent was on this team and how very close we were to being in a WS.
The plan needed to shift, ever so slightly IMHO, but critically - they always needed one more (maybe two) more pitchers. When Tallion (and Kingham) were injuried the Pirates needed to pony up to fill their void with WS caliber pitchers. Instead, they were still looking for magic in the bottle.
We know what happened next.
Now, the future is no longer in front us us, it's RIGHT NOW. A lot of contracts are going to start getting expensive (for a Pirates prospective), there are fewer high end prospects in the system, the rest of the league is creating higher cost for reclamation projects. It will not be easy and in fact is unlikely the Pirates will assemble as much talent as they currently have, not for a long time. So the time is NOW.
How does "the plan" take the talent of this team and turn it into a WS team? The "rebuilding plan" does not. But they seem to be still working under that plan, and we can all see to diminishing results.
The Rebuild plan = A+
The WS plan = does not exist.
That's the problem with "the plan".
Here's hoping Neal blows me out of the water this off season; maybe with the White Sox today.....
What about the lineup?
And there it is folks. VA that is a great explanation of the current situation.
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OrlandoMerced
What about the lineup?
The "problem" is that it's harder to stay competitive than it is to become competitive.
What about the lineup?
122F313C33393210382F3E38395D0 wrote: The "problem" is that it's harder to stay competitive than it is to become competitive.
yep but if we have one of the best management teams in baseball they should be able to do it. Discussing Quintana (and hopefully getting him) is to their credit.
yep but if we have one of the best management teams in baseball they should be able to do it. Discussing Quintana (and hopefully getting him) is to their credit.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What about the lineup?
I don't see the "rebuilding plan" that VA (and maybe others) are seeing. Most of the team is signed long term. If they were rebuilding, they would be trading away everyone. Just because Melancon, Walker and Liriano were dealt doesn't mean they are rebuilding. Melancon was a good return for the long term, Walker had his back up in place and Liriano was awful. Walker turned out to be a bad trade based on the player they received and his back up wasn't up to par.
Just like before, younger players will be called up and be counted on (Bell, Pitchers). You have to think Bell will be better than the 1B options last year at the plate. He might be young, but he is also the best option right now.
They have been doing the same thing for years now. It has worked. It did not work last year. Last year also had some unexpected bad years from current players and injuries unlike before.
They need another starting pitcher. They said they will get one (at least). There is time. The season is months away. many free agents haven't signed yet across all positions. It is way to early to predict 2017.
Just like before, younger players will be called up and be counted on (Bell, Pitchers). You have to think Bell will be better than the 1B options last year at the plate. He might be young, but he is also the best option right now.
They have been doing the same thing for years now. It has worked. It did not work last year. Last year also had some unexpected bad years from current players and injuries unlike before.
They need another starting pitcher. They said they will get one (at least). There is time. The season is months away. many free agents haven't signed yet across all positions. It is way to early to predict 2017.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
What about the lineup?
3216020A0F630 wrote: Three out of four years in the playoffs, but people think that isn't a good plan? Only one team wins it all. You have to get into the Playoffs to even have a shot at that. The Pirates have been doing that.
Let me ask my question again: Why are people against a plan that has worked three out of four years (because of what happened that one year they didn't make the Playoffs)?
They've only made the playoffs 3 out of the last 7 years.
The Cubs have only won the WS once in the last 109 years! Clearly their plan isn't working and they're nothing to actually worry about.
Let me ask my question again: Why are people against a plan that has worked three out of four years (because of what happened that one year they didn't make the Playoffs)?
They've only made the playoffs 3 out of the last 7 years.
The Cubs have only won the WS once in the last 109 years! Clearly their plan isn't working and they're nothing to actually worry about.
What about the lineup?
4348404C4948531610675E464F4848094448270 wrote: I don't see the "rebuilding plan" that VA (and maybe others) are seeing. Most of the team is signed long term. If they were rebuilding, they would be trading away everyone. Just because Melancon, Walker and Liriano were dealt doesn't mean they are rebuilding. Melancon was a good return for the long term, Walker had his back up in place and Liriano was awful. Walker turned out to be a bad trade based on the player they received and his back up wasn't up to par.
Just like before, younger players will be called up and be counted on (Bell, Pitchers). You have to think Bell will be better than the 1B options last year at the plate. He might be young, but he is also the best option right now.
They have been doing the same thing for years now. It has worked. It did not work last year. Last year also had some unexpected bad years from current players and injuries unlike before.
They need another starting pitcher. They said they will get one (at least). There is time. The season is months away. many free agents haven't signed yet across all positions. It is way to early to predict 2017.
did you copy this post from last year and change 2016 to 2017?
Just like before, younger players will be called up and be counted on (Bell, Pitchers). You have to think Bell will be better than the 1B options last year at the plate. He might be young, but he is also the best option right now.
They have been doing the same thing for years now. It has worked. It did not work last year. Last year also had some unexpected bad years from current players and injuries unlike before.
They need another starting pitcher. They said they will get one (at least). There is time. The season is months away. many free agents haven't signed yet across all positions. It is way to early to predict 2017.
did you copy this post from last year and change 2016 to 2017?