OnlyBucs

Neal has very few trade pieces that have significant value. He has to make a big score with Cole. Failure on this point will help seal the Pirates fate for the next 5-6 years. But he must move Cole. If he thinks he has the leverage to toss out deals that are truly unreasonable because he can "just keep Cole on the roster" Neal is kidding himself.



Failure to move Cole, and move him for a very strong return, will be a disaster for the Pirates.



But Neal does have one true "crap shot" he can play: if teams refuse to make a strong offer to the Pirates, Neal can hold until the trade deadline HOPING that Cole has a strong first half season. A healthy and dominate Cole will change the trade landscape, especially at the deadline. But if Cole is injuried or continues his 2017 performance Neal will have no leverage. Big decisions.



Here's a reality for me that speaks volumes for this organization: I think most GMs, if they were sitting on a Garrett Cole, could turn a very impressive deal. I hate to say this, but I don't have confidence that Neal can do this deal. I'm expecting the Pirates to either sit on Cole though 2018 or make a poor trade. Hope I'm wrong, but we need a very skilled GM that we haven't really seen since the AJ trade.

093238331F5B0 wrote:





Dog a few pages back ...I thought i had a good trade with Houston.Makes sense for both teams .Josh Bell going back to the OF is not a bad thing. Look at the possible lineup we could have . I even think its better than getting Frazier . The Torres guy is a big thing but looking at his stats i really am not impressed .I`m just listening to everyone else ...But AJ Reed has put up some monster numbers from the get go. We still have that kid SS who i like coming up Cole Tucker I think he will be real good.


I liked the idea, I just don't think the Pirates want to move Bell back to RF. They had plenty of opportunity to move him in 2017 as Osuna and Jaso play 1B better than the OF (actually, never played the OF before). I wanted Bell to move to RF, but the Pirates just didn't do it.

7A7D6B636D7A3D31486F65696164266B6765080 wrote: Neal has very few trade pieces that have significant value.  He has to make a big score with Cole.  Failure on this point will help seal the Pirates fate for the next 5-6 years.  But he must move Cole.  If he thinks he has the leverage to toss out deals that are truly unreasonable because he can "just keep Cole on the roster" Neal is kidding himself. 



Failure to move Cole, and move him for a very strong return, will be a disaster for the Pirates.



But Neal does have one true "crap shot" he can play: if teams refuse to make a strong offer to the Pirates, Neal can hold until the trade deadline HOPING that Cole has a strong first half season.  A healthy and dominate Cole will change the trade landscape, especially at the deadline.  But if Cole is injuried or continues his 2017 performance Neal will have no leverage.  Big decisions.



Here's a reality for me that speaks volumes for this organization: I think most GMs, if they were sitting on a Garrett Cole, could turn a very impressive deal.  I hate to say this, but I don't have confidence that Neal can do this deal.  I'm expecting the Pirates to either sit on Cole though 2018 or make a poor trade.  Hope I'm wrong, but we need a very skilled GM that we haven't really seen since the AJ trade.




I think dealing Cole shows that the Bucs don't expect to compete in 2018. Otherwise they would be dealing for someone (at any position) that has the upside of a Cole.



I am ok with that as it is better than being wishy washy about 2018 and just hoping that everything goes well.



I would be happier though if management thought team could compete in 2018 and went for an upgrade in talent.

4A5A5B6C7A7A76190 wrote: I agree with this thought. There is no reason for NH to lower his asking price. Two years of a quality pitcher at a reasonable salary has value.


If no trade, where do they go from there?  At least trading Cole would give some direction and start a possible  rebuild sooner.  Especially, if major league ready talent is returned. 



The worst place to be is in limbo.  I fear that is where the Pirates are right now.  They can go either way.  I want them to pick one.  And pick one soon. 




Dog a few pages back ...I thought i had a good trade with Houston.Makes sense for both teams .Josh Bell going back to the OF is not a bad thing. Look at the possible lineup we could have . I even think its better than getting Frazier . The Torres guy is a big thing but looking at his stats i really am not impressed .I`m just listening to everyone else ...But AJ Reed has put up some monster numbers from the get go. We still have that kid SS who i like coming up Cole Tucker I think he will be real good.


I still prefer a Frazier, Adams/Sheffield, & Andujar return from the Yanks. However NH would be foolish if he was not negotiating with Houston as well and leveraging that fact in his demands to the Yanks




Pittsburgh would have to add to that Yanks deal.  No chance are they giving up that for just Cole.
Agreed. The Bucs would have to add.

I would love to see if NH put Cole and Rivera on the table, if the Yanks would include Torres. Frazier, Torres, Adams, Andujar for Cole and Rivera.

715457574269545C5E493B0 wrote: I agree with this thought. There is no reason for NH to lower his asking price. Two years of a quality pitcher at a reasonable salary has value.


If no trade, where do they go from there?  At least trading Cole would give some direction and start a possible  rebuild sooner.  Especially, if major league ready talent is returned. 



The worst place to be is in limbo.  I fear that is where the Pirates are right now.  They can go either way.  I want them to pick one.  And pick one soon. 




Dog a few pages back ...I thought i had a good trade with Houston.Makes sense for both teams .Josh Bell going back to the OF is not a bad thing. Look at the possible lineup we could have . I even think its better than getting Frazier . The Torres guy is a big thing but looking at his stats i really am not impressed .I`m just listening to everyone else ...But AJ Reed has put up some monster numbers from the get go. We still have that kid SS who i like coming up Cole Tucker I think he will be real good.


I still prefer a Frazier, Adams/Sheffield, & Andujar return from the Yanks. However NH would be foolish if he was not negotiating with Houston as well and leveraging that fact in his demands to the Yanks




Pittsburgh would have to add to that Yanks deal.  No chance are they giving up that for just Cole.
Agreed. The Bucs would have to add.

I would love to see if NH put Cole and Rivera on the table, if the Yanks would include Torres. Frazier, Torres, Adams, Andujar for Cole and Rivera.


I think they would get more if they separated Cole and Rivera. Chapman for two months got the Yankees Torres and three others.

I'm still of the belief that the plan is to not do much.  Ask for the moon and if it happens, great.  If it doesn't "we didn't get enough of an offer"



otherwise it's plan C.   Do a whole lot of nothing and maybe field a .500 team if we catch some breaks.



Here's the PR:

"The market for 3bman and pitching was too expensive.



We explored offers for some of our players, but weren't getting strong enough interest. 



We did sign (enter marginal player here) and we like what we have.  We aggressively pursued ways to improve this team and we continue to keep all options on the table"

434A42535D270 wrote: I'm still of the belief that the plan is to not do much.  Ask for the moon and if it happens, great.  If it doesn't "we didn't get enough of an offer"



otherwise it's plan C.   Do a whole lot of nothing and maybe field a .500 team if we catch some breaks.   



Here's the PR:

"The market for 3bman and pitching was too expensive.



We explored offers for some of our players, but weren't getting strong enough interest. 



We did sign (enter marginal player here) and we like what we have.  We aggressively pursued ways to improve this team and we continue to keep all options on the table"






Well that would reflect the past two winters, so until they do something of significance I'd say you're sitting on the right bet. It also means, to me, that the FO is rudderless, no real plan. The worst of any alternative. And it's Ben that way for two years.



After 98 wins, it was not an acceptable plan to do nothing. The 98 wins begged for an "all in" effort. Instead, that's the winter/spring Neal started lecturing the fans about "spending someone else's money" and not supporting the team like KC fans (totally fabricated).



i would love to know what the enteral discussions were that winter. Coming off 98 wins and record attendance and TV ratings - what could have possibly motivated them to suddenly allocate less money and pick a fight with fans??

303931202E540 wrote: I'm still of the belief that the plan is to not do much.  Ask for the moon and if it happens, great.  If it doesn't "we didn't get enough of an offer"



otherwise it's plan C.   Do a whole lot of nothing and maybe field a .500 team if we catch some breaks.   



Here's the PR:

"The market for 3bman and pitching was too expensive.



We explored offers for some of our players, but weren't getting strong enough interest. 



We did sign (enter marginal player here) and we like what we have.  We aggressively pursued ways to improve this team and we continue to keep all options on the table"






It's unfortunate, but I think you have predicted exactly what will happen.

270100170111620 wrote: Neal has very few trade pieces that have significant value.  He has to make a big score with Cole.  Failure on this point will help seal the Pirates fate for the next 5-6 years.  But he must move Cole.  If he thinks he has the leverage to toss out deals that are truly unreasonable because he can "just keep Cole on the roster" Neal is kidding himself. 



Failure to move Cole, and move him for a very strong return, will be a disaster for the Pirates.



But Neal does have one true "crap shot" he can play: if teams refuse to make a strong offer to the Pirates, Neal can hold until the trade deadline HOPING that Cole has a strong first half season.  A healthy and dominate Cole will change the trade landscape, especially at the deadline.  But if Cole is injuried or continues his 2017 performance Neal will have no leverage.  Big decisions.



Here's a reality for me that speaks volumes for this organization: I think most GMs, if they were sitting on a Garrett Cole, could turn a very impressive deal.  I hate to say this, but I don't have confidence that Neal can do this deal.  I'm expecting the Pirates to either sit on Cole though 2018 or make a poor trade.  Hope I'm wrong, but we need a very skilled GM that we haven't really seen since the AJ trade.




I think dealing Cole shows that the Bucs don't expect to compete in 2018.  Otherwise they would be dealing for someone (at any position) that has the upside of a Cole.



I am ok with that as it is better than being wishy washy about 2018 and just hoping that everything goes well.



I would be happier though if management thought team could compete in 2018 and went for an upgrade in talent. 




The more I think about it though, the more I realize that I've lost confidence in Neal pulling off a trade where the Pirates get best return or holes plugged.

3E392F27293E79750C2B212D2520622F23214C0 wrote: Neal has very few trade pieces that have significant value.  He has to make a big score with Cole.  Failure on this point will help seal the Pirates fate for the next 5-6 years.  But he must move Cole.  If he thinks he has the leverage to toss out deals that are truly unreasonable because he can "just keep Cole on the roster" Neal is kidding himself. 



Failure to move Cole, and move him for a very strong return, will be a disaster for the Pirates.



But Neal does have one true "crap shot" he can play: if teams refuse to make a strong offer to the Pirates, Neal can hold until the trade deadline HOPING that Cole has a strong first half season.  A healthy and dominate Cole will change the trade landscape, especially at the deadline.  But if Cole is injuried or continues his 2017 performance Neal will have no leverage.  Big decisions.



Here's a reality for me that speaks volumes for this organization: I think most GMs, if they were sitting on a Garrett Cole, could turn a very impressive deal.  I hate to say this, but I don't have confidence that Neal can do this deal.  I'm expecting the Pirates to either sit on Cole though 2018 or make a poor trade.  Hope I'm wrong, but we need a very skilled GM that we haven't really seen since the AJ trade.




I think dealing Cole shows that the Bucs don't expect to compete in 2018.  Otherwise they would be dealing for someone (at any position) that has the upside of a Cole.



I am ok with that as it is better than being wishy washy about 2018 and just hoping that everything goes well.



I would be happier though if management thought team could compete in 2018 and went for an upgrade in talent. 




The more I think about it though, the more I realize that I've lost confidence in Neal pulling off a trade where the Pirates get best return or holes plugged. 




Why do you feel that way? His deadline deals have been pretty good. Outside of McCutchen last year, we don't really have much to go on. I am not even sure of McCutchen was truly on the table last year. I also don't recall the actual deal that was turned down (was that ever reported or just rumored).



Cole is his biggest chip to date, based on talent, salary, age and upside. Again, does he really even want to trade him? Like dmetz said, ask for the moon and if doesn't happen, he is probably kept.