5F5E4554420205310 wrote: The lineup should be very good. If Kang is available, having him in the lineup for a full season should be a boost. Bell will provide much more offense from 1b than we got last year. Cervelli should rebound some. I like his high .OBP. I believe 22 will be fine, as mentioned before maybe not MVP caliber anymore but well above average. Marte didn't show much power but I won't argue with a .300 average and tons of steals. Polanco is the wildcard for this bunch. If he reaches his ceiling this offense goes from good to great IMO.
I agree about Polanco, he could be the most important person on this team. I think he can be a super star. All five tools all-star quality. That's asking a lot, but I think he has truly unique potential that could carry a team.
What about the lineup?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
What about the lineup?
I am not worried about the line up. As some guys improve, I am sure some might get worse. But the difference will be how much worse.
Harrison has to have a better season. He was one of the worst offensive 2B in baseball last year.
Cervelli needs to stay healthy. Kang needs to stay healthy. There is a big drop off from Cervelli if he back up is batting. Kang can be a special player.
Bell will be better than Jaso. Polanco can certainly get better with age. McCutchen and Marte will do their thing too. Mercer had a fine season too.
I think if the team is winning, we will see a different attitude and approach at the plate. Hitting is known to be contagious I am not worried about the line up.
Harrison has to have a better season. He was one of the worst offensive 2B in baseball last year.
Cervelli needs to stay healthy. Kang needs to stay healthy. There is a big drop off from Cervelli if he back up is batting. Kang can be a special player.
Bell will be better than Jaso. Polanco can certainly get better with age. McCutchen and Marte will do their thing too. Mercer had a fine season too.
I think if the team is winning, we will see a different attitude and approach at the plate. Hitting is known to be contagious I am not worried about the line up.
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OrlandoMerced
What about the lineup?
I think the lineup is deep this year and I also like that there are going to be a number of guys on the bench that will be given opportunities to take on starting positions if someone struggles. Freese and Frazier will be around if someone like Harrison, Bell or Kang play themselves out of a starting role. Meadows will also be available if any of the big three OF sustain a long term injury. There are also some other guys in either AAA or AA that could play their way into the picture.
What about the lineup?
34362C2A3C590 wrote: The Pirates get a bit of a bum rap here. NH really built a great team and it played well. 98 wins is a lot, and it was done within the confines of a tight budget. Who could have predicted they would have the misfortune to end up in the division with a collection of the best teams in baseball? They would have won any other division and had a good shot to win the World Series. The heart of that team will be around for a bit yet (but getting more expensive by the year), and their pitching is coming on, so the hope is there. Enjoy this shot. The odds are against any team. Look at the Braves - they won their division something like 14 or 15 years in a row and have one world series win to show for it. All a team can hope for, all a GM can try for, is to be there at the end with a shot. [NOTE - I am old and am doing this from memory, so my facts may be loose, but the idea isn't.]
But if you want to be depressed, check out the bucsdugout.com article today on the state of the lower minors.
for me, this year determines whether the Pirates are getting a bum rap or not. 98 wins and making the playoffs was great. Last year was a fail and at this point 2017 doesn't look great although there is plenty of time for things to improve.
But if you want to be depressed, check out the bucsdugout.com article today on the state of the lower minors.
for me, this year determines whether the Pirates are getting a bum rap or not. 98 wins and making the playoffs was great. Last year was a fail and at this point 2017 doesn't look great although there is plenty of time for things to improve.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
What about the lineup?
755352455343300 wrote: The Pirates get a bit of a bum rap here. NH really built a great team and it played well. 98 wins is a lot, and it was done within the confines of a tight budget. Who could have predicted they would have the misfortune to end up in the division with a collection of the best teams in baseball? They would have won any other division and had a good shot to win the World Series. The heart of that team will be around for a bit yet (but getting more expensive by the year), and their pitching is coming on, so the hope is there. Enjoy this shot. The odds are against any team. Look at the Braves - they won their division something like 14 or 15 years in a row and have one world series win to show for it. All a team can hope for, all a GM can try for, is to be there at the end with a shot. [NOTE - I am old and am doing this from memory, so my facts may be loose, but the idea isn't.]
But if you want to be depressed, check out the bucsdugout.com article today on the state of the lower minors.
for me, this year determines whether the Pirates are getting a bum rap or not. 98 wins and making the playoffs was great. Last year was a fail and at this point 2017 doesn't look great although there is plenty of time for things to improve.
I wonder if in a way their success caught up to them last year (by that I mean that they thought they could fix any pitcher)
But if you want to be depressed, check out the bucsdugout.com article today on the state of the lower minors.
for me, this year determines whether the Pirates are getting a bum rap or not. 98 wins and making the playoffs was great. Last year was a fail and at this point 2017 doesn't look great although there is plenty of time for things to improve.
I wonder if in a way their success caught up to them last year (by that I mean that they thought they could fix any pitcher)
What about the lineup?
7C4E42425664474E4346494E2F0 wrote: The Pirates get a bit of a bum rap here. NH really built a great team and it played well. 98 wins is a lot, and it was done within the confines of a tight budget. Who could have predicted they would have the misfortune to end up in the division with a collection of the best teams in baseball? They would have won any other division and had a good shot to win the World Series. The heart of that team will be around for a bit yet (but getting more expensive by the year), and their pitching is coming on, so the hope is there. Enjoy this shot. The odds are against any team. Look at the Braves - they won their division something like 14 or 15 years in a row and have one world series win to show for it. All a team can hope for, all a GM can try for, is to be there at the end with a shot. [NOTE - I am old and am doing this from memory, so my facts may be loose, but the idea isn't.]
But if you want to be depressed, check out the bucsdugout.com article today on the state of the lower minors.
for me, this year determines whether the Pirates are getting a bum rap or not. 98 wins and making the playoffs was great. Last year was a fail and at this point 2017 doesn't look great although there is plenty of time for things to improve.
I wonder if in a way their success caught up to them last year (by that I mean that they thought they could fix any pitcher)
that could be. They are confident in their process. My take is that they talked about process for a long time when team was losing, finally got to a winner (and with goal of producing a contender every year, no window, step back and have another window) so that if they have two bad years in a row then something is wrong.
I agree with Mouse about the report on minors being sobering too. The last three or four years of inability to identify and sign high end prospects in Latin America is a killer to a team that says it needs to build through prospects.
I do not want to look back in another year or two and say a team with the talent of Cole, Marte, Polanco, Cutch et. al had a three year peak and then we go back to being mediocre.
But if you want to be depressed, check out the bucsdugout.com article today on the state of the lower minors.
for me, this year determines whether the Pirates are getting a bum rap or not. 98 wins and making the playoffs was great. Last year was a fail and at this point 2017 doesn't look great although there is plenty of time for things to improve.
I wonder if in a way their success caught up to them last year (by that I mean that they thought they could fix any pitcher)
that could be. They are confident in their process. My take is that they talked about process for a long time when team was losing, finally got to a winner (and with goal of producing a contender every year, no window, step back and have another window) so that if they have two bad years in a row then something is wrong.
I agree with Mouse about the report on minors being sobering too. The last three or four years of inability to identify and sign high end prospects in Latin America is a killer to a team that says it needs to build through prospects.
I do not want to look back in another year or two and say a team with the talent of Cole, Marte, Polanco, Cutch et. al had a three year peak and then we go back to being mediocre.
What about the lineup?
I think we can cover that though. I don't necessarily think the low minors are bare. Wilbur Miller at BD gave a pretty good run down, I thought. Hayes is a solid prospect. I think Keller can be special. We have enough guys at the upper levels that should be here awhile (Meadows, Bell, Glasnow, Taillon) to cover for a dearth of talent in the low levels. In theory, they should give us enough time to retool in the low levels before they too are traded or leave via FA.
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OrlandoMerced
What about the lineup?
765051465040330 wrote:
that could be. They are confident in their process. My take is that they talked about process for a long time when team was losing, finally got to a winner (and with goal of producing a contender every year, no window, step back and have another window) so that if they have two bad years in a row then something is wrong.
I agree with Mouse about the report on minors being sobering too. The last three or four years of inability to identify and sign high end prospects in Latin America is a killer to a team that says it needs to build through prospects.
I do not want to look back in another year or two and say a team with the talent of Cole, Marte, Polanco, Cutch et. al had a three year peak and then we go back to being mediocre.
Teams are still feeling their way through the post-steroid era. The Cardinals seem to be the only franchise that has figured out how to remain competitive without just throwing money at everything all the time (see Dodgers). The Cubs and Astros employed the tanking strategy and the Red Sox combine retooling, prospect investments and FA signings.
Personally, I think the Red Sox are the best at leveraging their budget to build a competitive ML team and a strong ML system. I bet the only thing they ever regret are those FA contracts. The Red Sox have years of irrelevance mixed in with championship runs, granted their resources allows them to go from last to first easier than other teams, but their holistic approach to team building is what I believe NH does (sans the big dollar signings).
I guess my only point is that a down year isn't a sign of collapse for a team that's built like the Pirates, it was a sign of collapse for teams like the Reds, Royals and Brewers that weren't built for the present and the future simultaneously. Which is the way that all GM's should build their teams.
that could be. They are confident in their process. My take is that they talked about process for a long time when team was losing, finally got to a winner (and with goal of producing a contender every year, no window, step back and have another window) so that if they have two bad years in a row then something is wrong.
I agree with Mouse about the report on minors being sobering too. The last three or four years of inability to identify and sign high end prospects in Latin America is a killer to a team that says it needs to build through prospects.
I do not want to look back in another year or two and say a team with the talent of Cole, Marte, Polanco, Cutch et. al had a three year peak and then we go back to being mediocre.
Teams are still feeling their way through the post-steroid era. The Cardinals seem to be the only franchise that has figured out how to remain competitive without just throwing money at everything all the time (see Dodgers). The Cubs and Astros employed the tanking strategy and the Red Sox combine retooling, prospect investments and FA signings.
Personally, I think the Red Sox are the best at leveraging their budget to build a competitive ML team and a strong ML system. I bet the only thing they ever regret are those FA contracts. The Red Sox have years of irrelevance mixed in with championship runs, granted their resources allows them to go from last to first easier than other teams, but their holistic approach to team building is what I believe NH does (sans the big dollar signings).
I guess my only point is that a down year isn't a sign of collapse for a team that's built like the Pirates, it was a sign of collapse for teams like the Reds, Royals and Brewers that weren't built for the present and the future simultaneously. Which is the way that all GM's should build their teams.
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rucker59@gmail.com
What about the lineup?
5E4367656B0E0 wrote: I also thought Cutch came into the season trying to compensate for the power lost on Alvarez and Walker. Marte should have more power but I'll take his .300+ BA if he doesn't. But even Clemente had little power his first few years. Bell should be a huge improvement over Jaso's offense. I like the lineup. With the right pitching, this would be a great team.
That's a strong endorsement of the lineup, but I agree with you. I think this can be a great lineup. This is not about pitching, but the potential of the lineup practically begs for a high-end addition to the rotation.
I don't think the Pirates are that far from contending with the Cubs, but it will take a commitment from the FO. It would be a shame to watch this lineup get buried by "average" pitching.
The lineup could be good, if everyone does what its supposed to be. However, we are far away from the Cubs.
Why we aren't close ...
Who would you rather have ...
Arrieta, Hendricks, Lester and Wade Davis closing
or
Cole, Taillon, ??? and Tony Watson closing
There is zero commitment here to put out a quality product. I'm not sure we have average pitching.
Most of baseball would say the same thing about their first 3 pitchers and closer compared to the Cubs. What's the point of this? They Cubs also paid nearly $200 million for a guy that wound up sitting the bench as they won a world series. They have money that the Pirates and most of MLB doesn't have. Apparently most teams in MLB have zero commitment to putting out a quality product.
This is just wrong thinking IMHO. I was predicting the Cubs to be a juggernaut two season ago, but I'm in no way prepared to concede anything to them because I think the Pirate could (could've?) gone eyeball to eyeball with them even on those front three pitchers.
Maybe Arrieta, Hendricks and Lester would be better than Sale, Cole and Taillon, and maybe not. Of course that ship has sailed, but the Pirates could have been in on Sale and the whole race in the Central would be impacted. The Pirates made the choice to not compete which is very different than saying "no one can compete with the Cubs."
That's a strong endorsement of the lineup, but I agree with you. I think this can be a great lineup. This is not about pitching, but the potential of the lineup practically begs for a high-end addition to the rotation.
I don't think the Pirates are that far from contending with the Cubs, but it will take a commitment from the FO. It would be a shame to watch this lineup get buried by "average" pitching.
The lineup could be good, if everyone does what its supposed to be. However, we are far away from the Cubs.
Why we aren't close ...
Who would you rather have ...
Arrieta, Hendricks, Lester and Wade Davis closing
or
Cole, Taillon, ??? and Tony Watson closing
There is zero commitment here to put out a quality product. I'm not sure we have average pitching.
Most of baseball would say the same thing about their first 3 pitchers and closer compared to the Cubs. What's the point of this? They Cubs also paid nearly $200 million for a guy that wound up sitting the bench as they won a world series. They have money that the Pirates and most of MLB doesn't have. Apparently most teams in MLB have zero commitment to putting out a quality product.
This is just wrong thinking IMHO. I was predicting the Cubs to be a juggernaut two season ago, but I'm in no way prepared to concede anything to them because I think the Pirate could (could've?) gone eyeball to eyeball with them even on those front three pitchers.
Maybe Arrieta, Hendricks and Lester would be better than Sale, Cole and Taillon, and maybe not. Of course that ship has sailed, but the Pirates could have been in on Sale and the whole race in the Central would be impacted. The Pirates made the choice to not compete which is very different than saying "no one can compete with the Cubs."
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OrlandoMerced
What about the lineup?
I don't think the Pirates could have matched the Nationals offer for Sale, and they were the runner up. The Pirates couldn't have gotten Sale.