Like all Pirate fans, I want to see the team field a winning and contending team each and every year. When the team was in the midst of 20 consecutive years of pain, I almost numbed myself to expecting and accepting the constant losing. Now that the team made the play-offs for three straight years before falling back last year and stumbling again this year, I am more troubled with accepting losing, particularly when the team appeared to have a lot of promise (e.g. dream outfield).
In looking at where the Bucs now sit, I almost wish that this year was more like last year when the Cubs were destroying everyone and the Pirates clearly knew that there was almost no chance for them to make the play-offs. This year the poor play in the NL Central creates the illusion (and maybe even the reality) that this team could make the play-offs by winning a weak NL central.
We hear the drumbeat of optimism nearly every day:
Hey, we didn't win but we're only 6 games out of first place.
Cutch is back.
Cole is pitching well again (it may have only been for 2 starts and ended on Friday night but when you are reaching for straws you are willing to drink the juice)
The rookies are carrying the day (after one game in which 4 rookies contributed to the victory).
Marte is back on July 18.
Folks in the pen, other than Rivero, actually put a few zeros on the board.
While I want to share the optimism and recognize that this team unexpectedly could go on a run in which it inexplicably wins 10 of 13 or so and really starts to sniff first place, I have an even greater belief that we may have already seen the best that this team has to offer and that they will continue to be a sub-500 team. Why?
Cutch has been on fire, but they continue to lose. Tallion returns from cancer in the short span of 3 weeks and actually pitches well enough to win games. Jody Mercer has already had his annual torrid run and is now set to return being a .250 hitter. Bell has a lot of xbh's but is still only hitting .230 or so. Nova has been better than any of us should have expected and Rivero looks like Chapman. In short, a lot has been going right, but the team isn't clicking.
From where I sit there are about 10 more games (the all-star break) in the season. If the team doesn't go on a run in which they actually win games (not .500 play) then I go into sell mode; and I would sell more than I hold. But, I am not selling just to save money, I am selling to improve the future prospects of the team for 2018 and beyond (adding talent).
In past posts I stated that I believe the Pirates have about as much talent as anyone to offer at the deadline. If good offers are made, the Pirates should strongly consider accepting such.
And Bob Nutting ---- It is not a good sign when it is the end of June - beginning of July and:
School is out,
There are no other sports pulling away fans,
It is a nice night,
and you can't draw 30,000.
Sure wish the team was at a different place, but right now things do no look very good.
FIRE SALE!!
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
-
LumberCo
FIRE SALE!!
I also think it is time to sell, had the owner let the GM do what needed done going back two winters ago we would not be selling right now, we would be leading the division. lying cheep-scat owner is the root of all our problems!! all the cheep owners we have had to endure as Pirate fans over the decades you would think just once we could have one that allowed us to compete at least to the mid level of MLB Nope we get stuck with a salary limit 50 Million below the league average. will it ever end? UGH 
>:(
>:(-
rucker59@gmail.com
FIRE SALE!!
Reading this thread - I'm angry. I'm angry at an ownership that so brazenly mocks a public trust and responsibility, a FO that lies for the ownership and over and over mocks dedicated fans.
I'm angry that the pirate fans have made the owner a Billionaire as the value of his investment multiplies nearly 10-fold over 10 years, yet the owner squeezes the bottomline for another dollar of profit.
I'm angry the owner won't run the team like the rest of MLB AND he won't consider selling.
I'm angry that some fans would question my loyalty when I give this owner literally thousands of dollars each year, and it was obvious two years ago that the ownership and the FO collectively gave the fans a lecture for asking questions and "the finger" for being a fan.
I'm angry that Speedloader and Notes have to try to walk away from something that should be a simple joy.
Maybe I'll walk away too. Maybe I'll make this the last year I get my STs. Maybe I'll walk away because right now I'm angry that a few people have the "right" to destroy something that is actually much bigger than they are and doesn't truly belong to them.
I'm angry that the pirate fans have made the owner a Billionaire as the value of his investment multiplies nearly 10-fold over 10 years, yet the owner squeezes the bottomline for another dollar of profit.
I'm angry the owner won't run the team like the rest of MLB AND he won't consider selling.
I'm angry that some fans would question my loyalty when I give this owner literally thousands of dollars each year, and it was obvious two years ago that the ownership and the FO collectively gave the fans a lecture for asking questions and "the finger" for being a fan.
I'm angry that Speedloader and Notes have to try to walk away from something that should be a simple joy.
Maybe I'll walk away too. Maybe I'll make this the last year I get my STs. Maybe I'll walk away because right now I'm angry that a few people have the "right" to destroy something that is actually much bigger than they are and doesn't truly belong to them.
FIRE SALE!!
3235232B2532757900272D21292C6E232F2D400 wrote: Reading this thread - I'm angry. I'm angry at an ownership that so brazenly mocks a public trust and responsibility, a FO that lies for the ownership and over and over mocks dedicated fans.
I'm angry that the pirate fans have made the owner a Billionaire as the value of his investment multiplies nearly 10-fold over 10 years, yet the owner squeezes the bottomline for another dollar of profit.
I'm angry the owner won't run the team like the rest of MLB AND he won't consider selling.
I'm angry that some fans would question my loyalty when I give this owner literally thousands of dollars each year, and it was obvious two years ago that the ownership and the FO collectively gave the fans a lecture for asking questions and "the finger" for being a fan.
I'm angry that Speedloader and Notes have to try to walk away from something that should be a simple joy.
Maybe I'll walk away too. Maybe I'll make this the last year I get my STs. Maybe I'll walk away because right now I'm angry that a few people have the "right" to destroy something that is actually much bigger than they are and doesn't truly belong to them.
I love reading his kind of anger and passion from Pirates fans, especially from a long time season ticket holder, like yourself.
But wasn't it just like a week or two ago, last time we were playing OK, that you were starting to really like the core and saw some real positive signs that we were just a few tweaks away from being contenders?
Kinda feels like next time we win four in a row, you'll be contemplating upgrading your tickets to better seats.
I'm angry that the pirate fans have made the owner a Billionaire as the value of his investment multiplies nearly 10-fold over 10 years, yet the owner squeezes the bottomline for another dollar of profit.
I'm angry the owner won't run the team like the rest of MLB AND he won't consider selling.
I'm angry that some fans would question my loyalty when I give this owner literally thousands of dollars each year, and it was obvious two years ago that the ownership and the FO collectively gave the fans a lecture for asking questions and "the finger" for being a fan.
I'm angry that Speedloader and Notes have to try to walk away from something that should be a simple joy.
Maybe I'll walk away too. Maybe I'll make this the last year I get my STs. Maybe I'll walk away because right now I'm angry that a few people have the "right" to destroy something that is actually much bigger than they are and doesn't truly belong to them.
I love reading his kind of anger and passion from Pirates fans, especially from a long time season ticket holder, like yourself.
But wasn't it just like a week or two ago, last time we were playing OK, that you were starting to really like the core and saw some real positive signs that we were just a few tweaks away from being contenders?
Kinda feels like next time we win four in a row, you'll be contemplating upgrading your tickets to better seats.
FIRE SALE!!
It is sad that a fire sale is what must happen. Under Nutting's ownership the payroll will have to be made up primarily of young, low cost talent, home-grown being optimal. Keeping Cutch isn't an option under these circumstances. Keeping Cole may be unwise as well since the Pirates must have a steady infusion of younger (cheaper) talent to satisfy ownership's self-imposed, unilateral salary cap. Whoever the Pirates end up selling they'd best get some can't miss talent in return because their future success will depend on it.
How different the situation would be right now if after 2015 ownership had approved a payroll increase to allow the addition of one top-notch FA starting pitcher. Imagine having any one of J.A. Happ, David Wright, or Zack Greinke in our rotation right now. Would we be leading the Central division? Not hard to imagine that this could have been the year we win it. Would PNC Park be filled to close to capacity every game? Also not hard to imagine. Would the fans have reason for optimism? I believe so. The additional payroll for any of those 3 pitchers would put the current Pirate team at $124M, $139M, or $143M respectively. The current MLB average is $146M. For comparison the Cards have a payroll of $150M and the Royals $152M.
Sad indeed... :-[
How different the situation would be right now if after 2015 ownership had approved a payroll increase to allow the addition of one top-notch FA starting pitcher. Imagine having any one of J.A. Happ, David Wright, or Zack Greinke in our rotation right now. Would we be leading the Central division? Not hard to imagine that this could have been the year we win it. Would PNC Park be filled to close to capacity every game? Also not hard to imagine. Would the fans have reason for optimism? I believe so. The additional payroll for any of those 3 pitchers would put the current Pirate team at $124M, $139M, or $143M respectively. The current MLB average is $146M. For comparison the Cards have a payroll of $150M and the Royals $152M.
Sad indeed... :-[
FIRE SALE!!
I`m ready to sell.
This team has gone as far as it can go. We had our chance and now its over.
Trade
Cutch
Cole
Harrison
Watson
Jaso
Stewart
Kuhl to the pen and Bauralt up. Hutchinson up to start . Glasnow to the pen.
Tallion
Nova
Bauralt
Hutchison
Williams
We can work with that to finish the season
This team has gone as far as it can go. We had our chance and now its over.
Trade
Cutch
Cole
Harrison
Watson
Jaso
Stewart
Kuhl to the pen and Bauralt up. Hutchinson up to start . Glasnow to the pen.
Tallion
Nova
Bauralt
Hutchison
Williams
We can work with that to finish the season
-
rucker59@gmail.com
FIRE SALE!!
7C5C4F52533D0 wrote: Reading this thread - I'm angry. I'm angry at an ownership that so brazenly mocks a public trust and responsibility, a FO that lies for the ownership and over and over mocks dedicated fans.
I'm angry that the pirate fans have made the owner a Billionaire as the value of his investment multiplies nearly 10-fold over 10 years, yet the owner squeezes the bottomline for another dollar of profit.
I'm angry the owner won't run the team like the rest of MLB AND he won't consider selling.
I'm angry that some fans would question my loyalty when I give this owner literally thousands of dollars each year, and it was obvious two years ago that the ownership and the FO collectively gave the fans a lecture for asking questions and "the finger" for being a fan.
I'm angry that Speedloader and Notes have to try to walk away from something that should be a simple joy.
Maybe I'll walk away too. Maybe I'll make this the last year I get my STs. Maybe I'll walk away because right now I'm angry that a few people have the "right" to destroy something that is actually much bigger than they are and doesn't truly belong to them.
I love reading his kind of anger and passion from Pirates fans, especially from a long time season ticket holder, like yourself.
But wasn't it just like a week or two ago, last time we were playing OK, that you were starting to really like the core and saw some real positive signs that we were just a few tweaks away from being contenders?
Kinda feels like next time we win four in a row, you'll be contemplating upgrading your tickets to better seats.
Fair question. It is easy to bounce around as a fan. We get jerked up And down by the change in the tide. But I think what you've seen from me is disbelief that we're somehow (or were before the weekend) in a real race. Given the opportunity to win a division and I'm all in. But the reality is that this team has no chance because the FO will do NOTHING to actually give the team its best chance.
All along, for a number of years, i've felt like there is a good core to build around. If they had the desire, this team could be a divisional champion. But the FO has no desire. So, the worse thing that can happen, imho, is to just sit still. Add or sale. But don't sit. I can go either way, but I hate the way the team is actually being run.
I'm angry that the pirate fans have made the owner a Billionaire as the value of his investment multiplies nearly 10-fold over 10 years, yet the owner squeezes the bottomline for another dollar of profit.
I'm angry the owner won't run the team like the rest of MLB AND he won't consider selling.
I'm angry that some fans would question my loyalty when I give this owner literally thousands of dollars each year, and it was obvious two years ago that the ownership and the FO collectively gave the fans a lecture for asking questions and "the finger" for being a fan.
I'm angry that Speedloader and Notes have to try to walk away from something that should be a simple joy.
Maybe I'll walk away too. Maybe I'll make this the last year I get my STs. Maybe I'll walk away because right now I'm angry that a few people have the "right" to destroy something that is actually much bigger than they are and doesn't truly belong to them.
I love reading his kind of anger and passion from Pirates fans, especially from a long time season ticket holder, like yourself.
But wasn't it just like a week or two ago, last time we were playing OK, that you were starting to really like the core and saw some real positive signs that we were just a few tweaks away from being contenders?
Kinda feels like next time we win four in a row, you'll be contemplating upgrading your tickets to better seats.
Fair question. It is easy to bounce around as a fan. We get jerked up And down by the change in the tide. But I think what you've seen from me is disbelief that we're somehow (or were before the weekend) in a real race. Given the opportunity to win a division and I'm all in. But the reality is that this team has no chance because the FO will do NOTHING to actually give the team its best chance.
All along, for a number of years, i've felt like there is a good core to build around. If they had the desire, this team could be a divisional champion. But the FO has no desire. So, the worse thing that can happen, imho, is to just sit still. Add or sale. But don't sit. I can go either way, but I hate the way the team is actually being run.
-
Bobster21
FIRE SALE!!
3F382E26283F78740D2A202C2421632E22204D0 wrote: Reading this thread - I'm angry. I'm angry at an ownership that so brazenly mocks a public trust and responsibility, a FO that lies for the ownership and over and over mocks dedicated fans.
I'm angry that the pirate fans have made the owner a Billionaire as the value of his investment multiplies nearly 10-fold over 10 years, yet the owner squeezes the bottomline for another dollar of profit.
I'm angry the owner won't run the team like the rest of MLB AND he won't consider selling.
I'm angry that some fans would question my loyalty when I give this owner literally thousands of dollars each year, and it was obvious two years ago that the ownership and the FO collectively gave the fans a lecture for asking questions and "the finger" for being a fan.
I'm angry that Speedloader and Notes have to try to walk away from something that should be a simple joy.
Maybe I'll walk away too. Maybe I'll make this the last year I get my STs. Maybe I'll walk away because right now I'm angry that a few people have the "right" to destroy something that is actually much bigger than they are and doesn't truly belong to them.
I love reading his kind of anger and passion from Pirates fans, especially from a long time season ticket holder, like yourself.
But wasn't it just like a week or two ago, last time we were playing OK, that you were starting to really like the core and saw some real positive signs that we were just a few tweaks away from being contenders?
Kinda feels like next time we win four in a row, you'll be contemplating upgrading your tickets to better seats.
Fair question. It is easy to bounce around as a fan. We get jerked up And down by the change in the tide. But I think what you've seen from me is disbelief that we're somehow (or were before the weekend) in a real race. Given the opportunity to win a division and I'm all in. But the reality is that this team has no chance because the FO will do NOTHING to actually give the team its best chance.
All along, for a number of years, i've felt like there is a good core to build around. If they had the desire, this team could be a divisional champion. But the FO has no desire. So, the worse thing that can happen, imho, is to just sit still. Add or sale. But don't sit. I can go either way, but I hate the way the team is actually being run.
So true, VA. There is a disconnect between the Nutting regime and fans. Fans look at the roster and say, "We have a good core. If we tweak it here and there and add a little it can be a championship caliber team." But the Nutting regime seems to say, "It's nice that we have as much as we have but we won't increase our tiny payroll to add more and we will move what we have to save money." The fans look at what the FO is doing and hope that what they think is happening isn't really happening. Fans keep waiting for the moves that will enhance the roster. But the FO keeps waiting for the moves that will increase revenue. The worst thing that could happen right now for fans is that while the team is floundering due to FO indifference and penny pinching, the rest of the division is playing poorly enough to give the impression that the 37-45 Pirates are in a pennant race. How absurd. If that 37-45 record was deservedly 15 or so games behind, fans would be outraged at the Nutting cheapo regime. But instead, Nutting gets to pretend he presides over a team in a pennant race.
Why do I get the feeling that Nutting is Moe and the rest of us are Larry and Curly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZgVRJ-H8U" style="border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%">
I'm angry that the pirate fans have made the owner a Billionaire as the value of his investment multiplies nearly 10-fold over 10 years, yet the owner squeezes the bottomline for another dollar of profit.
I'm angry the owner won't run the team like the rest of MLB AND he won't consider selling.
I'm angry that some fans would question my loyalty when I give this owner literally thousands of dollars each year, and it was obvious two years ago that the ownership and the FO collectively gave the fans a lecture for asking questions and "the finger" for being a fan.
I'm angry that Speedloader and Notes have to try to walk away from something that should be a simple joy.
Maybe I'll walk away too. Maybe I'll make this the last year I get my STs. Maybe I'll walk away because right now I'm angry that a few people have the "right" to destroy something that is actually much bigger than they are and doesn't truly belong to them.
I love reading his kind of anger and passion from Pirates fans, especially from a long time season ticket holder, like yourself.
But wasn't it just like a week or two ago, last time we were playing OK, that you were starting to really like the core and saw some real positive signs that we were just a few tweaks away from being contenders?
Kinda feels like next time we win four in a row, you'll be contemplating upgrading your tickets to better seats.
Fair question. It is easy to bounce around as a fan. We get jerked up And down by the change in the tide. But I think what you've seen from me is disbelief that we're somehow (or were before the weekend) in a real race. Given the opportunity to win a division and I'm all in. But the reality is that this team has no chance because the FO will do NOTHING to actually give the team its best chance.
All along, for a number of years, i've felt like there is a good core to build around. If they had the desire, this team could be a divisional champion. But the FO has no desire. So, the worse thing that can happen, imho, is to just sit still. Add or sale. But don't sit. I can go either way, but I hate the way the team is actually being run.
So true, VA. There is a disconnect between the Nutting regime and fans. Fans look at the roster and say, "We have a good core. If we tweak it here and there and add a little it can be a championship caliber team." But the Nutting regime seems to say, "It's nice that we have as much as we have but we won't increase our tiny payroll to add more and we will move what we have to save money." The fans look at what the FO is doing and hope that what they think is happening isn't really happening. Fans keep waiting for the moves that will enhance the roster. But the FO keeps waiting for the moves that will increase revenue. The worst thing that could happen right now for fans is that while the team is floundering due to FO indifference and penny pinching, the rest of the division is playing poorly enough to give the impression that the 37-45 Pirates are in a pennant race. How absurd. If that 37-45 record was deservedly 15 or so games behind, fans would be outraged at the Nutting cheapo regime. But instead, Nutting gets to pretend he presides over a team in a pennant race.
Why do I get the feeling that Nutting is Moe and the rest of us are Larry and Curly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZgVRJ-H8U" style="border:0;height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;width:100%">
-
DemDog
FIRE SALE!!
5C7F6A6A6B63606E6B6A7D37370F0 wrote: I have been thinking about this club and what parts to trade. I have concluded that were I a general manager, I would put a "For Sale" sign up in the window and put everything on the sidewalk! The only players that would not be on the sidewalk sale would be Taillon and Josh Bell. I would move any and all other players on the major league club. I would expect significant returns for Cole (cause maybe some day), Harrison, Mercer, Nova and McCutchen. I would infuse this organization with as much young potential as possible and try to air out my barn by unloading as many roster players as possible.
Of course, I am also a reactionary type personality, so I know that many other types would consider this too radical and unbalanced. I understand that....
Seeing you are from Wheeling WV I can understand your comments. I guess you must have had a real great party for the 4th and had a bit too much of that especially good WV shine! ;D
My moonshine connection passed away sadly but I am a Bourbon enthusiasts. Alas, I am working OT today and have not yet pursued my enthusiasm........ yet!
Me too!
Of course, I am also a reactionary type personality, so I know that many other types would consider this too radical and unbalanced. I understand that....
Seeing you are from Wheeling WV I can understand your comments. I guess you must have had a real great party for the 4th and had a bit too much of that especially good WV shine! ;D
My moonshine connection passed away sadly but I am a Bourbon enthusiasts. Alas, I am working OT today and have not yet pursued my enthusiasm........ yet!
Me too!
FIRE SALE!!
1F3F2C31305E0 wrote: If you changed the names to Bay, Nady, LaRoche, Wilson, Sanchez, Maholm, Doumit, Snell, Duke and Capps this would easily be a post from 9 years ago. So we've come full circle to NH's first year as Pirate GM.
Out of that list of names I think maybe there were 1-2 good seasons total combined after they were traded for the rest of their contract.
1 season for Bay and maybe a half for Nady. Maybe somebody els had a half of a good season? The rest were pretty much hot garbage
You're missing the point. This time 9 years ago fans were screaming to tear the team down (rightfully so), as they are today (possibly rightfully so.
The other point is how did the Pirates essentially end up right where they were after NH took over? Meaning, a losing team without a highly ranked minor league system. Things may be better than they were in 2007, but the difference isn't as great as many would have you believe.
2007 - won 68 games.
2017 - on pace to win 74 games.
2007 - minor league system ranked 19th.
2017 - minor league system likely to be ranked middle of pack.
So both teams did not have enough talent at either the MLB level or in the minors to realistically win now or the near future. As a result, fans were screaming for a fire sale. Deja Vu?
Keith Law had our systemranked 4th and baseball America had it ranked 7th.
Our bullpen is a mess, the defense is a mess, the hitting a mess, but we have a decent core and there is nothing wrong with our farm.
Out of that list of names I think maybe there were 1-2 good seasons total combined after they were traded for the rest of their contract.
1 season for Bay and maybe a half for Nady. Maybe somebody els had a half of a good season? The rest were pretty much hot garbage
You're missing the point. This time 9 years ago fans were screaming to tear the team down (rightfully so), as they are today (possibly rightfully so.
The other point is how did the Pirates essentially end up right where they were after NH took over? Meaning, a losing team without a highly ranked minor league system. Things may be better than they were in 2007, but the difference isn't as great as many would have you believe.
2007 - won 68 games.
2017 - on pace to win 74 games.
2007 - minor league system ranked 19th.
2017 - minor league system likely to be ranked middle of pack.
So both teams did not have enough talent at either the MLB level or in the minors to realistically win now or the near future. As a result, fans were screaming for a fire sale. Deja Vu?
Keith Law had our systemranked 4th and baseball America had it ranked 7th.
Our bullpen is a mess, the defense is a mess, the hitting a mess, but we have a decent core and there is nothing wrong with our farm.