426F62737465723231000 wrote: I think he really enjoys being an MLB owner. But he'll do it on his own terms, which is to spend as little as possible. He wants to have a good team. He just won't pay for one. So he tasks NH with trying to somehow assemble as good a team as possible on a shoestring payroll. But it costs more to sustain success because salaries increase yearly. So even if NH succeeds in assembling a quality team as he did 2013-15, rule #1 requires that salaries be purged to prevent any significant payroll increases. It's as if he said to NH after 2015, "You did a fine job, now tear it down and start over." The goal is always to win. But that goal is superseded by the strict financial constraints. NH knows his job and signed on for 4 more years. He probably realizes that if he can build a cheap, competitive team for a brief time before the pieces have to be sold off again, he's done his job.
This is a great post and great analysis. It seems clear to me that payroll is really destined to top out at $100-105 million if things shake out the right way. That is the Bob Nutting limit. None of us know why that is the limit or if it is reasonable. But it seems to be the limit. The real question of any consequence is what do you do to build a winner if that is going to be the limit on a year to year basis?
I think you are right Bobster, NH and other management seem to be willing to take on that challenge. They have to know the constraints of their job. And, they have done it once (for three years). Maybe they can do it again. I am confident that the FO all want to win. I even think Nutting wants to win. But there is a hardline cap on how much they will spend to do it. If a person lets go of the emotion about that number and why it may exist, it think it is probably pretty hard to fault NH or the FO for their decisions of the last couple of days.
That said, I hate the nonsense that they say to the media about why they make these decisions. I would give anything for NH to just say it like it is. He doesn't even need to throw Nutting under the bus. Just something along the lines of, "We have a limit on our salaries that we have brushed up against for the last few years. We are not willing to over spend that. Therefore, when players reach their FA years and become more expensive, we simply won't be able to pay what they deserve while maintaining a balanced team. We would love to keep them, but due to our self imposed cap, we simply can't. Our process will be one of acquiring young and cost controlled talent that hopefully will be able to come together and give us solid production. We are going to always be a team that builds from trades and young talent while supplanting it with the occasional researched (cheap) veteran."
Everyone knows that's what they are doing. Would that honest really hurt? That's what they are doing and I'm ok with it. I'd rather they spend more money and be a real team. But this is their/my lot with the Pirates. There is something interesting about this approach too.
An observation
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
An observation
How come no one thinks they geared up for 2015? When they won 98 games. Yes, they came up short. They didn't win the division with the second best record in all of baseball, which is very rare.
I still don't think they were just trying to reduce payroll in 2016. They tried a different approach and the players didn't pan out. Even the star players in 2015 were terrible in 2016. Cole, Liriano, McCutchen, Harrison, Cervelli and Locke. They didn't lose because they brought in Vogelsong. They lost because the star players did nothing and Harrison wasn't better than Walker and no one was better than Alvarez and Morton, who were both run out of town. Bad talent evaluation for the replacements.
I still don't think they were just trying to reduce payroll in 2016. They tried a different approach and the players didn't pan out. Even the star players in 2015 were terrible in 2016. Cole, Liriano, McCutchen, Harrison, Cervelli and Locke. They didn't lose because they brought in Vogelsong. They lost because the star players did nothing and Harrison wasn't better than Walker and no one was better than Alvarez and Morton, who were both run out of town. Bad talent evaluation for the replacements.
An observation
6E656D6164657E3B3D4A736B6265652469650A0 wrote: How come no one thinks they geared up for 2015? When they won 98 games. Yes, they came up short. They didn't win the division with the second best record in all of baseball, which is very rare.
I still don't think they were just trying to reduce payroll in 2016. They tried a different approach and the players didn't pan out. Even the star players in 2015 were terrible in 2016. Cole, Liriano, McCutchen, Harrison, Cervelli and Locke. They didn't lose because they brought in Vogelsong. They lost because the star players did nothing and Harrison wasn't better than Walker and no one was better than Alvarez and Morton, who were both run out of town. Bad talent evaluation for the replacements.
I think that is very true. As much as everything went right the preceding years, so much went wrong that year. Unfortunately, the problem was with long term players. If McCutchen, Cole, Liriano, et al continued playing at the level they did during that playoff run, it's a different story.
I still don't think they were just trying to reduce payroll in 2016. They tried a different approach and the players didn't pan out. Even the star players in 2015 were terrible in 2016. Cole, Liriano, McCutchen, Harrison, Cervelli and Locke. They didn't lose because they brought in Vogelsong. They lost because the star players did nothing and Harrison wasn't better than Walker and no one was better than Alvarez and Morton, who were both run out of town. Bad talent evaluation for the replacements.
I think that is very true. As much as everything went right the preceding years, so much went wrong that year. Unfortunately, the problem was with long term players. If McCutchen, Cole, Liriano, et al continued playing at the level they did during that playoff run, it's a different story.
An observation
6246525A5F330 wrote: I'd be happy with anything that a new owner would want to do as long as he/she was up front about what the goals for the franchise are and then sticks to it.
The most irksome thing to me about this current sell off of assets is that for years ownership and management have been preaching their "perpetually competitive" B.S. Now that it's convenient they're saying that there was a "window" to compete and with that having ended it's time for a rebuild.
I'm not at all opposed to a rebuild, but it bothers me that the Pirate$ had a decent core group with Cole and Cutch that could have been supplemented with spending up to league average on payroll (which would be totally in line with the Pirates revenues) by going after a few quality free agents, and that this should have been precisely the action taken by the "perpetually competitive" blueprint they waved in front of the fanbase for so many years. In short I'm just fed up with the obfuscating B.S. that this ownership/management team have been spewing for so long.
I agree and then the window was slammed shut by management.
The most irksome thing to me about this current sell off of assets is that for years ownership and management have been preaching their "perpetually competitive" B.S. Now that it's convenient they're saying that there was a "window" to compete and with that having ended it's time for a rebuild.
I'm not at all opposed to a rebuild, but it bothers me that the Pirate$ had a decent core group with Cole and Cutch that could have been supplemented with spending up to league average on payroll (which would be totally in line with the Pirates revenues) by going after a few quality free agents, and that this should have been precisely the action taken by the "perpetually competitive" blueprint they waved in front of the fanbase for so many years. In short I'm just fed up with the obfuscating B.S. that this ownership/management team have been spewing for so long.
I agree and then the window was slammed shut by management.
An observation
524F6B6967020 wrote: I think he really enjoys being an MLB owner. But he'll do it on his own terms, which is to spend as little as possible. He wants to have a good team. He just won't pay for one. So he tasks NH with trying to somehow assemble as good a team as possible on a shoestring payroll. But it costs more to sustain success because salaries increase yearly. So even if NH succeeds in assembling a quality team as he did 2013-15, rule #1 requires that salaries be purged to prevent any significant payroll increases. It's as if he said to NH after 2015, "You did a fine job, now tear it down and start over." The goal is always to win. But that goal is superseded by the strict financial constraints. NH knows his job and signed on for 4 more years. He probably realizes that if he can build a cheap, competitive team for a brief time before the pieces have to be sold off again, he's done his job.
This is a great post and great analysis. It seems clear to me that payroll is really destined to top out at $100-105 million if things shake out the right way. That is the Bob Nutting limit. None of us know why that is the limit or if it is reasonable. But it seems to be the limit. The real question of any consequence is what do you do to build a winner if that is going to be the limit on a year to year basis?
I think you are right Bobster, NH and other management seem to be willing to take on that challenge. They have to know the constraints of their job. And, they have done it once (for three years). Maybe they can do it again. I am confident that the FO all want to win. I even think Nutting wants to win. But there is a hardline cap on how much they will spend to do it. If a person lets go of the emotion about that number and why it may exist, it think it is probably pretty hard to fault NH or the FO for their decisions of the last couple of days.
That said, I hate the nonsense that they say to the media about why they make these decisions. I would give anything for NH to just say it like it is. He doesn't even need to throw Nutting under the bus. Just something along the lines of, "We have a limit on our salaries that we have brushed up against for the last few years. We are not willing to over spend that. Therefore, when players reach their FA years and become more expensive, we simply won't be able to pay what they deserve while maintaining a balanced team. We would love to keep them, but due to our self imposed cap, we simply can't. Our process will be one of acquiring young and cost controlled talent that hopefully will be able to come together and give us solid production. We are going to always be a team that builds from trades and young talent while supplanting it with the occasional researched (cheap) veteran."
Everyone knows that's what they are doing. Would that honest really hurt? That's what they are doing and I'm ok with it. I'd rather they spend more money and be a real team. But this is their/my lot with the Pirates. There is something interesting about this approach too.
Honest approach? I bet NH and Nutting would say they have always been honest.
they are just scumbags and I can't see them building a winner with the Pirates in my lifetime.
It is still fun to go to games and root for the team. But there is a difference in rooting for wins on a game by game basis vs. rooting for a team in a pennant race.
There may not be 20 years of losing in store but there are x number of years without contending in the pipeline.
watch Nutting's and Huntington's video explanations on mlb.com https://www.mlb.com/pirates
"making the team more competitive etc.
Will play meaningful roles in the next Pittsburgh Pirates playoff teams.
Like they are promising the team is going to be in the playoffs in next few years. They think fans are morons.
This is a great post and great analysis. It seems clear to me that payroll is really destined to top out at $100-105 million if things shake out the right way. That is the Bob Nutting limit. None of us know why that is the limit or if it is reasonable. But it seems to be the limit. The real question of any consequence is what do you do to build a winner if that is going to be the limit on a year to year basis?
I think you are right Bobster, NH and other management seem to be willing to take on that challenge. They have to know the constraints of their job. And, they have done it once (for three years). Maybe they can do it again. I am confident that the FO all want to win. I even think Nutting wants to win. But there is a hardline cap on how much they will spend to do it. If a person lets go of the emotion about that number and why it may exist, it think it is probably pretty hard to fault NH or the FO for their decisions of the last couple of days.
That said, I hate the nonsense that they say to the media about why they make these decisions. I would give anything for NH to just say it like it is. He doesn't even need to throw Nutting under the bus. Just something along the lines of, "We have a limit on our salaries that we have brushed up against for the last few years. We are not willing to over spend that. Therefore, when players reach their FA years and become more expensive, we simply won't be able to pay what they deserve while maintaining a balanced team. We would love to keep them, but due to our self imposed cap, we simply can't. Our process will be one of acquiring young and cost controlled talent that hopefully will be able to come together and give us solid production. We are going to always be a team that builds from trades and young talent while supplanting it with the occasional researched (cheap) veteran."
Everyone knows that's what they are doing. Would that honest really hurt? That's what they are doing and I'm ok with it. I'd rather they spend more money and be a real team. But this is their/my lot with the Pirates. There is something interesting about this approach too.
Honest approach? I bet NH and Nutting would say they have always been honest.
they are just scumbags and I can't see them building a winner with the Pirates in my lifetime.
It is still fun to go to games and root for the team. But there is a difference in rooting for wins on a game by game basis vs. rooting for a team in a pennant race.
There may not be 20 years of losing in store but there are x number of years without contending in the pipeline.
watch Nutting's and Huntington's video explanations on mlb.com https://www.mlb.com/pirates
"making the team more competitive etc.
Will play meaningful roles in the next Pittsburgh Pirates playoff teams.
Like they are promising the team is going to be in the playoffs in next few years. They think fans are morons.
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rucker59@gmail.com
An observation
7D767E7277766D282E596078717676377A76190 wrote: If Bob Nutting sold the team to Derek Jeter, would you be ok with Jeter trading Cole, McCutchen, and probably others?
No. One bad owner doesn’t justify another bad owner. Obviously.
Nevertheless, are you defending Nutting? If so, I’d love to hear your arguement.
No. One bad owner doesn’t justify another bad owner. Obviously.
Nevertheless, are you defending Nutting? If so, I’d love to hear your arguement.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
An observation
3334222A2433747801262C20282D6F222E2C410 wrote: If Bob Nutting sold the team to Derek Jeter, would you be ok with Jeter trading Cole, McCutchen, and probably others?
No. One bad owner doesn’t justify another bad owner. Obviously.
Nevertheless, are you defending Nutting? If so, I’d love to hear your arguement.
No, you asked "why don't he just sale?". So, I asked if a new owner, like Jeter, did this, would you have the same outrage. A new owner would surely sell everyone too. We just saw the only new owner salary dump the current MVP.
I am not defending Nutting. I am not shocked as I predicted this a long time ago. I felt the team could have added and contended instead of trading everyone. It is what it is. I just hope the rebuild in only three years and not five or six.
I also don't understand this rebuild. It's like they are doing it with guys who are 24-25 years old now. Most rebuilds are with younger players. We will see. I will still follow the team and support the Pirates as a fan.
No. One bad owner doesn’t justify another bad owner. Obviously.
Nevertheless, are you defending Nutting? If so, I’d love to hear your arguement.
No, you asked "why don't he just sale?". So, I asked if a new owner, like Jeter, did this, would you have the same outrage. A new owner would surely sell everyone too. We just saw the only new owner salary dump the current MVP.
I am not defending Nutting. I am not shocked as I predicted this a long time ago. I felt the team could have added and contended instead of trading everyone. It is what it is. I just hope the rebuild in only three years and not five or six.
I also don't understand this rebuild. It's like they are doing it with guys who are 24-25 years old now. Most rebuilds are with younger players. We will see. I will still follow the team and support the Pirates as a fan.
An observation
Of course, it could be a super-competitive thing. We all know how competitive athletes are (that pitcher in Major League who allegedly threw at his son in a father-son game). Maybe GM's are the same. Maybe NH saw what Jeter was up to and was determined to beat him to the lowest payroll . . . 
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BucsFaninGA
An observation
No matter how you slice it, dice it, write it up...This team is built around being financially conscious and making a profit. I think it is pretty vindictive that a former Pirates, Sid Bream, even stepped out and voiced an opinion on our prestigious ownership at PiratesFest this December.
I, like others here, have been a Pirates fan for years. I became a Bucs fan due to Grandpa working at US Steel and rooting for the Pirates to beat those darn Yankees in 1960. I was all of 3 years old then...Well recall the Bucs of the 60’s, The Lumber Company of the mid 70’s, that awesome World Series in 1971, Chuck’s Bucs and the World Series in 1979, the Drug Fiasco of the 80’s and then the days under Sid Thrift and Jimmy Leyland and the defeat at the hands of the Atlanta Braves, the demise of the franchise to the point of becoming a laughing stock in the days after 1991, purchase of the club by McCarthy and then Ogden Nutting’s move to own the Bucs and the handoff to Bob “McScrooge”…
That blue-collar, hardworking, underdog theme is still in Pittsburgh. As Charlie Daniels says, the Steelers are his team! The Bucs are my team, but dang I hate people pulling the politically correct crap. Sports are our escape and entertainment as fans. This nonsense that Nutting, Huntington and Connelly peddle is something you scrap off your shoes when you walk through the chicken yard...
Darn it,I labored through the nonsense that Kevin McClatchy and David Littlefield peddled, but this nonsense now reeks of a dollar conscious owner and two lieutenants who know how to follow his lead.
I love my Bucs, but this ownership group would fiddle while Rome burned...They will put money in their pockets, claim they have done all they can, and send our stars packing when they don't want to pay for their achievements. If Nutting owned the Penguins, Sid the Kid, would be long gone. Malkin would be on another team destined for the playoffs and we would be experiencing the hope of making the playoffs one year in the future when the stars and planets collided...
Beat'em Bucs
I, like others here, have been a Pirates fan for years. I became a Bucs fan due to Grandpa working at US Steel and rooting for the Pirates to beat those darn Yankees in 1960. I was all of 3 years old then...Well recall the Bucs of the 60’s, The Lumber Company of the mid 70’s, that awesome World Series in 1971, Chuck’s Bucs and the World Series in 1979, the Drug Fiasco of the 80’s and then the days under Sid Thrift and Jimmy Leyland and the defeat at the hands of the Atlanta Braves, the demise of the franchise to the point of becoming a laughing stock in the days after 1991, purchase of the club by McCarthy and then Ogden Nutting’s move to own the Bucs and the handoff to Bob “McScrooge”…
That blue-collar, hardworking, underdog theme is still in Pittsburgh. As Charlie Daniels says, the Steelers are his team! The Bucs are my team, but dang I hate people pulling the politically correct crap. Sports are our escape and entertainment as fans. This nonsense that Nutting, Huntington and Connelly peddle is something you scrap off your shoes when you walk through the chicken yard...
Darn it,I labored through the nonsense that Kevin McClatchy and David Littlefield peddled, but this nonsense now reeks of a dollar conscious owner and two lieutenants who know how to follow his lead.
I love my Bucs, but this ownership group would fiddle while Rome burned...They will put money in their pockets, claim they have done all they can, and send our stars packing when they don't want to pay for their achievements. If Nutting owned the Penguins, Sid the Kid, would be long gone. Malkin would be on another team destined for the playoffs and we would be experiencing the hope of making the playoffs one year in the future when the stars and planets collided...
Beat'em Bucs
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
An observation
2123393F294C0 wrote: Of course, it could be a super-competitive thing. We all know how competitive athletes are (that pitcher in Major League who allegedly threw at his son in a father-son game). Maybe GM's are the same. Maybe NH saw what Jeter was up to and was determined to beat him to the lowest payroll . . .
I remember when everyone was happy when McClatchy sold the team. I remember when people were happy when McClatchy bought the team too. He got a standing ovation at the 1996 Home Opener while it snowed.
I remember when everyone was happy when McClatchy sold the team. I remember when people were happy when McClatchy bought the team too. He got a standing ovation at the 1996 Home Opener while it snowed.