417C626F606A61436B7C6D6B6A0E0 wrote: I think there are a lot of things to be encouraged about, but I think we should veer from optimism until we see signs from the front office.
On the Mark Madden - Tim Williams axis, I am definitely on the Tim Williams side on the Pirates. I think we are finally at the nexus of the NH vision, deep pool of young players in their pre-arb years on the ML roster with some veterans under manageable contracts. A glut of prospects at the top levels of the minors, and a load of upside guys in the lower levels. They have recently had to add two minor league teams so that they could get their prospects playing time.
But while they've been able to fill ML roster spots with capable in house players (looking especially at the pitching staff), these aren't flash guys. And replacing Mercer with Newman and Harrison with Kramer isn't going to push this team into the playoffs. They have a higher floor than a lot of teams, but limited ceiling. The FO needs to figure out how to leverage prospects and money to upgrade the roster. I don't know that they know how to do that.
I think you're 100% right. Their dream is to put together a team they hope will be competitive but at a very low cost. And whatever they can develop is about all they will have because they won't pay for a substantial contract of a productive veteran to put the team over the hump. With the cost of pitching, they must have drooled at the thought of a rotation that included Taillon, Kuhl, Williams and Musgrove with depth of Kingham, Keller, Brault and Glasnow all at or barely over the MLB minimum. The problem is that it's difficult to produce an abundance of home grown excellence. Their range seems to run from a little below average to a little above average. Championships aren't won that way.
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
200D00111607105053620 wrote: I think there are a lot of things to be encouraged about, but I think we should veer from optimism until we see signs from the front office.
On the Mark Madden - Tim Williams axis, I am definitely on the Tim Williams side on the Pirates. I think we are finally at the nexus of the NH vision, deep pool of young players in their pre-arb years on the ML roster with some veterans under manageable contracts. A glut of prospects at the top levels of the minors, and a load of upside guys in the lower levels. They have recently had to add two minor league teams so that they could get their prospects playing time.
But while they've been able to fill ML roster spots with capable in house players (looking especially at the pitching staff), these aren't flash guys. And replacing Mercer with Newman and Harrison with Kramer isn't going to push this team into the playoffs. They have a higher floor than a lot of teams, but limited ceiling. The FO needs to figure out how to leverage prospects and money to upgrade the roster. I don't know that they know how to do that.
I think you're 100% right. Their dream is to put together a team they hope will be competitive but at a very low cost. And whatever they can develop is about all they will have because they won't pay for a substantial contract of a productive veteran to put the team over the hump. With the cost of pitching, they must have drooled at the thought of a rotation that included Taillon, Kuhl, Williams and Musgrove with depth of Kingham, Keller, Brault and Glasnow all at or barely over the MLB minimum. The problem is that it's difficult to produce an abundance of home grown excellence. Their range seems to run from a little below average to a little above average. Championships aren't won that way.
Oh we all know that is Nutting's brass ring. Just good enough to keep people interested, not good enough to win a lot of games. But their inexpensive.
On the Mark Madden - Tim Williams axis, I am definitely on the Tim Williams side on the Pirates. I think we are finally at the nexus of the NH vision, deep pool of young players in their pre-arb years on the ML roster with some veterans under manageable contracts. A glut of prospects at the top levels of the minors, and a load of upside guys in the lower levels. They have recently had to add two minor league teams so that they could get their prospects playing time.
But while they've been able to fill ML roster spots with capable in house players (looking especially at the pitching staff), these aren't flash guys. And replacing Mercer with Newman and Harrison with Kramer isn't going to push this team into the playoffs. They have a higher floor than a lot of teams, but limited ceiling. The FO needs to figure out how to leverage prospects and money to upgrade the roster. I don't know that they know how to do that.
I think you're 100% right. Their dream is to put together a team they hope will be competitive but at a very low cost. And whatever they can develop is about all they will have because they won't pay for a substantial contract of a productive veteran to put the team over the hump. With the cost of pitching, they must have drooled at the thought of a rotation that included Taillon, Kuhl, Williams and Musgrove with depth of Kingham, Keller, Brault and Glasnow all at or barely over the MLB minimum. The problem is that it's difficult to produce an abundance of home grown excellence. Their range seems to run from a little below average to a little above average. Championships aren't won that way.
Oh we all know that is Nutting's brass ring. Just good enough to keep people interested, not good enough to win a lot of games. But their inexpensive.
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OrlandoMerced
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
456865747362753536070 wrote: I think there are a lot of things to be encouraged about, but I think we should veer from optimism until we see signs from the front office.
On the Mark Madden - Tim Williams axis, I am definitely on the Tim Williams side on the Pirates. I think we are finally at the nexus of the NH vision, deep pool of young players in their pre-arb years on the ML roster with some veterans under manageable contracts. A glut of prospects at the top levels of the minors, and a load of upside guys in the lower levels. They have recently had to add two minor league teams so that they could get their prospects playing time.
But while they've been able to fill ML roster spots with capable in house players (looking especially at the pitching staff), these aren't flash guys. And replacing Mercer with Newman and Harrison with Kramer isn't going to push this team into the playoffs. They have a higher floor than a lot of teams, but limited ceiling. The FO needs to figure out how to leverage prospects and money to upgrade the roster. I don't know that they know how to do that.
I think you're 100% right. Their dream is to put together a team they hope will be competitive but at a very low cost. And whatever they can develop is about all they will have because they won't pay for a substantial contract of a productive veteran to put the team over the hump. With the cost of pitching, they must have drooled at the thought of a rotation that included Taillon, Kuhl, Williams and Musgrove with depth of Kingham, Keller, Brault and Glasnow all at or barely over the MLB minimum. The problem is that it's difficult to produce an abundance of home grown excellence. Their range seems to run from a little below average to a little above average. Championships aren't won that way.
I think the organization spent too much energy penciling their high profile prospects into the 25 man roster.
You can't employ placeholders to occupy spots until minor league guy "seems" ready. Prospects need to force their way on to the team, you can't have a John Jaso at 1B playing until Josh Bell looks good enough to hack it in the Majors.
Also, few players have inclining career arcs, there are ups and downs during development, and you can't spend too much time trying to time the productive years for when the guy is in his pre-arb or early arbitration years. There is too much of that in this organization, committing too early to prospects and not bringing in guys to challenge young players that they anoint in to the lineup.
Not enough earning it, I want to see more repercussions for poor play.
On the Mark Madden - Tim Williams axis, I am definitely on the Tim Williams side on the Pirates. I think we are finally at the nexus of the NH vision, deep pool of young players in their pre-arb years on the ML roster with some veterans under manageable contracts. A glut of prospects at the top levels of the minors, and a load of upside guys in the lower levels. They have recently had to add two minor league teams so that they could get their prospects playing time.
But while they've been able to fill ML roster spots with capable in house players (looking especially at the pitching staff), these aren't flash guys. And replacing Mercer with Newman and Harrison with Kramer isn't going to push this team into the playoffs. They have a higher floor than a lot of teams, but limited ceiling. The FO needs to figure out how to leverage prospects and money to upgrade the roster. I don't know that they know how to do that.
I think you're 100% right. Their dream is to put together a team they hope will be competitive but at a very low cost. And whatever they can develop is about all they will have because they won't pay for a substantial contract of a productive veteran to put the team over the hump. With the cost of pitching, they must have drooled at the thought of a rotation that included Taillon, Kuhl, Williams and Musgrove with depth of Kingham, Keller, Brault and Glasnow all at or barely over the MLB minimum. The problem is that it's difficult to produce an abundance of home grown excellence. Their range seems to run from a little below average to a little above average. Championships aren't won that way.
I think the organization spent too much energy penciling their high profile prospects into the 25 man roster.
You can't employ placeholders to occupy spots until minor league guy "seems" ready. Prospects need to force their way on to the team, you can't have a John Jaso at 1B playing until Josh Bell looks good enough to hack it in the Majors.
Also, few players have inclining career arcs, there are ups and downs during development, and you can't spend too much time trying to time the productive years for when the guy is in his pre-arb or early arbitration years. There is too much of that in this organization, committing too early to prospects and not bringing in guys to challenge young players that they anoint in to the lineup.
Not enough earning it, I want to see more repercussions for poor play.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
1F323F2E29382F6F6C5D0 wrote: I think there are a lot of things to be encouraged about, but I think we should veer from optimism until we see signs from the front office.
On the Mark Madden - Tim Williams axis, I am definitely on the Tim Williams side on the Pirates. I think we are finally at the nexus of the NH vision, deep pool of young players in their pre-arb years on the ML roster with some veterans under manageable contracts. A glut of prospects at the top levels of the minors, and a load of upside guys in the lower levels. They have recently had to add two minor league teams so that they could get their prospects playing time.
But while they've been able to fill ML roster spots with capable in house players (looking especially at the pitching staff), these aren't flash guys. And replacing Mercer with Newman and Harrison with Kramer isn't going to push this team into the playoffs. They have a higher floor than a lot of teams, but limited ceiling. The FO needs to figure out how to leverage prospects and money to upgrade the roster. I don't know that they know how to do that.
I think you're 100% right. Their dream is to put together a team they hope will be competitive but at a very low cost. And whatever they can develop is about all they will have because they won't pay for a substantial contract of a productive veteran to put the team over the hump. With the cost of pitching, they must have drooled at the thought of a rotation that included Taillon, Kuhl, Williams and Musgrove with depth of Kingham, Keller, Brault and Glasnow all at or barely over the MLB minimum. The problem is that it's difficult to produce an abundance of home grown excellence. Their range seems to run from a little below average to a little above average. Championships aren't won that way.
Bobster I think your remarks are ultimately correct: it’s hard to imagine more than a middling team with this approach unless they also spend the money needed to up grade key positions. I think we collectively think most positions are adequately filled, but I’m starting to realize that virtually every position should be evaluated for potential upgrade. The Pirates have no real “holes” but no real + players either (Marte maybe).
No one expects a roster full of + players, but a roster of average players will result in an average team. And that’s pretty much what we have: a bunch of average players resulting in an average team.
So maybe neal’s plan can create a foundation, but it must be supplemented if the goal is to win a WS. And wouldnt you know - that was the exact failure with the 2015 team; a very good foundation was not supplemented to upgrade as probably every other FO would have done. Then trying to maintain a balance between payroll and competing, we saw the magic (or luck) run out with the changes made to the 2016 team.
I do appreciate Orlando’s post very much: very reasonable and a realistic approach to allowing optimism to creep in. It’s easy to have tunnel vision and blowoff other prospectives, but Orlando’s post gives me a new prospective.
Maybe Neal is working “the plan” as well as it can be worked short of Nutting increasing the payroll range by 20-25% (from ~$100M Max to ~$125M Max in today MLB dollars).
Maybe Neal can hire a PR guy to convey the truth: “we have an internal pay range that is capped at $100M, we believe we can be a potential playoff team most years, and truly compete among the best in select years with this payroll by following the following plan faithfully.....”. Instead of picking fights with fans, instead of promising things they have no intention of ever doing, the fans can know the truth and I think most would complain about Nutting but look at the team and organization differently.
Orlando - keep posting from your prospective. Your post may be among the best ever posted as it has caused me to at least recognize and even consider your prospective.
On the Mark Madden - Tim Williams axis, I am definitely on the Tim Williams side on the Pirates. I think we are finally at the nexus of the NH vision, deep pool of young players in their pre-arb years on the ML roster with some veterans under manageable contracts. A glut of prospects at the top levels of the minors, and a load of upside guys in the lower levels. They have recently had to add two minor league teams so that they could get their prospects playing time.
But while they've been able to fill ML roster spots with capable in house players (looking especially at the pitching staff), these aren't flash guys. And replacing Mercer with Newman and Harrison with Kramer isn't going to push this team into the playoffs. They have a higher floor than a lot of teams, but limited ceiling. The FO needs to figure out how to leverage prospects and money to upgrade the roster. I don't know that they know how to do that.
I think you're 100% right. Their dream is to put together a team they hope will be competitive but at a very low cost. And whatever they can develop is about all they will have because they won't pay for a substantial contract of a productive veteran to put the team over the hump. With the cost of pitching, they must have drooled at the thought of a rotation that included Taillon, Kuhl, Williams and Musgrove with depth of Kingham, Keller, Brault and Glasnow all at or barely over the MLB minimum. The problem is that it's difficult to produce an abundance of home grown excellence. Their range seems to run from a little below average to a little above average. Championships aren't won that way.
Bobster I think your remarks are ultimately correct: it’s hard to imagine more than a middling team with this approach unless they also spend the money needed to up grade key positions. I think we collectively think most positions are adequately filled, but I’m starting to realize that virtually every position should be evaluated for potential upgrade. The Pirates have no real “holes” but no real + players either (Marte maybe).
No one expects a roster full of + players, but a roster of average players will result in an average team. And that’s pretty much what we have: a bunch of average players resulting in an average team.
So maybe neal’s plan can create a foundation, but it must be supplemented if the goal is to win a WS. And wouldnt you know - that was the exact failure with the 2015 team; a very good foundation was not supplemented to upgrade as probably every other FO would have done. Then trying to maintain a balance between payroll and competing, we saw the magic (or luck) run out with the changes made to the 2016 team.
I do appreciate Orlando’s post very much: very reasonable and a realistic approach to allowing optimism to creep in. It’s easy to have tunnel vision and blowoff other prospectives, but Orlando’s post gives me a new prospective.
Maybe Neal is working “the plan” as well as it can be worked short of Nutting increasing the payroll range by 20-25% (from ~$100M Max to ~$125M Max in today MLB dollars).
Maybe Neal can hire a PR guy to convey the truth: “we have an internal pay range that is capped at $100M, we believe we can be a potential playoff team most years, and truly compete among the best in select years with this payroll by following the following plan faithfully.....”. Instead of picking fights with fans, instead of promising things they have no intention of ever doing, the fans can know the truth and I think most would complain about Nutting but look at the team and organization differently.
Orlando - keep posting from your prospective. Your post may be among the best ever posted as it has caused me to at least recognize and even consider your prospective.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
665B4548474D46644C5B4A4C4D290 wrote: I think there are a lot of things to be encouraged about, but I think we should veer from optimism until we see signs from the front office.
On the Mark Madden - Tim Williams axis, I am definitely on the Tim Williams side on the Pirates. I think we are finally at the nexus of the NH vision, deep pool of young players in their pre-arb years on the ML roster with some veterans under manageable contracts. A glut of prospects at the top levels of the minors, and a load of upside guys in the lower levels. They have recently had to add two minor league teams so that they could get their prospects playing time.
But while they've been able to fill ML roster spots with capable in house players (looking especially at the pitching staff), these aren't flash guys. And replacing Mercer with Newman and Harrison with Kramer isn't going to push this team into the playoffs. They have a higher floor than a lot of teams, but limited ceiling. The FO needs to figure out how to leverage prospects and money to upgrade the roster. I don't know that they know how to do that.
I think you're 100% right. Their dream is to put together a team they hope will be competitive but at a very low cost. And whatever they can develop is about all they will have because they won't pay for a substantial contract of a productive veteran to put the team over the hump. With the cost of pitching, they must have drooled at the thought of a rotation that included Taillon, Kuhl, Williams and Musgrove with depth of Kingham, Keller, Brault and Glasnow all at or barely over the MLB minimum. The problem is that it's difficult to produce an abundance of home grown excellence. Their range seems to run from a little below average to a little above average. Championships aren't won that way.
I think the organization spent too much energy penciling their high profile prospects into the 25 man roster.
You can't employ placeholders to occupy spots until minor league guy "seems" ready. Prospects need to force their way on to the team, you can't have a John Jaso at 1B playing until Josh Bell looks good enough to hack it in the Majors.
Also, few players have inclining career arcs, there are ups and downs during development, and you can't spend too much time trying to time the productive years for when the guy is in his pre-arb or early arbitration years. There is too much of that in this organization, committing too early to prospects and not bringing in guys to challenge young players that they anoint in to the lineup.
Not enough earning it, I want to see more repercussions for poor play.
Sheezz - you’re nailing it!
Orlando for GM, or at least special consultant to the GM. And please, Orlando, stuff a sock in Neal and Frank’s mouth and you start delivering the message to Pirate fans.
On the Mark Madden - Tim Williams axis, I am definitely on the Tim Williams side on the Pirates. I think we are finally at the nexus of the NH vision, deep pool of young players in their pre-arb years on the ML roster with some veterans under manageable contracts. A glut of prospects at the top levels of the minors, and a load of upside guys in the lower levels. They have recently had to add two minor league teams so that they could get their prospects playing time.
But while they've been able to fill ML roster spots with capable in house players (looking especially at the pitching staff), these aren't flash guys. And replacing Mercer with Newman and Harrison with Kramer isn't going to push this team into the playoffs. They have a higher floor than a lot of teams, but limited ceiling. The FO needs to figure out how to leverage prospects and money to upgrade the roster. I don't know that they know how to do that.
I think you're 100% right. Their dream is to put together a team they hope will be competitive but at a very low cost. And whatever they can develop is about all they will have because they won't pay for a substantial contract of a productive veteran to put the team over the hump. With the cost of pitching, they must have drooled at the thought of a rotation that included Taillon, Kuhl, Williams and Musgrove with depth of Kingham, Keller, Brault and Glasnow all at or barely over the MLB minimum. The problem is that it's difficult to produce an abundance of home grown excellence. Their range seems to run from a little below average to a little above average. Championships aren't won that way.
I think the organization spent too much energy penciling their high profile prospects into the 25 man roster.
You can't employ placeholders to occupy spots until minor league guy "seems" ready. Prospects need to force their way on to the team, you can't have a John Jaso at 1B playing until Josh Bell looks good enough to hack it in the Majors.
Also, few players have inclining career arcs, there are ups and downs during development, and you can't spend too much time trying to time the productive years for when the guy is in his pre-arb or early arbitration years. There is too much of that in this organization, committing too early to prospects and not bringing in guys to challenge young players that they anoint in to the lineup.
Not enough earning it, I want to see more repercussions for poor play.
Sheezz - you’re nailing it!
Orlando for GM, or at least special consultant to the GM. And please, Orlando, stuff a sock in Neal and Frank’s mouth and you start delivering the message to Pirate fans.
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
The Josh Bell situation is really frustrating. I'm not faulting the org for sticking with him through April and May. May was actually good. June terrible again... They should have stuck with him. He showed offensive promise last year with his power numbers for a rookie. Of course it was the right thing to do to pencil him in and give him the opportunity to improve on his batting numbers from last year. You have to do that. however...
We are definitely back into the 1b curse. We have no decent 1bman now or in the future.
Bell's career numbers are that of Jaso now, over 1000 at bats and his defense is worst in the league. Basically he's a switch hitting Jaso, with significantly worse defense. This is not the future.
Don't move him to leadoff, move him to AAA to work on his swing. IF he's able to get his swing fixed and get back up to 25 hrs or so, you could trade him to an AL team.
It's July now. We should have been in evasive action, red alert mode in June with him. instead we're mid-July and he's batting leadoff and still botching at least a play a game, usually more.
If you cannot field, and you aren't hitting for a reasonable stretch, you can not play. It's a novel concept. Really advanced stuff. Our "analytics department" seems stumped by it.
We are definitely back into the 1b curse. We have no decent 1bman now or in the future.
Bell's career numbers are that of Jaso now, over 1000 at bats and his defense is worst in the league. Basically he's a switch hitting Jaso, with significantly worse defense. This is not the future.
Don't move him to leadoff, move him to AAA to work on his swing. IF he's able to get his swing fixed and get back up to 25 hrs or so, you could trade him to an AL team.
It's July now. We should have been in evasive action, red alert mode in June with him. instead we're mid-July and he's batting leadoff and still botching at least a play a game, usually more.
If you cannot field, and you aren't hitting for a reasonable stretch, you can not play. It's a novel concept. Really advanced stuff. Our "analytics department" seems stumped by it.
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Bobster21
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
454C44555B210 wrote: The Josh Bell situation is really frustrating. I'm not faulting the org for sticking with him through April and May. They should have. He showed offensive promise last year with his power numbers for a rookie. Of course it was the right thing to do to pencil him in and give him the opportunity to improve on his batting numbers from last year. You have to do that. however...
We are definitely back into the 1b curse. We have no decent 1bman now or in the future.
Bell's career numbers are that of Jaso now, over 1000 at bats and his defense is worst in the league. Basically he's a switch hitting Jaso, with significantly worse defense. This is not the future.
Don't move him to leadoff, move him to AAA to work on his swing. IF he's able to get his swing fixed and get back up to 25 hrs or so, you could trade him to an AL team.
It's July now. We should have been in evasive action, red alert mode in June with him. instead we're mid-July and he's batting leadoff and still botching at least a play a game, usually more.
If you cannot field, and you aren't hitting for a reasonable stretch, you can not play. It's a novel concept. Really advanced stuff. Our "analytics department" seems stumped by it.
I agree. With 26 HRs last year, he showed a lot of promise as a switch-hitting rookie. But now he's one of their worst players. No power. Terrible defense. Doesn't even know how to throw a ball (he shot puts it). Has 2 swings: chopping down for a grounder or alligator arming for a popup. They're riding it out with him and trying to accept him as a singles hitting leadoff guy. Maybe he'll figure his swing out in about 9 weeks like Polanco did. But that's too long to wait and too many losses to incur while a player figures out how to swing the bat when the same thing can be accomplished in AAA without hurting the MLB club. It would certainly get Bell's attention instead of him feeling like mgt will simply find a different role for him if he's a slap hitter instead of a power hitter. In the meantime it would give them a chance to see what Osuna could do at 1B with regular playing time. Or at least give more ABs to Freese. But that's not the sort of the thing the Pirates would do or they would have done it with Polanco when he couldn't figure out his swing for several months.
We are definitely back into the 1b curse. We have no decent 1bman now or in the future.
Bell's career numbers are that of Jaso now, over 1000 at bats and his defense is worst in the league. Basically he's a switch hitting Jaso, with significantly worse defense. This is not the future.
Don't move him to leadoff, move him to AAA to work on his swing. IF he's able to get his swing fixed and get back up to 25 hrs or so, you could trade him to an AL team.
It's July now. We should have been in evasive action, red alert mode in June with him. instead we're mid-July and he's batting leadoff and still botching at least a play a game, usually more.
If you cannot field, and you aren't hitting for a reasonable stretch, you can not play. It's a novel concept. Really advanced stuff. Our "analytics department" seems stumped by it.
I agree. With 26 HRs last year, he showed a lot of promise as a switch-hitting rookie. But now he's one of their worst players. No power. Terrible defense. Doesn't even know how to throw a ball (he shot puts it). Has 2 swings: chopping down for a grounder or alligator arming for a popup. They're riding it out with him and trying to accept him as a singles hitting leadoff guy. Maybe he'll figure his swing out in about 9 weeks like Polanco did. But that's too long to wait and too many losses to incur while a player figures out how to swing the bat when the same thing can be accomplished in AAA without hurting the MLB club. It would certainly get Bell's attention instead of him feeling like mgt will simply find a different role for him if he's a slap hitter instead of a power hitter. In the meantime it would give them a chance to see what Osuna could do at 1B with regular playing time. Or at least give more ABs to Freese. But that's not the sort of the thing the Pirates would do or they would have done it with Polanco when he couldn't figure out his swing for several months.
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OrlandoMerced
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
5255434B4552151960474D41494C0E434F4D200 wrote:
Bobster I think your remarks are ultimately correct: it’s hard to imagine more than a middling team with this approach unless they also spend the money needed to up grade key positions. I think we collectively think most positions are adequately filled, but I’m starting to realize that virtually every position should be evaluated for potential upgrade. The Pirates have no real “holes” but no real + players either (Marte maybe).
No one expects a roster full of + players, but a roster of average players will result in an average team. And that’s pretty much what we have: a bunch of average players resulting in an average team.
So maybe neal’s plan can create a foundation, but it must be supplemented if the goal is to win a WS. And wouldnt you know - that was the exact failure with the 2015 team; a very good foundation was not supplemented to upgrade as probably every other FO would have done. Then trying to maintain a balance between payroll and competing, we saw the magic (or luck) run out with the changes made to the 2016 team.
I do appreciate Orlando’s post very much: very reasonable and a realistic approach to allowing optimism to creep in. It’s easy to have tunnel vision and blowoff other prospectives, but Orlando’s post gives me a new prospective.
Maybe Neal is working “the plan” as well as it can be worked short of Nutting increasing the payroll range by 20-25% (from ~$100M Max to ~$125M Max in today MLB dollars).
Maybe Neal can hire a PR guy to convey the truth: “we have an internal pay range that is capped at $100M, we believe we can be a potential playoff team most years, and truly compete among the best in select years with this payroll by following the following plan faithfully.....”. Instead of picking fights with fans, instead of promising things they have no intention of ever doing, the fans can know the truth and I think most would complain about Nutting but look at the team and organization differently.
Orlando - keep posting from your prospective. Your post may be among the best ever posted as it has caused me to at least recognize and even consider your prospective.
I think the difference between the 2015 team, and this current team is the depth of the system. When NH was looking to make trades, he was unwilling to move prospects like Taillon, Glasnow, Meadows and Bell. They had all their top prospects pencilled in to future MLB roles. I think now, with the depth of the system, they should be willing to move top prospects for upgrades. Problem being of course that there is nothing to add to.
I'm not convinced that they will trade prospects, and it's not like losing a prospect trade will forever sink your franchise. Look at the D'Backs, the Shelby Miller trade was one of the worst trades ever and they are right back in contention. NH is too risk averse, they see every prospect as a potential 6 year starter and their player valuations don't appropriately see the value of free agent upgrades over in house options.
Bobster I think your remarks are ultimately correct: it’s hard to imagine more than a middling team with this approach unless they also spend the money needed to up grade key positions. I think we collectively think most positions are adequately filled, but I’m starting to realize that virtually every position should be evaluated for potential upgrade. The Pirates have no real “holes” but no real + players either (Marte maybe).
No one expects a roster full of + players, but a roster of average players will result in an average team. And that’s pretty much what we have: a bunch of average players resulting in an average team.
So maybe neal’s plan can create a foundation, but it must be supplemented if the goal is to win a WS. And wouldnt you know - that was the exact failure with the 2015 team; a very good foundation was not supplemented to upgrade as probably every other FO would have done. Then trying to maintain a balance between payroll and competing, we saw the magic (or luck) run out with the changes made to the 2016 team.
I do appreciate Orlando’s post very much: very reasonable and a realistic approach to allowing optimism to creep in. It’s easy to have tunnel vision and blowoff other prospectives, but Orlando’s post gives me a new prospective.
Maybe Neal is working “the plan” as well as it can be worked short of Nutting increasing the payroll range by 20-25% (from ~$100M Max to ~$125M Max in today MLB dollars).
Maybe Neal can hire a PR guy to convey the truth: “we have an internal pay range that is capped at $100M, we believe we can be a potential playoff team most years, and truly compete among the best in select years with this payroll by following the following plan faithfully.....”. Instead of picking fights with fans, instead of promising things they have no intention of ever doing, the fans can know the truth and I think most would complain about Nutting but look at the team and organization differently.
Orlando - keep posting from your prospective. Your post may be among the best ever posted as it has caused me to at least recognize and even consider your prospective.
I think the difference between the 2015 team, and this current team is the depth of the system. When NH was looking to make trades, he was unwilling to move prospects like Taillon, Glasnow, Meadows and Bell. They had all their top prospects pencilled in to future MLB roles. I think now, with the depth of the system, they should be willing to move top prospects for upgrades. Problem being of course that there is nothing to add to.
I'm not convinced that they will trade prospects, and it's not like losing a prospect trade will forever sink your franchise. Look at the D'Backs, the Shelby Miller trade was one of the worst trades ever and they are right back in contention. NH is too risk averse, they see every prospect as a potential 6 year starter and their player valuations don't appropriately see the value of free agent upgrades over in house options.
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
003D232E212B20022A3D2C2A2B4F0 wrote:
Bobster I think your remarks are ultimately correct: it’s hard to imagine more than a middling team with this approach unless they also spend the money needed to up grade key positions. I think we collectively think most positions are adequately filled, but I’m starting to realize that virtually every position should be evaluated for potential upgrade. The Pirates have no real “holes” but no real + players either (Marte maybe).
No one expects a roster full of + players, but a roster of average players will result in an average team. And that’s pretty much what we have: a bunch of average players resulting in an average team.
So maybe neal’s plan can create a foundation, but it must be supplemented if the goal is to win a WS. And wouldnt you know - that was the exact failure with the 2015 team; a very good foundation was not supplemented to upgrade as probably every other FO would have done. Then trying to maintain a balance between payroll and competing, we saw the magic (or luck) run out with the changes made to the 2016 team.
I do appreciate Orlando’s post very much: very reasonable and a realistic approach to allowing optimism to creep in. It’s easy to have tunnel vision and blowoff other prospectives, but Orlando’s post gives me a new prospective.
Maybe Neal is working “the plan” as well as it can be worked short of Nutting increasing the payroll range by 20-25% (from ~$100M Max to ~$125M Max in today MLB dollars).
Maybe Neal can hire a PR guy to convey the truth: “we have an internal pay range that is capped at $100M, we believe we can be a potential playoff team most years, and truly compete among the best in select years with this payroll by following the following plan faithfully.....”. Instead of picking fights with fans, instead of promising things they have no intention of ever doing, the fans can know the truth and I think most would complain about Nutting but look at the team and organization differently.
Orlando - keep posting from your prospective. Your post may be among the best ever posted as it has caused me to at least recognize and even consider your prospective.
I think the difference between the 2015 team, and this current team is the depth of the system. When NH was looking to make trades, he was unwilling to move prospects like Taillon, Glasnow, Meadows and Bell. They had all their top prospects pencilled in to future MLB roles. I think now, with the depth of the system, they should be willing to move top prospects for upgrades. Problem being of course that there is nothing to add to.
I'm not convinced that they will trade prospects, and it's not like losing a prospect trade will forever sink your franchise. Look at the D'Backs, the Shelby Miller trade was one of the worst trades ever and they are right back in contention. [highlight]NH is too risk averse, they see every prospect as a potential 6 year starter and their player valuations don't appropriately see the value of free agent upgrades over in house options.[/highlight]
pretty much nails it as to why NH will never bring a consistent winner (even though he did have 3 winning seasons).
Bobster I think your remarks are ultimately correct: it’s hard to imagine more than a middling team with this approach unless they also spend the money needed to up grade key positions. I think we collectively think most positions are adequately filled, but I’m starting to realize that virtually every position should be evaluated for potential upgrade. The Pirates have no real “holes” but no real + players either (Marte maybe).
No one expects a roster full of + players, but a roster of average players will result in an average team. And that’s pretty much what we have: a bunch of average players resulting in an average team.
So maybe neal’s plan can create a foundation, but it must be supplemented if the goal is to win a WS. And wouldnt you know - that was the exact failure with the 2015 team; a very good foundation was not supplemented to upgrade as probably every other FO would have done. Then trying to maintain a balance between payroll and competing, we saw the magic (or luck) run out with the changes made to the 2016 team.
I do appreciate Orlando’s post very much: very reasonable and a realistic approach to allowing optimism to creep in. It’s easy to have tunnel vision and blowoff other prospectives, but Orlando’s post gives me a new prospective.
Maybe Neal is working “the plan” as well as it can be worked short of Nutting increasing the payroll range by 20-25% (from ~$100M Max to ~$125M Max in today MLB dollars).
Maybe Neal can hire a PR guy to convey the truth: “we have an internal pay range that is capped at $100M, we believe we can be a potential playoff team most years, and truly compete among the best in select years with this payroll by following the following plan faithfully.....”. Instead of picking fights with fans, instead of promising things they have no intention of ever doing, the fans can know the truth and I think most would complain about Nutting but look at the team and organization differently.
Orlando - keep posting from your prospective. Your post may be among the best ever posted as it has caused me to at least recognize and even consider your prospective.
I think the difference between the 2015 team, and this current team is the depth of the system. When NH was looking to make trades, he was unwilling to move prospects like Taillon, Glasnow, Meadows and Bell. They had all their top prospects pencilled in to future MLB roles. I think now, with the depth of the system, they should be willing to move top prospects for upgrades. Problem being of course that there is nothing to add to.
I'm not convinced that they will trade prospects, and it's not like losing a prospect trade will forever sink your franchise. Look at the D'Backs, the Shelby Miller trade was one of the worst trades ever and they are right back in contention. [highlight]NH is too risk averse, they see every prospect as a potential 6 year starter and their player valuations don't appropriately see the value of free agent upgrades over in house options.[/highlight]
pretty much nails it as to why NH will never bring a consistent winner (even though he did have 3 winning seasons).
Maybe I Am Too Optimistic
On the optimistic end --- The most encouraging move that I have seen the Pirates make this year and actually in most recent years is promoting Meadows to the majors. While his performance has dropped off quite a bit from the unrealistic early results, he is still hitting close to .300 and he is the only outfielder who has regularly been asked to shift from LF to CF to RF depending on which day it is in the infamous 4 day rotation. The Pirates promoted him even though he clearly will use up some of his super 2 eligibility.
On the other end - I don't understand why the Pirates will not send a position player who is struggling to the minors, both Bell and Polanco. I know the Bucs do not have any great 1st base options, but Bell isn't hitting (no power) and his fielding is rapidly dropping off to Alvarez levels. Send him to AAA or AA to see if he can regain some power. Although his hitting did pick up for a week plus, I would do the same with Polanco and give Luplow some playing time. I know the team needs some bench bats, but what is the value of having Luplow sit in the majors after he had recently found his swing in AAA.
I continue to support the Pirates trading their tradable position assets to try and improve the long term perspective for the team. This team, as currently constituted, does not appear to have enough assets to compete.
And, although I know that it will not happen, the Bucs need to remove Hurdle (atrocious approach to Tallion on Saturday) and to bring in a new manager.
On the other end - I don't understand why the Pirates will not send a position player who is struggling to the minors, both Bell and Polanco. I know the Bucs do not have any great 1st base options, but Bell isn't hitting (no power) and his fielding is rapidly dropping off to Alvarez levels. Send him to AAA or AA to see if he can regain some power. Although his hitting did pick up for a week plus, I would do the same with Polanco and give Luplow some playing time. I know the team needs some bench bats, but what is the value of having Luplow sit in the majors after he had recently found his swing in AAA.
I continue to support the Pirates trading their tradable position assets to try and improve the long term perspective for the team. This team, as currently constituted, does not appear to have enough assets to compete.
And, although I know that it will not happen, the Bucs need to remove Hurdle (atrocious approach to Tallion on Saturday) and to bring in a new manager.