OnlyBucs

200D00111607105053620 wrote: Happ back here wasn't realistic at all.
Yeah, this isn't a Pirate problem it's a Baseball problem. 






If we had an owner who doesn't want a payroll to be in the bottom five of all of baseball, we would stand a better chance getting someone of note instead of a slap hitting SS from Cleveland; a reclamation project from Cleveland and a reclamation project from SD.  Minnesota is trying to add.  Cincy has been connected to some pretty good players like Relamuto.  Whether or not they land him, its out there they are trying and those two markets are similar to Pittsburgh.


The finances of MLB make it impossible for the Pirates to compete for established, productive free agents or even to trade for them. However, it shouldn't prevent them from acquiring good enough players who would make the payroll close to the MLB average. That's the problem. They maintain a very low payroll always in the range of 25th to 30th in MLB. They aren't even remotely close to the MLB average and they seem to be shedding salary. And as we learned after the previous "We'll spend when the time is right" or "We'll spend when the fans support us" comments, there will never be a right time. Not even after a 98 win season with record setting attendance. I wonder if at the winter meetings, NH has to stay outside in the dumpster.
This is it. Its not like we haven't seen this before. They are shedding payroll once again. Nova surely could be replaced with a decent, comparable, and younger player. There is no reason the money shouldn't be available.

103D30212637206063520 wrote: Happ back here wasn't realistic at all.
Yeah, this isn't a Pirate problem it's a Baseball problem. 






If we had an owner who doesn't want a payroll to be in the bottom five of all of baseball, we would stand a better chance getting someone of note instead of a slap hitting SS from Cleveland; a reclamation project from Cleveland and a reclamation project from SD.  Minnesota is trying to add.  Cincy has been connected to some pretty good players like Relamuto.  Whether or not they land him, its out there they are trying and those two markets are similar to Pittsburgh.


The finances of MLB make it impossible for the Pirates to compete for established, productive free agents or even to trade for them. However, it shouldn't prevent them from acquiring good enough players who would make the payroll close to the MLB average. That's the problem. They maintain a very low payroll always in the range of 25th to 30th in MLB. They aren't even remotely close to the MLB average and they seem to be shedding salary. And as we learned after the previous "We'll spend when the time is right" or "We'll spend when the fans support us" comments, there will never be a right time. Not even after a 98 win season with record setting attendance. I wonder if at the winter meetings, NH has to stay outside in the dumpster.
I agree we could get more, but in the long term that hardly matters.  It doesn't matter if the owner is Nutting or Mark Cuban or that guy from the Monopoly box.  Any success for us or KC or the Indians is ephemeral. 



And IMO that is a WAY more important reason for the State of Things than one specific owner. It's also much more hopeless than just one owner, and gets much less attention.

577A77666170672724150 wrote: Happ back here wasn't realistic at all.
Yeah, this isn't a Pirate problem it's a Baseball problem. 






If we had an owner who doesn't want a payroll to be in the bottom five of all of baseball, we would stand a better chance getting someone of note instead of a slap hitting SS from Cleveland; a reclamation project from Cleveland and a reclamation project from SD.  Minnesota is trying to add.  Cincy has been connected to some pretty good players like Relamuto.  Whether or not they land him, its out there they are trying and those two markets are similar to Pittsburgh.


The finances of MLB make it impossible for the Pirates to compete for established, productive free agents or even to trade for them. However, it shouldn't prevent them from acquiring good enough players who would make the payroll close to the MLB average. That's the problem. They maintain a very low payroll always in the range of 25th to 30th in MLB. They aren't even remotely close to the MLB average and they seem to be shedding salary. And as we learned after the previous "We'll spend when the time is right" or "We'll spend when the fans support us" comments, there will never be a right time. Not even after a 98 win season with record setting attendance. I wonder if at the winter meetings, NH has to stay outside in the dumpster.


I agree with the premise, but we have seen like situations improve by spending money. I'm not saying to Boston or LA, but there needs to be more of an effort here. They put out an average product with a bunch of relaxation projects, then bitch about attendance and threaten to reduce payroll. You get what you pay for.

Fellow Bucco Fans, you nailed it! The lack of effort and not willing to improve the quality of the product on the field. Heck, we are never going to be able to win a division at this rate, let alone get out of 4th place... :-[

While I acknowledge that MLB tilts the playing field in the direction of a few deep-pocketed teams when it comes to competitive balance, it is a disservice to let Bob Nutting off the hook for running a franchise that is consistently near the median with regard to revenue, but in the bottom 20% in terms of payroll.



If Bob Nutting were spending money on payroll commensurate with revenue, the Pirates would be able to add about $30M more in payroll for the 2019 season. So, the fact that J.A. Happ (or your personal favorite impact FA) doesn't sign with the Pirates has more to do with Pirate ownership than it does with the admitted competitive imbalance of MLB.

0B2F3B33365A0 wrote: While I acknowledge that MLB tilts the playing field in the direction of a few deep-pocketed teams when it comes to competitive balance, it is a disservice to let Bob Nutting off the hook for running a franchise that is consistently near the median with regard to revenue, but in the bottom 20% in terms of payroll.



If Bob Nutting were spending money on payroll commensurate with revenue, the Pirates would be able to add about $30M more in payroll for the 2019 season. So, the fact that J.A. Happ (or your personal favorite impact FA) doesn't sign with the Pirates has more to do with Pirate ownership than it does with the admitted competitive imbalance of MLB. 




other owners seem to be willing to let profits fluctuate if they think increasing expenses can result in a winning season.  Nutting seems to operate on "we must make x amount every year no matter what." 



There is some speculation on Bucs Dugout that Pirates payroll for 2019 may be below 80 million (maybe even 75 million if Cervelli is dealt).



started by a David Todd tweet:





1/2 If the #Pirates open the season w a payroll of $75 million, as a source told me was their goal, it’s a complete embarrassment & an incredible insult to the fanbase. Yes, it is possible to win w a low payroll, but zero safety net. Players like Nova were a safety net of sorts.



107

9:15 AM - Dec 12, 2018

5672666E6B070 wrote: While I acknowledge that MLB tilts the playing field in the direction of a few deep-pocketed teams when it comes to competitive balance, it is a disservice to let Bob Nutting off the hook for running a franchise that is consistently near the median with regard to revenue, but in the bottom 20% in terms of payroll.



If Bob Nutting were spending money on payroll commensurate with revenue, the Pirates would be able to add about $30M more in payroll for the 2019 season. So, the fact that J.A. Happ (or your personal favorite impact FA) doesn't sign with the Pirates has more to do with Pirate ownership than it does with the admitted competitive imbalance of MLB. 


This is true.

72404C4C586A49404D484740210 wrote: Happ back here wasn't realistic at all.
Yeah, this isn't a Pirate problem it's a Baseball problem. 






If we had an owner who doesn't want a payroll to be in the bottom five of all of baseball, we would stand a better chance getting someone of note instead of a slap hitting SS from Cleveland; a reclamation project from Cleveland and a reclamation project from SD.  Minnesota is trying to add.  Cincy has been connected to some pretty good players like Relamuto.  Whether or not they land him, its out there they are trying and those two markets are similar to Pittsburgh.


The finances of MLB make it impossible for the Pirates to compete for established, productive free agents or even to trade for them. However, it shouldn't prevent them from acquiring good enough players who would make the payroll close to the MLB average. That's the problem. They maintain a very low payroll always in the range of 25th to 30th in MLB. They aren't even remotely close to the MLB average and they seem to be shedding salary. And as we learned after the previous "We'll spend when the time is right" or "We'll spend when the fans support us" comments, there will never be a right time. Not even after a 98 win season with record setting attendance. I wonder if at the winter meetings, NH has to stay outside in the dumpster.
I agree we could get more, but in the long term that hardly matters.  It doesn't matter if the owner is Nutting or Mark Cuban or that guy from the Monopoly box.  Any success for us or KC or the Indians is ephemeral. 



And IMO that is a WAY more important reason for the State of Things than one specific owner.  It's also much more hopeless than just one owner, and gets much less attention.
Then why not just get it over with and contract 4-8 teams? You're saying there is no hope. You are correct there is no hope if you continue to use the same business model that has failed consistently.

64657E6F79393E0A0 wrote: Happ back here wasn't realistic at all.
Yeah, this isn't a Pirate problem it's a Baseball problem. 






If we had an owner who doesn't want a payroll to be in the bottom five of all of baseball, we would stand a better chance getting someone of note instead of a slap hitting SS from Cleveland; a reclamation project from Cleveland and a reclamation project from SD.  Minnesota is trying to add.  Cincy has been connected to some pretty good players like Relamuto.  Whether or not they land him, its out there they are trying and those two markets are similar to Pittsburgh.


The finances of MLB make it impossible for the Pirates to compete for established, productive free agents or even to trade for them. However, it shouldn't prevent them from acquiring good enough players who would make the payroll close to the MLB average. That's the problem. They maintain a very low payroll always in the range of 25th to 30th in MLB. They aren't even remotely close to the MLB average and they seem to be shedding salary. And as we learned after the previous "We'll spend when the time is right" or "We'll spend when the fans support us" comments, there will never be a right time. Not even after a 98 win season with record setting attendance. I wonder if at the winter meetings, NH has to stay outside in the dumpster.
I agree we could get more, but in the long term that hardly matters.  It doesn't matter if the owner is Nutting or Mark Cuban or that guy from the Monopoly box.  Any success for us or KC or the Indians is ephemeral. 



And IMO that is a WAY more important reason for the State of Things than one specific owner.  It's also much more hopeless than just one owner, and gets much less attention.
Then why not just get it over with and contract 4-8 teams? You're saying there is no hope. You are correct there is no hope if you continue to use the same business model that has failed consistently.


Yeah, they need some sort of deal more like the other leagues that splits the TV contracts. This shouldn't be to let the current management off the hook on how they operate "small picture" things, but this is always the main issues. It's actually another mark against them (or their predecessors) as the the 80-90% of teams the current situation hurts didn't stand up when they have the chance.



I don't know that MLB as a whole feels like it's a failed business model.

7C4E42425664474E4346494E2F0 wrote:



I don't know that MLB as a whole feels like it's a failed business model.




The business model is quite successful. Even for small market teams. It's the competitive model that's broken.