If BC believes that the new people in the organization will be more effective in coaching and developing players, it makes sense to hold off on trading any assets (Marte for instance) until the new staff has had a chance to evaluate and then attempt to maximize their value. In the same respect, perceived areas of need may change based on developmental successes or failures with this new management group.
As a baseball fan I understand the desire to see changes made to what has been a chronically disappointing team, but I'd rather see the Pirates make the best deals with the most leverage they can generate, not some hot-take reactionary moves just to do something.
Ben Cherington
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
Ben Cherington
416571797C100 wrote: If BC believes that the new people in the organization will be more effective in coaching and developing players, it makes sense to hold off on trading any assets (Marte for instance) until the new staff has had a chance to evaluate and then attempt to maximize their value. In the same respect, perceived areas of need may change based on developmental successes or failures with this new management group.
As a baseball fan I understand the desire to see changes made to what has been a chronically disappointing team, but I'd rather see the Pirates make the best deals with the most leverage they can generate, not some hot-take reactionary moves just to do something.
I agree. We've heard so much about this organization failing to get the most out of Cole, not realizing what they had in Meadows and Glasnow, being too quick to throw in Baz while trading for Archer who they badly overrated. They also overrated Polanco from the start, only recalled Reynolds from AAA when there was a 2nd OF injury after already recalling first choice Martin, and either overrated Keller or don't know how to develop him. Heads rolled and a new mgt team is in place. IMHO, the first order of business would be to see if players can be improved to adequately fill needs and to see what they've got in the pipeline without relying on scouting reports that would appear to have been suspect in the past. I think it would be irresponsible of BC to make personnel decisions before anyone has even suited up based either on info from organizational sources that have previously provided bad info or from new sources who haven't yet seen anyone play. Based on the many failures of the organization, BC can't afford to trust anyone's assessments at this early stage.
As fans, it stinks seeing the team taking these baby steps (if any at all) when so much needs to be done. But they aren't winning anything this year anyway so I'd rather see BC get a firm handle on the players at each level, what they can do and how good they can expect to get, before making decisions on who to give up and who to acquire.
As a baseball fan I understand the desire to see changes made to what has been a chronically disappointing team, but I'd rather see the Pirates make the best deals with the most leverage they can generate, not some hot-take reactionary moves just to do something.
I agree. We've heard so much about this organization failing to get the most out of Cole, not realizing what they had in Meadows and Glasnow, being too quick to throw in Baz while trading for Archer who they badly overrated. They also overrated Polanco from the start, only recalled Reynolds from AAA when there was a 2nd OF injury after already recalling first choice Martin, and either overrated Keller or don't know how to develop him. Heads rolled and a new mgt team is in place. IMHO, the first order of business would be to see if players can be improved to adequately fill needs and to see what they've got in the pipeline without relying on scouting reports that would appear to have been suspect in the past. I think it would be irresponsible of BC to make personnel decisions before anyone has even suited up based either on info from organizational sources that have previously provided bad info or from new sources who haven't yet seen anyone play. Based on the many failures of the organization, BC can't afford to trust anyone's assessments at this early stage.
As fans, it stinks seeing the team taking these baby steps (if any at all) when so much needs to be done. But they aren't winning anything this year anyway so I'd rather see BC get a firm handle on the players at each level, what they can do and how good they can expect to get, before making decisions on who to give up and who to acquire.
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DemDog
Ben Cherington
0D202D3C3B2A3D7D7E4F0 wrote: If BC believes that the new people in the organization will be more effective in coaching and developing players, it makes sense to hold off on trading any assets (Marte for instance) until the new staff has had a chance to evaluate and then attempt to maximize their value. In the same respect, perceived areas of need may change based on developmental successes or failures with this new management group.
As a baseball fan I understand the desire to see changes made to what has been a chronically disappointing team, but I'd rather see the Pirates make the best deals with the most leverage they can generate, not some hot-take reactionary moves just to do something.
I agree. We've heard so much about this organization failing to get the most out of Cole, not realizing what they had in Meadows and Glasnow, being too quick to throw in Baz while trading for Archer who they badly overrated. They also overrated Polanco from the start, only recalled Reynolds from AAA when there was a 2nd OF injury after already recalling first choice Martin, and either overrated Keller or don't know how to develop him. Heads rolled and a new mgt team is in place. IMHO, the first order of business would be to see if players can be improved to adequately fill needs and to see what they've got in the pipeline without relying on scouting reports that would appear to have been suspect in the past. I think it would be irresponsible of BC to make personnel decisions before anyone has even suited up based either on info from organizational sources that have previously provided bad info or from new sources who haven't yet seen anyone play. Based on the many failures of the organization, BC can't afford to trust anyone's assessments at this early stage.
As fans, it stinks seeing the team taking these baby steps (if any at all) when so much needs to be done. But they aren't winning anything this year anyway so I'd rather see BC get a firm handle on the players at each level, what they can do and how good they can expect to get, before making decisions on who to give up and who to acquire.
I share you thoughts Bobster. But as a published author you are able to communicate those thoughts much better than me.
As a baseball fan I understand the desire to see changes made to what has been a chronically disappointing team, but I'd rather see the Pirates make the best deals with the most leverage they can generate, not some hot-take reactionary moves just to do something.
I agree. We've heard so much about this organization failing to get the most out of Cole, not realizing what they had in Meadows and Glasnow, being too quick to throw in Baz while trading for Archer who they badly overrated. They also overrated Polanco from the start, only recalled Reynolds from AAA when there was a 2nd OF injury after already recalling first choice Martin, and either overrated Keller or don't know how to develop him. Heads rolled and a new mgt team is in place. IMHO, the first order of business would be to see if players can be improved to adequately fill needs and to see what they've got in the pipeline without relying on scouting reports that would appear to have been suspect in the past. I think it would be irresponsible of BC to make personnel decisions before anyone has even suited up based either on info from organizational sources that have previously provided bad info or from new sources who haven't yet seen anyone play. Based on the many failures of the organization, BC can't afford to trust anyone's assessments at this early stage.
As fans, it stinks seeing the team taking these baby steps (if any at all) when so much needs to be done. But they aren't winning anything this year anyway so I'd rather see BC get a firm handle on the players at each level, what they can do and how good they can expect to get, before making decisions on who to give up and who to acquire.
I share you thoughts Bobster. But as a published author you are able to communicate those thoughts much better than me.
Ben Cherington
683E283C332939323F281A3D373B333674395A0 wrote: I have high hopes for Cherington. I will give him the benefit of the doubt on any acquisition he makes to improve the team. I will come on here and heap praise if he makes some moves to improve the team. But, so far, he has done nothing to commend him for.
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If he makes a trade, including Marte, that brings back a young, unproven player who performs like Reynolds did last year, would the trading of Marte be acceptable to you?
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No, I would pass. Even though you know that I like Reynolds a lot, Marte is a major league ball player and I would want a major league ball player in return rather than a prospect who may or may not work out.
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If he makes a trade, including Marte, that brings back a young, unproven player who performs like Reynolds did last year, would the trading of Marte be acceptable to you?
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No, I would pass. Even though you know that I like Reynolds a lot, Marte is a major league ball player and I would want a major league ball player in return rather than a prospect who may or may not work out.
Ben Cherington
604D40515647501013220 wrote: If BC believes that the new people in the organization will be more effective in coaching and developing players, it makes sense to hold off on trading any assets (Marte for instance) until the new staff has had a chance to evaluate and then attempt to maximize their value. In the same respect, perceived areas of need may change based on developmental successes or failures with this new management group.
As a baseball fan I understand the desire to see changes made to what has been a chronically disappointing team, but I'd rather see the Pirates make the best deals with the most leverage they can generate, not some hot-take reactionary moves just to do something.
I agree. We've heard so much about this organization failing to get the most out of Cole, not realizing what they had in Meadows and Glasnow, being too quick to throw in Baz while trading for Archer who they badly overrated. They also overrated Polanco from the start, only recalled Reynolds from AAA when there was a 2nd OF injury after already recalling first choice Martin, and either overrated Keller or don't know how to develop him. Heads rolled and a new mgt team is in place. IMHO, the first order of business would be to see if players can be improved to adequately fill needs and to see what they've got in the pipeline without relying on scouting reports that would appear to have been suspect in the past. I think it would be irresponsible of BC to make personnel decisions before anyone has even suited up based either on info from organizational sources that have previously provided bad info or from new sources who haven't yet seen anyone play. Based on the many failures of the organization, BC can't afford to trust anyone's assessments at this early stage.
As fans, it stinks seeing the team taking these baby steps (if any at all) when so much needs to be done. But they aren't winning anything this year anyway so I'd rather see BC get a firm handle on the players at each level, what they can do and how good they can expect to get, before making decisions on who to give up and who to acquire.
Good post. And I'd ask the reverse question to those who are complaining...what should we be doing?
Signing a FA catcher, two middling SPers and a couple of relief pitcher doesn't make this a playoff team. Are we spending just to say that we spent something. I mean, there is angst among some that Liriano signed somewhere else. For real????
I think they have done exactly what they should do. They have hired people that seem like very good baseball people at key positions in the organization.
What are they supposed to do?
As a baseball fan I understand the desire to see changes made to what has been a chronically disappointing team, but I'd rather see the Pirates make the best deals with the most leverage they can generate, not some hot-take reactionary moves just to do something.
I agree. We've heard so much about this organization failing to get the most out of Cole, not realizing what they had in Meadows and Glasnow, being too quick to throw in Baz while trading for Archer who they badly overrated. They also overrated Polanco from the start, only recalled Reynolds from AAA when there was a 2nd OF injury after already recalling first choice Martin, and either overrated Keller or don't know how to develop him. Heads rolled and a new mgt team is in place. IMHO, the first order of business would be to see if players can be improved to adequately fill needs and to see what they've got in the pipeline without relying on scouting reports that would appear to have been suspect in the past. I think it would be irresponsible of BC to make personnel decisions before anyone has even suited up based either on info from organizational sources that have previously provided bad info or from new sources who haven't yet seen anyone play. Based on the many failures of the organization, BC can't afford to trust anyone's assessments at this early stage.
As fans, it stinks seeing the team taking these baby steps (if any at all) when so much needs to be done. But they aren't winning anything this year anyway so I'd rather see BC get a firm handle on the players at each level, what they can do and how good they can expect to get, before making decisions on who to give up and who to acquire.
Good post. And I'd ask the reverse question to those who are complaining...what should we be doing?
Signing a FA catcher, two middling SPers and a couple of relief pitcher doesn't make this a playoff team. Are we spending just to say that we spent something. I mean, there is angst among some that Liriano signed somewhere else. For real????
I think they have done exactly what they should do. They have hired people that seem like very good baseball people at key positions in the organization.
What are they supposed to do?
Ben Cherington
I get the frustration, but we dont know what FA they have made offers to for the most part. Would you want to come to Pittsburgh on a potential rebuild?
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Ben Cherington
3C272A2B222E214F0 wrote: I have high hopes for Cherington. I will give him the benefit of the doubt on any acquisition he makes to improve the team. I will come on here and heap praise if he makes some moves to improve the team. But, so far, he has done nothing to commend him for.
----
If he makes a trade, including Marte, that brings back a young, unproven player who performs like Reynolds did last year, would the trading of Marte be acceptable to you?
----
No, I would pass. Even though you know that I like Reynolds a lot, Marte is a major league ball player and I would want a major league ball player in return rather than a prospect who may or may not work out.
Fair enough. I hope you get your wish that a major league player is coming back in return for him when he's traded sometime this year.
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If he makes a trade, including Marte, that brings back a young, unproven player who performs like Reynolds did last year, would the trading of Marte be acceptable to you?
----
No, I would pass. Even though you know that I like Reynolds a lot, Marte is a major league ball player and I would want a major league ball player in return rather than a prospect who may or may not work out.
Fair enough. I hope you get your wish that a major league player is coming back in return for him when he's traded sometime this year.
Ben Cherington
In another thread I posted many of my concerns regarding the failure to acquire some depth for the starting rotation. First, I have already accepted what next year is likely to be --- a year of better evaluating what you have and what you need with what are undoubtedly going to be some very lopsided losses.
A key issue with me is ensuring that there are enough bodies to finish what will undoubtedly be a long season (it will feel like it is more than 162 games) and not thrusting young pitchers into roles that they are not ready to perform. As such, bringing someone up out of AA for a spot start is an oft used approach, but asking that same player (who really may have an upside, but who is not ready for prime time) to suddenly step into the rotation for 6 weeks or so because two of your regular starters are out is not good practice. With me, it is not a question of how much money is spent this year on the major league team, but recognizing that additional stop gap players, particularly pitching, will be needed just to make it through the season and to not burn through the pitchers who could be more valuable to you in the future.
I also believe that BC should be in a position to trade Marte at this point, provided other teams are offering a good return. If they aren't (I have not been excited by some of the rumored Met trades), then yes, hang onto him now and hope that interest in him grows as the season unfolds and that he performs well and does not get hurt (particularly near the deadline). That said, even casual fans know that the Pirates have such broad overall needs that could be the focal point of any Marte trade; starting pitching, relief pitching, and catching for starters, and that any real talent that was acquired to help address these needs for the future should be welcomed.
I am glad that the Pirates made a GM change and many other organizational changes. I did, however, expect that they would do more than bring in Maile, a platoon outfielder with some major league experience, and a bevy of non-roster invites who don't appear to have much chance of sticking past mid-March. At present, I would likely even welcome a Wade LeBlanc signing (A move I noted several months ago as one that clearly would signal the sorry state of the franchise).
I am in the camp of having to hope that there is some likelihood of future success, because at present, it is quite dark in Pirate land.
A key issue with me is ensuring that there are enough bodies to finish what will undoubtedly be a long season (it will feel like it is more than 162 games) and not thrusting young pitchers into roles that they are not ready to perform. As such, bringing someone up out of AA for a spot start is an oft used approach, but asking that same player (who really may have an upside, but who is not ready for prime time) to suddenly step into the rotation for 6 weeks or so because two of your regular starters are out is not good practice. With me, it is not a question of how much money is spent this year on the major league team, but recognizing that additional stop gap players, particularly pitching, will be needed just to make it through the season and to not burn through the pitchers who could be more valuable to you in the future.
I also believe that BC should be in a position to trade Marte at this point, provided other teams are offering a good return. If they aren't (I have not been excited by some of the rumored Met trades), then yes, hang onto him now and hope that interest in him grows as the season unfolds and that he performs well and does not get hurt (particularly near the deadline). That said, even casual fans know that the Pirates have such broad overall needs that could be the focal point of any Marte trade; starting pitching, relief pitching, and catching for starters, and that any real talent that was acquired to help address these needs for the future should be welcomed.
I am glad that the Pirates made a GM change and many other organizational changes. I did, however, expect that they would do more than bring in Maile, a platoon outfielder with some major league experience, and a bevy of non-roster invites who don't appear to have much chance of sticking past mid-March. At present, I would likely even welcome a Wade LeBlanc signing (A move I noted several months ago as one that clearly would signal the sorry state of the franchise).
I am in the camp of having to hope that there is some likelihood of future success, because at present, it is quite dark in Pirate land.
Ben Cherington
The reports I see are suggesting teams (Padres and Mets) are balking at what BC is asking in return for Marte. But that's negotiation. If the Pirates are ready to keep Marte and another team really wants him, the offers will go up.
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WildwoodDave
- Posts: 568
- Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:19 am
Ben Cherington
544F42434A4649270 wrote: I have high hopes for Cherington. I will give him the benefit of the doubt on any acquisition he makes to improve the team. I will come on here and heap praise if he makes some moves to improve the team. But, so far, he has done nothing to commend him for.