The Bucs record is a reflection of the team's overall lack of talent.
No hitting when a run would make a major difference; minimal power in a sport that now values power; poor base running (including the manager deciding when a player should try to steal a base; average to substandard defense; and often retched pitching, both starting and relieving.
At present, the Bucs excel at only one factor, losing.
I don't think that the current cast of players is trying to lose, I just don't think that they have the horses to regularly compete, particularly when even your better players are not hitting with any consistency.
Tanking
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Tanking
55667A7B7870467B607C6760717D7A140 wrote: "Tanking" doesn't mean that the players are intentionally trying to lose anymore. It means that management is going to strip the team of its good players, not replace them with either veterans or prospects that seem ready for the majors, and lose many games for the purpose of finishing last or nearly so that they can get very high draft picks.
I assumed by spring training that they are tanking, with the catching and outfield depth the biggest signs that they'll be happy to lose 110. I heard Cherrington talking yesterday about needing forty games to evaluate. That may be true, but I think what he's evaluating is whether they're going to play .350 ball or .300.
Bobby Cox said it takes 60 games to evaluate a team to see what it needs. BC says he needs 40 games. Since these two guys are in the profession, and have had success, I'd be inclined to believe what they say.
None of us would be surprised to know that BC arrived at decisions on many of these players fairly early on but, with the closing down of Spring Training for several months, and then the condensing of the season, making changes became that much more difficult. Changes will come, just a little later than he, or us, would like.
I assumed by spring training that they are tanking, with the catching and outfield depth the biggest signs that they'll be happy to lose 110. I heard Cherrington talking yesterday about needing forty games to evaluate. That may be true, but I think what he's evaluating is whether they're going to play .350 ball or .300.
Bobby Cox said it takes 60 games to evaluate a team to see what it needs. BC says he needs 40 games. Since these two guys are in the profession, and have had success, I'd be inclined to believe what they say.
None of us would be surprised to know that BC arrived at decisions on many of these players fairly early on but, with the closing down of Spring Training for several months, and then the condensing of the season, making changes became that much more difficult. Changes will come, just a little later than he, or us, would like.
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maher.timothy20@gm
Tanking
Tanking for a draft pick seems like an incredibly stupid approach.
Draft picks, even No. 1 draft picks, are a coin flip. What's worse, they're a coin flip where you don't know the result for four or five years.
I don't know what the hell they're doing. I'd say they're "rebuilding" but if that were the case they'd have a boatload of talent in the minors ready to take over in the next year or two.
Draft picks, even No. 1 draft picks, are a coin flip. What's worse, they're a coin flip where you don't know the result for four or five years.
I don't know what the hell they're doing. I'd say they're "rebuilding" but if that were the case they'd have a boatload of talent in the minors ready to take over in the next year or two.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Tanking
I wish the Pirates WERE tanking.
BOB would be out of baseball before the end of this month.
BOB would be out of baseball before the end of this month.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Tanking
4E636E7F78697E3E3D0C0 wrote: I can't believe anyone could look at the personnel on this roster and conclude the constant losing is due to tanking. Winning with these guys would be a miracle. There are only a handful who are legit major leaguers and most of them are flawed.
Frazier, Newman and Reynolds are legit although off to poor starts.
Bell can't play defense.
Dyson can't hit.
Stallings is backup material.
Polanco can't do anything well.
Moran and Gonzalez are better suited as backups.
Osuna, Murphy and Riddle have one foot on the Altoona bus.
All starting pitchers are no better than a 4 or 5.
Stratton and Rodriguez have had modest MLB success. The rest of the BP ranges from guys getting a chance to show they can handle MLB to those who have no business being there.
A case could be made that team mgt wanted to tank by not assembling a major league caliber roster. I don't think that was the reasoning behind it. But if they tanked, it was because of the lack of talent assembled. Not because that lack of talent wasn't beating the other teams.
Mostly agree, but I like Musgrove, Williams, and Kuhl and maybe some of the others. I hoped the coaching staff could help develop these players but so far I'm disappointed in the manager especially. He doesn't seem to have a plan and that is not good for a team like this. I'm willing to suffer through this season but we need to start seeing progress sooner rather than later.
Frazier, Newman and Reynolds are legit although off to poor starts.
Bell can't play defense.
Dyson can't hit.
Stallings is backup material.
Polanco can't do anything well.
Moran and Gonzalez are better suited as backups.
Osuna, Murphy and Riddle have one foot on the Altoona bus.
All starting pitchers are no better than a 4 or 5.
Stratton and Rodriguez have had modest MLB success. The rest of the BP ranges from guys getting a chance to show they can handle MLB to those who have no business being there.
A case could be made that team mgt wanted to tank by not assembling a major league caliber roster. I don't think that was the reasoning behind it. But if they tanked, it was because of the lack of talent assembled. Not because that lack of talent wasn't beating the other teams.
Mostly agree, but I like Musgrove, Williams, and Kuhl and maybe some of the others. I hoped the coaching staff could help develop these players but so far I'm disappointed in the manager especially. He doesn't seem to have a plan and that is not good for a team like this. I'm willing to suffer through this season but we need to start seeing progress sooner rather than later.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Tanking
I don't get what anyone sees in Mustgroove. I just don't.
Great guy. Maybe an adequate player.
We need more than clubhouse guys or whatever.
Great guy. Maybe an adequate player.
We need more than clubhouse guys or whatever.
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Bobster21
Tanking
7E4B5C5C576E5C5C57505C390 wrote: I don't get what anyone sees in Mustgroove. I just don't.
Great guy. Maybe an adequate player.
We need more than clubhouse guys or whatever.
I agree. He's very inconsistent. He can pitch a great game and then stink his next outing. Or he can look dominant for a few inning and then get rocked for an early exit. The Astros removed him from the rotation where he did poorly and put him in the BP where he did great. Of course the Pirates' mentality of thinking they are smarter than everyone else saw a failed starter and decided he could anchor their staff.
His stuff seems to play well for a few innings of each game or throughout a game every once in a while. In other words, you never know if you can count on him. He could probably be their best reliever but they are so starved for starting pitchers that even with his inconsistency they have no one better.
Great guy. Maybe an adequate player.
We need more than clubhouse guys or whatever.
I agree. He's very inconsistent. He can pitch a great game and then stink his next outing. Or he can look dominant for a few inning and then get rocked for an early exit. The Astros removed him from the rotation where he did poorly and put him in the BP where he did great. Of course the Pirates' mentality of thinking they are smarter than everyone else saw a failed starter and decided he could anchor their staff.
His stuff seems to play well for a few innings of each game or throughout a game every once in a while. In other words, you never know if you can count on him. He could probably be their best reliever but they are so starved for starting pitchers that even with his inconsistency they have no one better.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Tanking
Owns a cool glove.
Talks a great game.
Agree- up, down, and all around. If he was more consistent, it would help a great deal.
Talks a great game.
Agree- up, down, and all around. If he was more consistent, it would help a great deal.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Tanking
4B474E435408524F4B49524E5F141666414B260 wrote: Tanking for a draft pick seems like an incredibly stupid approach.
Draft picks, even No. 1 draft picks, are a coin flip. What's worse, they're a coin flip where you don't know the result for four or five years.
I don't know what the hell they're doing. I'd say they're "rebuilding" but if that were the case [highlight]they'd have a boatload of talent in the minors ready to take over in the next year or two.[/highlight]
That falls on Huntington, which has also helped cripple BC's ability to make changes. He has no one to replace the lack of talent in Pittsburgh. He has no one to trade to acquire young talent. He has the worst team, maybe the worst organization, in baseball, with no help coming from the owner. It's going to be three years before we see progress here, and that's if BC has a 1974 Steelers-like influx of talent.
Draft picks, even No. 1 draft picks, are a coin flip. What's worse, they're a coin flip where you don't know the result for four or five years.
I don't know what the hell they're doing. I'd say they're "rebuilding" but if that were the case [highlight]they'd have a boatload of talent in the minors ready to take over in the next year or two.[/highlight]
That falls on Huntington, which has also helped cripple BC's ability to make changes. He has no one to replace the lack of talent in Pittsburgh. He has no one to trade to acquire young talent. He has the worst team, maybe the worst organization, in baseball, with no help coming from the owner. It's going to be three years before we see progress here, and that's if BC has a 1974 Steelers-like influx of talent.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Tanking
7F525F4E49584F0F0C3D0 wrote: I don't get what anyone sees in Mustgroove. I just don't.
Great guy. Maybe an adequate player.
We need more than clubhouse guys or whatever.
I agree. He's very inconsistent. He can pitch a great game and then stink his next outing. Or he can look dominant for a few inning and then get rocked for an early exit. The Astros removed him from the rotation where he did poorly and put him in the BP where he did great. Of course the Pirates' mentality of thinking they are smarter than everyone else saw a failed starter and decided he could anchor their staff.
His stuff seems to play well for a few innings of each game or throughout a game every once in a while. In other words, you never know if you can count on him. He could probably be their best reliever but they are so starved for starting pitchers that even with his inconsistency they have no one better.
Does this remind you of anything, really good stuff, but inconsistent, Glasnow, Cole maybe. The thing I like about him is he's a competitor much like Cole you can't put a value on that. It was obvious Cole wanted out, because it became apparent the Pirates were going no where and he was wasting his time. This can become a problem with the entire team unless improvements start happening soon. I'm not sure the manager and front office understand this. They must get buy in from the players and unless they get things turned around soon it's going to metastasis. I don't get any feeling that they are interested in winning right now, that has to change or we're in for another record losing streak. Players are emotional and right now it looks like everyone is just going through the motions. That falls on the manager.
Great guy. Maybe an adequate player.
We need more than clubhouse guys or whatever.
I agree. He's very inconsistent. He can pitch a great game and then stink his next outing. Or he can look dominant for a few inning and then get rocked for an early exit. The Astros removed him from the rotation where he did poorly and put him in the BP where he did great. Of course the Pirates' mentality of thinking they are smarter than everyone else saw a failed starter and decided he could anchor their staff.
His stuff seems to play well for a few innings of each game or throughout a game every once in a while. In other words, you never know if you can count on him. He could probably be their best reliever but they are so starved for starting pitchers that even with his inconsistency they have no one better.
Does this remind you of anything, really good stuff, but inconsistent, Glasnow, Cole maybe. The thing I like about him is he's a competitor much like Cole you can't put a value on that. It was obvious Cole wanted out, because it became apparent the Pirates were going no where and he was wasting his time. This can become a problem with the entire team unless improvements start happening soon. I'm not sure the manager and front office understand this. They must get buy in from the players and unless they get things turned around soon it's going to metastasis. I don't get any feeling that they are interested in winning right now, that has to change or we're in for another record losing streak. Players are emotional and right now it looks like everyone is just going through the motions. That falls on the manager.