Official Game Thread - 8/14 - Bucs @ Mets

[Bobster]

I agree on 2 things in this thread.
Priester does not belong in MLB and should be sent down so he can develop into a better pitcher. The only problem I see with that is who is going to teach him. The Bucs' development system stinks.

When it comes to all the K's, well that is the Andy Haines method of hitting. The hitters either stand around taking too many pitches that are called strikes instead of swinging away. By the time they work the count and force the opposing pitcher to throw more pitches, the hitter finds that he has to swing and often swings away at a pitch out of the zone and ends up striking out. Fire Andy Haines at the end of the season at the least.

Exactly! That is their failed strategy. Cherington obviously endorses the "Moneyball" concept that prioritizes walks. That was apparent last year when they had Vogelbach lead off because he drew a lot of walks. It didn't matter that his power would produce mostly solo HRs unless the poor hitting guys at the bottom of the order reached base ahead of him. And it didn't matter that when he drew walks, he clogged the base paths with his slowness. This year they have batted Suwinski lead off, prioritizing his walks over his ability to produce multiple runs with
HRs.

And while trying to draw walks, they want to drive up pitch counts. Why? Is everyone's BP so weak that changing pitchers gives the Pirate hitters an advantage? Didn't Shelton say it's tough facing multiple pitchers? And hasn't Sheltington noticed that in the year of speeding up the game, umpires are routinely calling pitches strikes that are well out of the strike zone? And yet the Pirate batters stand there taking good pitches when even bad ones are being called strikes. How many times do we see them take a FB down the middle of the plate and being called out a few pitches later on a pitch 6 inches out of the strike zone? It happens every game. But the Pirates have never adjusted their strategy. This is such a poorly run team that it seems they shoot themselves in the foot before the national anthem even plays.

[Wildwoodcoach]

I would say that Suwinski Is the perfect example of this taking pitches and then
striking out.

[Bobster]

Priester ERA 9.10.

John Van Benschoten ERA 9.20.

That's scary.

[Wildwoodcoach]

Back to Priester, I think that Capp made an interesting point last night. He said there is
only about 4 mph difference between Priester's fast ball and his other pitches. That makes
it easier on opposing batters. Didn't the Pirate brass know this? Did they think that one day
Priester would suddenly start throwing 96 mph.?

[Wildwoodcoach]

Shelton and his stupid excuses- After Carrasco, the Pirates got one hit and
struck out 6 times the rest of the way. Shelton said "its tough to get into a bullpen game and
face 5 different pitchers." Guess that makes it ok!

[Bobster]

Back to Priester, I think that Capp made an interesting point last night. He said there is
only about 4 mph difference between Priester's fast ball and his other pitches. That makes
it easier on opposing batters. Didn't the Pirate brass know this? Did they think that one day
Priester would suddenly start throwing 96 mph.?

Yeah, when you see a pitcher this consistently bad, how do they expect something to significantly change? But they keep sending hm back out there as if the pitching that opponents have feasted on in every one of his 6 starts is suddenly going to get those opponents out. Hope is not a strategy. Nor is wishing. Priester needs to go back to AAA and become a different pitcher before he faces MLB hitters again. Whether it's more velocity, a new pitch or better control, he needs to improve his arsenal and return as a pitcher bearing no resemblance to what we've seen in every one of his starts so far.

[Javy]

Back to Priester, I think that Capp made an interesting point last night. He said there is
only about 4 mph difference between Priester's fast ball and his other pitches. That makes
it easier on opposing batters. Didn't the Pirate brass know this? Did they think that one day
Priester would suddenly start throwing 96 mph.?

Yeah, when you see a pitcher this consistently bad, how do they expect something to significantly change? But they keep sending hm back out there as if the pitching that opponents have feasted on in every one of his 6 starts is suddenly going to get those opponents out. Hope is not a strategy. Nor is wishing. Priester needs to go back to AAA and become a different pitcher before he faces MLB hitters again. Whether it's more velocity, a new pitch or better control, he needs to improve his arsenal and return as a pitcher bearing no resemblance to what we've seen in every one of his starts so far.

I'm in a little different spot regarding the Pirates development of pitchers.
I've not seen Priester pitch, but the numbers are pretty ugly. Is he a product of the organization's development strategy? Same with Roansey Contreras. You know, the same strategy that saw Charlie Morton morph into a star in Houston, or Joe Musgrove developing into a staff anchor in San Diego? Gerrit Cole becoming an annual Cy Young threat?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Musgrove, and most recently Keller, break away from the pitch to contact theory that the Pirates employ? Once they did, they had more success. Yeah, Keller's had a bad 2nd half, but he still has taken strides forward. The Pirates seem to draft pitchers or trade for prospects based on their 'stuff' or 'ability' and then try to mold them all into the same guy. Hasn't appeared to work well for the most part. We always heard about Ray Searage 'fixing' veteran starters like Burnett, Happ, and Liriano, right?. Maybe they came here and said - "that's not how I work' and did their thing while the younger guys had no choice but to go along because they had no status. It sure seems that the 'Searage impact' only worked on vets and not young pitchers. Maybe because they did their own thing and not Searage's.

I say, let Priester continue to develop in the majors. Let him pitch the game he, his catcher, and pitching coach devise based on his stuff and that day's opponent, not stick to a cookie-cutter, one size fits all approach. If he flames out, then he flames out. I think you allow him to build more confidence in himself that way. The Braves did that with Glavine, Smoltz, and Avery. They got rocked early on, but learned to pitch at the big league level. Avery eventually flamed out, but the other guys did ok. Seems a lot of Atlanta and Houston pitchers are allowed to use their natural ability to the fullest with a devised game plan based on that. If we do not have the right pitching coaches, or organizational development practices, then it doesn't matter who we draft or what prospects we acquire if we expect them all to do the same things.

[Wildwoodcoach]

I liked your different spin on Priester and the pitchers we had Cole, Musgrove etc. The only
difference is that they all went to much better teams who score a lot of runs and didn't have
to be perfect every time they went out

[Javy]

I liked your different spin on Priester and the pitchers we had Cole, Musgrove etc. The only
difference is that they all went to much better teams who score a lot of runs and didn't have
to be perfect every time they went out

There's a lot of truth to what you are saying, but the fact is, despite the better team factor, their respective pitching styles were allowed to come out more. If they were giving up 2-3 runs, they were still winning games or, at the least, keeping their teams in games. If they gave up 3 runs in Pittsburgh, the game was over normally because the Pirates had/have a terminal case of leaving runners on base. Cole and Morton also, suddenly became high strikeout pitchers, which they weren't with the Pirates. Sure, they increased their spin rates, and likely used the sticky stuff, but all of other the teams were doing that as well.

The Glavine and Smoltz reference was made with a deplorable team image in mind - those pre-90's Braves weren't any better than the Pirates if you recall, but by 1990/91, they were All-Stars and Cy Young candidates.

[Bobster]

My problem with letting Priester try to figure it out at the MLB level is the effect on the rest of the team. He's not the only guy being developed. Davis, Rodriguiez, Triolo, Peguero, Williams and most of the bullpen are all being developed and don't need to be put behind the 8-ball every time Priester takes the mound. It's not like he's close and just needs a little fine tuning. He gets rocked every time. We know how the culture of losing effects a team and I don't want the rest of the team subjected to almost sure losses whenever Priester pitches. The more competitive the team is, the better for their development on the MLB roster. But unless they score 6-7 runs, they are not competitive when he pitches.