7B505C5550510B063F0 wrote: This year, they couldn't have anticipated losing Marte and Kang. Losing 2 players of their caliber would hurt even big-money teams, but that crushed us. If they were with us, we might have taken a surprisingly under-performing division.
Maybe not, but the FO sure didn't do anything to address the problems their absences created.
When Oscar Tavares died, the Cardinals immediately went out and traded for Jason Heyward. I'm not necessarily saying they needed to make a big, splashy move like that, but at least give the appearance that you're trying to improve the team.
I went back and counted -- do you realize the Pirates have made exactly THREE trades since the calendar flipped to 2017? Only ONE trade went down since the season started (Barbato). This number seems abnormally low.
-- Sent PTBNL/cash to MIN for Pat Light (who has since been waived and claimed by Seattle).
-- Traded Frank Duncan to AZ for Phil Gosselin.
-- Traded PTBNL to NYY for Johnny Barbato.
Having a FO that just sits on its hands is how the Pirates wound up with two natural outfielders (Cutch, Polanco) on the roster and how even Freese became an everyday player even though he admitted he probably shouldn't be one.
McCutchen's drop off
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
McCutchen's drop off
7A4D5B79565C7D5D4A380 wrote: This year, they couldn't have anticipated losing Marte and Kang. Losing 2 players of their caliber would hurt even big-money teams, but that crushed us. If they were with us, we might have taken a surprisingly under-performing division.
Maybe not, but the FO sure didn't do anything to address the problems their absences created.
When Oscar Tavares died, the Cardinals immediately went out and traded for Jason Heyward. I'm not necessarily saying they needed to make a big, splashy move like that, but at least give the appearance that you're trying to improve the team.
I went back and counted -- do you realize the Pirates have made exactly THREE trades since the calendar flipped to 2017? Only ONE trade went down since the season started (Barbato). This number seems abnormally low.
-- Sent PTBNL/cash to MIN for Pat Light (who has since been waived and claimed by Seattle).
-- Traded Frank Duncan to AZ for Phil Gosselin.
-- Traded PTBNL to NYY for Johnny Barbato.
Having a FO that just sits on its hands is how the Pirates wound up with two natural outfielders (Cutch, Polanco) on the roster and how even Freese became an everyday player even though he admitted he probably shouldn't be one.
True, the team needs improving, and has needed it for awhile. The question is then: Is the front office blind, stupidly incompetent, and incapable of seeing what the average fan can see, or are their hands tied, without the budget to make the changes even a child could see are necessary?
The FO might place a high value on their prospects, or they might not be able to take on salary in a trade due to constraints placed on them. Or they're outright incompetent. Without further info, it's hard to know what is the cause, or if it's a combination of the above. Clearly, the team is not where we'd like it. The question is then: what do we do? Some people don't trust the FO to do anything at all, which pretty much shuts down all discussion. No matter the suggestion, the reply will involve the FO messing it up. Kind of counterproductive on a discussion board.
I approach suggestions to improve the team with the unspoken proviso:"Assuming the front office doesn't act incompetently." To do otherwise just shuts down all discussion other than chants to remove management. I also try to think within the budget the FO seems to have. While I think it's too small and limiting, and not necessarily with good reason, to do otherwise also limits discussion to, ""Nutting is cheap", which, while probably true, isn't much fun to continually read about and even less fun to discuss.
There were a couple years where adding even ONE decent starting pitcher might have won us the series, but it wasn't done. Since a blind man could have seen the value and need for that addition, my best guess is the FO didn't do it for budgetary reasons. Likely, most other issues were not addressed for the same reason.
Maybe not, but the FO sure didn't do anything to address the problems their absences created.
When Oscar Tavares died, the Cardinals immediately went out and traded for Jason Heyward. I'm not necessarily saying they needed to make a big, splashy move like that, but at least give the appearance that you're trying to improve the team.
I went back and counted -- do you realize the Pirates have made exactly THREE trades since the calendar flipped to 2017? Only ONE trade went down since the season started (Barbato). This number seems abnormally low.
-- Sent PTBNL/cash to MIN for Pat Light (who has since been waived and claimed by Seattle).
-- Traded Frank Duncan to AZ for Phil Gosselin.
-- Traded PTBNL to NYY for Johnny Barbato.
Having a FO that just sits on its hands is how the Pirates wound up with two natural outfielders (Cutch, Polanco) on the roster and how even Freese became an everyday player even though he admitted he probably shouldn't be one.
True, the team needs improving, and has needed it for awhile. The question is then: Is the front office blind, stupidly incompetent, and incapable of seeing what the average fan can see, or are their hands tied, without the budget to make the changes even a child could see are necessary?
The FO might place a high value on their prospects, or they might not be able to take on salary in a trade due to constraints placed on them. Or they're outright incompetent. Without further info, it's hard to know what is the cause, or if it's a combination of the above. Clearly, the team is not where we'd like it. The question is then: what do we do? Some people don't trust the FO to do anything at all, which pretty much shuts down all discussion. No matter the suggestion, the reply will involve the FO messing it up. Kind of counterproductive on a discussion board.
I approach suggestions to improve the team with the unspoken proviso:"Assuming the front office doesn't act incompetently." To do otherwise just shuts down all discussion other than chants to remove management. I also try to think within the budget the FO seems to have. While I think it's too small and limiting, and not necessarily with good reason, to do otherwise also limits discussion to, ""Nutting is cheap", which, while probably true, isn't much fun to continually read about and even less fun to discuss.
There were a couple years where adding even ONE decent starting pitcher might have won us the series, but it wasn't done. Since a blind man could have seen the value and need for that addition, my best guess is the FO didn't do it for budgetary reasons. Likely, most other issues were not addressed for the same reason.
McCutchen's drop off
I basically agree with what you are saying but then it does bring into question the integrity of NH and FC. If they honestly believe that they can't make the moves needed to win it all, why say they want to win championships. They could imply that but they shouldn't state it. Also, they should be trying to convince Nutting to raise the payroll and tell him it is almost impossible to win if not changed.
You would also think they would want to leave for a chance to show they could build a pennant winner.
This year the team had some found money (the salaries they didn't need to pay to Marte or Kang) yet they still didn't try to fill the outfield or bullpen gap other than through waiver type moves.
I don't think that NH and or FC are incompetent but it could be that they are average or even a little above average. With the constraints that the Bucs operate under it will take someone who is great (or incredibly lucky) to win a championship.
You would also think they would want to leave for a chance to show they could build a pennant winner.
This year the team had some found money (the salaries they didn't need to pay to Marte or Kang) yet they still didn't try to fill the outfield or bullpen gap other than through waiver type moves.
I don't think that NH and or FC are incompetent but it could be that they are average or even a little above average. With the constraints that the Bucs operate under it will take someone who is great (or incredibly lucky) to win a championship.
McCutchen's drop off
Personally, I think Huntington is elite. I'm "meh" on FC, and tired of Nutting. But, I think Huntington is a gem. Is he the best GM in baseball? Debatable. But, I'd definitely put him top 5. Why he stays in Pittsburgh is beyond me. I've got to believe there are plenty of other teams with more resources who would love to have a guy like NH. He's made some head-scratching trades, but generally, he has fielded a competitive team. This year is the first in the last six that we weren't mildly competitive.
2011 we were in the pennant race until Jerry Meals decided he was tired and wanted to go home.
2012 we were 63-47 after 110 games.
2013-15 we made the playoffs.
Even last year, we were half a game out of the Wild Card and even in the loss column until some time in August.
All that on a shoestring budget and being unable to even consider adding a guy like Scherzer.
2011 we were in the pennant race until Jerry Meals decided he was tired and wanted to go home.
2012 we were 63-47 after 110 games.
2013-15 we made the playoffs.
Even last year, we were half a game out of the Wild Card and even in the loss column until some time in August.
All that on a shoestring budget and being unable to even consider adding a guy like Scherzer.
McCutchen's drop off
7E76754254715659370 wrote: Personally, I think Huntington is elite. I'm "meh" on FC, and tired of Nutting. But, I think Huntington is a gem. Is he the best GM in baseball? Debatable. But, I'd definitely put him top 5. Why he stays in Pittsburgh is beyond me. I've got to believe there are plenty of other teams with more resources who would love to have a guy like NH. He's made some head-scratching trades, but generally, he has fielded a competitive team. This year is the first in the last six that we weren't mildly competitive.
2011 we were in the pennant race until Jerry Meals decided he was tired and wanted to go home.
2012 we were 63-47 after 110 games.
2013-15 we made the playoffs.
Even last year, we were half a game out of the Wild Card and even in the loss column until some time in August.
All that on a shoestring budget and being unable to even consider adding a guy like Scherzer.
the beauty of having 2 wild card teams is that more than half the teams are usually in contention in mid-August.
currently in the AL 11 teams are within 3.5 games of first place or the wild card. in the NL only 5 are within 4 games of first or wild card. (there are only 5 NL teams with a winning record)
2011 we were in the pennant race until Jerry Meals decided he was tired and wanted to go home.
2012 we were 63-47 after 110 games.
2013-15 we made the playoffs.
Even last year, we were half a game out of the Wild Card and even in the loss column until some time in August.
All that on a shoestring budget and being unable to even consider adding a guy like Scherzer.
the beauty of having 2 wild card teams is that more than half the teams are usually in contention in mid-August.
currently in the AL 11 teams are within 3.5 games of first place or the wild card. in the NL only 5 are within 4 games of first or wild card. (there are only 5 NL teams with a winning record)
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Bobster21
McCutchen's drop off
40484B7C6A4F6867090 wrote: Personally, I think Huntington is elite. I'm "meh" on FC, and tired of Nutting. But, I think Huntington is a gem. Is he the best GM in baseball? Debatable. But, I'd definitely put him top 5. Why he stays in Pittsburgh is beyond me. I've got to believe there are plenty of other teams with more resources who would love to have a guy like NH. He's made some head-scratching trades, but generally, he has fielded a competitive team. This year is the first in the last six that we weren't mildly competitive.
2011 we were in the pennant race until Jerry Meals decided he was tired and wanted to go home.
2012 we were 63-47 after 110 games.
2013-15 we made the playoffs.
Even last year, we were half a game out of the Wild Card and even in the loss column until some time in August.
All that on a shoestring budget and being unable to even consider adding a guy like Scherzer.
I think you are giving NH way too much credit. Not because I think he is bad but because I think he is severely hamstrung by an edict from Nutting to not spend money. So it's hard to know what he could do otherwise. I don't think any GM could do well when forced to maintain one of MLB's lowest payrolls every single year. I guess we won't know his true ability until he leaves the the Pirates and gets a real GM job with an owner who truly wants to win. I suspect he could be a good GM if he actually had the chance.
2011 we were in the pennant race until Jerry Meals decided he was tired and wanted to go home.
2012 we were 63-47 after 110 games.
2013-15 we made the playoffs.
Even last year, we were half a game out of the Wild Card and even in the loss column until some time in August.
All that on a shoestring budget and being unable to even consider adding a guy like Scherzer.
I think you are giving NH way too much credit. Not because I think he is bad but because I think he is severely hamstrung by an edict from Nutting to not spend money. So it's hard to know what he could do otherwise. I don't think any GM could do well when forced to maintain one of MLB's lowest payrolls every single year. I guess we won't know his true ability until he leaves the the Pirates and gets a real GM job with an owner who truly wants to win. I suspect he could be a good GM if he actually had the chance.
McCutchen's drop off
221503210E04250512600 wrote: This year, they couldn't have anticipated losing Marte and Kang. Losing 2 players of their caliber would hurt even big-money teams, but that crushed us. If they were with us, we might have taken a surprisingly under-performing division.
Maybe not, but the FO sure didn't do anything to address the problems their absences created.
When Oscar Tavares died, the Cardinals immediately went out and traded for Jason Heyward. I'm not necessarily saying they needed to make a big, splashy move like that, but at least give the appearance that you're trying to improve the team.
I went back and counted -- do you realize the Pirates have made exactly THREE trades since the calendar flipped to 2017? Only ONE trade went down since the season started (Barbato). This number seems abnormally low.
-- Sent PTBNL/cash to MIN for Pat Light (who has since been waived and claimed by Seattle).
-- Traded Frank Duncan to AZ for Phil Gosselin.
-- Traded PTBNL to NYY for Johnny Barbato.
Having a FO that just sits on its hands is how the Pirates wound up with two natural outfielders (Cutch, Polanco) on the roster and how even Freese became an everyday player even though he admitted he probably shouldn't be one.
So they should have traded Tallion? Cause that's what the Cards did. Not to mention that they did this in the offseason and not in mid April.
There is not team in baseball that the Kang announcement in mid March and the Marte announcement in mid April would have killed.
Throw in testicular cancer and this season was over in May
Maybe not, but the FO sure didn't do anything to address the problems their absences created.
When Oscar Tavares died, the Cardinals immediately went out and traded for Jason Heyward. I'm not necessarily saying they needed to make a big, splashy move like that, but at least give the appearance that you're trying to improve the team.
I went back and counted -- do you realize the Pirates have made exactly THREE trades since the calendar flipped to 2017? Only ONE trade went down since the season started (Barbato). This number seems abnormally low.
-- Sent PTBNL/cash to MIN for Pat Light (who has since been waived and claimed by Seattle).
-- Traded Frank Duncan to AZ for Phil Gosselin.
-- Traded PTBNL to NYY for Johnny Barbato.
Having a FO that just sits on its hands is how the Pirates wound up with two natural outfielders (Cutch, Polanco) on the roster and how even Freese became an everyday player even though he admitted he probably shouldn't be one.
So they should have traded Tallion? Cause that's what the Cards did. Not to mention that they did this in the offseason and not in mid April.
There is not team in baseball that the Kang announcement in mid March and the Marte announcement in mid April would have killed.
Throw in testicular cancer and this season was over in May
McCutchen's drop off
6A57504A57503E0 wrote: This year, they couldn't have anticipated losing Marte and Kang. Losing 2 players of their caliber would hurt even big-money teams, but that crushed us. If they were with us, we might have taken a surprisingly under-performing division.
Maybe not, but the FO sure didn't do anything to address the problems their absences created.
When Oscar Tavares died, the Cardinals immediately went out and traded for Jason Heyward. I'm not necessarily saying they needed to make a big, splashy move like that, but at least give the appearance that you're trying to improve the team.
I went back and counted -- do you realize the Pirates have made exactly THREE trades since the calendar flipped to 2017? Only ONE trade went down since the season started (Barbato). This number seems abnormally low.
-- Sent PTBNL/cash to MIN for Pat Light (who has since been waived and claimed by Seattle).
-- Traded Frank Duncan to AZ for Phil Gosselin.
-- Traded PTBNL to NYY for Johnny Barbato.
Having a FO that just sits on its hands is how the Pirates wound up with two natural outfielders (Cutch, Polanco) on the roster and how even Freese became an everyday player even though he admitted he probably shouldn't be one.
So they should have traded Tallion? Cause that's what the Cards did. Not to mention that they did this in the offseason and not in mid April.
There is not team in baseball that the Kang announcement in mid March and the Marte announcement in mid April would have killed.
Throw in testicular cancer and this season was over in May
the season would have been over in any division but NL Central. Only 4 back on June 29.
Maybe not, but the FO sure didn't do anything to address the problems their absences created.
When Oscar Tavares died, the Cardinals immediately went out and traded for Jason Heyward. I'm not necessarily saying they needed to make a big, splashy move like that, but at least give the appearance that you're trying to improve the team.
I went back and counted -- do you realize the Pirates have made exactly THREE trades since the calendar flipped to 2017? Only ONE trade went down since the season started (Barbato). This number seems abnormally low.
-- Sent PTBNL/cash to MIN for Pat Light (who has since been waived and claimed by Seattle).
-- Traded Frank Duncan to AZ for Phil Gosselin.
-- Traded PTBNL to NYY for Johnny Barbato.
Having a FO that just sits on its hands is how the Pirates wound up with two natural outfielders (Cutch, Polanco) on the roster and how even Freese became an everyday player even though he admitted he probably shouldn't be one.
So they should have traded Tallion? Cause that's what the Cards did. Not to mention that they did this in the offseason and not in mid April.
There is not team in baseball that the Kang announcement in mid March and the Marte announcement in mid April would have killed.
Throw in testicular cancer and this season was over in May
the season would have been over in any division but NL Central. Only 4 back on June 29.
McCutchen's drop off
5F79786F79691A0 wrote: I basically agree with what you are saying but then it does bring into question the integrity of NH and FC. If they honestly believe that they can't make the moves needed to win it all, why say they want to win championships. They could imply that but they shouldn't state it. Also, they should be trying to convince Nutting to raise the payroll and tell him it is almost impossible to win if not changed.
You would also think they would want to leave for a chance to show they could build a pennant winner.
This year the team had some found money (the salaries they didn't need to pay to Marte or Kang) yet they still didn't try to fill the outfield or bullpen gap other than through waiver type moves.
I don't think that NH and or FC are incompetent but it could be that they are average or even a little above average. With the constraints that the Bucs operate under it will take someone who is great (or incredibly lucky) to win a championship.
We're talking about CHARACTER now? We're starting to get pretty far afield. What makes you think they honestly believe they can't make the moves needed to win? Further, how do you know they're NOT trying to convince Nutting to raise the payroll? You are assuming things that none of us have any way of knowing. The conditions under which they have to build a championship team are not ideal, but that doesn't mean it can't ever be done. It just can't be done every year, or even most years. That doesn't make them liars.
What was left on the FA market, that we would actually want, when we learned Kang and Marte would not be playing? Without even looking, just going by the dates. . . nada(I could be wrong here, but I kind of doubt it). We would have had to trade prospects to replace them, and we would have had to find a suitable dance partner. You can't just say what you want to happen, conditions have to exist to allow it. There would need to be a team who wants to trade away an above-average outfielder or 3rd baseman, very early in the season, and not ask for Taillon or Meadows (or the like) in return.
Baseball is hard.
You would also think they would want to leave for a chance to show they could build a pennant winner.
This year the team had some found money (the salaries they didn't need to pay to Marte or Kang) yet they still didn't try to fill the outfield or bullpen gap other than through waiver type moves.
I don't think that NH and or FC are incompetent but it could be that they are average or even a little above average. With the constraints that the Bucs operate under it will take someone who is great (or incredibly lucky) to win a championship.
We're talking about CHARACTER now? We're starting to get pretty far afield. What makes you think they honestly believe they can't make the moves needed to win? Further, how do you know they're NOT trying to convince Nutting to raise the payroll? You are assuming things that none of us have any way of knowing. The conditions under which they have to build a championship team are not ideal, but that doesn't mean it can't ever be done. It just can't be done every year, or even most years. That doesn't make them liars.
What was left on the FA market, that we would actually want, when we learned Kang and Marte would not be playing? Without even looking, just going by the dates. . . nada(I could be wrong here, but I kind of doubt it). We would have had to trade prospects to replace them, and we would have had to find a suitable dance partner. You can't just say what you want to happen, conditions have to exist to allow it. There would need to be a team who wants to trade away an above-average outfielder or 3rd baseman, very early in the season, and not ask for Taillon or Meadows (or the like) in return.
Baseball is hard.
McCutchen's drop off
The season was likely over once it was established that Kang wasn't getting a visa. The season was over for sure with Marte's suspension.
but we had a .500 ish baseball team with them both. no doubt about it. So realistically, the season was over on opening day unless moves were made and we got lucky. We didn't have a team rostered with any margin for error and there are errors in baseball.
The self-inflicted Kang and Marte situation is not the FO's fault. I'll be extremely EXTREMELY generous and say full year Kang, 1/2 year marte is worth a 10 game swing.
Therefore a .500 team loses 91. which is going to happen.
but we had a .500 ish baseball team with them both. no doubt about it. So realistically, the season was over on opening day unless moves were made and we got lucky. We didn't have a team rostered with any margin for error and there are errors in baseball.
The self-inflicted Kang and Marte situation is not the FO's fault. I'll be extremely EXTREMELY generous and say full year Kang, 1/2 year marte is worth a 10 game swing.
Therefore a .500 team loses 91. which is going to happen.