Irreperably? The game's flourishing. Attendance is up. Owners are making more money than ever. Players are making money. New stadiums are helping to bringing vitality into cities. Television revenue's increasing. That's not coming from their charitibleness.
Money follows popularity. People gripe, but a whole lot more are willing to spend.
We see what we want to see.
We have one guy (Nutting) who takes advantage of his situation. That skews the view of the entirity, then we blame it on just about anyone else.
The next CBA and the future of MLB
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
The next CBA and the future of MLB
Here's an article from Forbes Magazine detailing the CBA talks, what is being proposed or thus far agreed upon.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnperrot ... 4901db2814
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnperrot ... 4901db2814
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
The next CBA and the future of MLB
576275757E4775757E7975100 wrote: Irreperably? The game's flourishing. Attendance is up. Owners are making more money than ever. Players are making money. New stadiums are helping to bringing vitality into cities. Television revenue's increasing. That's not coming from their charitibleness.
Money follows popularity. People gripe, but a whole lot more are willing to spend.
We see what we want to see.
We have one guy (Nutting) who takes advantage of his situation. That skews the view of the entirity, then we blame it on just about anyone else.
I realize it's pointless to try and discuss this with some folks but if anyone thinks baseball is flourishing in America well that's obvious. But for sure we see what we want to see. Stats can be used to prove what you want to see. Attendance is up but we have more teams, and many more people in America than we did 20 year ago, more revenue but I don't make what I did 20 years ago either. It's obvious baseball isn't America's game anymore. Blaming owners for baseball problems fails to realize someone has to be in charge in America. Letting the inmates run the prison will never turn out well.
Money follows popularity. People gripe, but a whole lot more are willing to spend.
We see what we want to see.
We have one guy (Nutting) who takes advantage of his situation. That skews the view of the entirity, then we blame it on just about anyone else.
I realize it's pointless to try and discuss this with some folks but if anyone thinks baseball is flourishing in America well that's obvious. But for sure we see what we want to see. Stats can be used to prove what you want to see. Attendance is up but we have more teams, and many more people in America than we did 20 year ago, more revenue but I don't make what I did 20 years ago either. It's obvious baseball isn't America's game anymore. Blaming owners for baseball problems fails to realize someone has to be in charge in America. Letting the inmates run the prison will never turn out well.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
The next CBA and the future of MLB
MLB's like any other business. There are segments where things are going very well, and pockets where it isn't, and, of course it depends on the factors being examined.
In the pockets where franchises have problems, there are reasons. In our case, we've got certain factors that make things more challenging. We tend to focus on "small market.: That only tells part of the story. The bigger contributor is that- to your point- where The Burgh was focused more on the Pirates was a long time ago before the Steelers came to prominence and before the Penguins were even worth discussing. In markets like Milwaukee and Cincinnati, there are fewer major league professional team franchises competing for fans' dollars.
I have my concerns, and I hope that I'm not over-reacting. I question whether MLB can remain viable for the long term in the Pittsburgh region [highlight]if Nutting continues to own the Pirates.[/highlight] He was given an opportunity to sell the team to the Lemieux group several years ago, and the conversation was supposedly brief.
That tells me two things. It tells me that the franchise isn't hurting all that much for money.
It tells me that at least one former potential buyer felt that the franchise would do well.
I don't know what 29 competitor/partners can be expected to do to solve this. I don't have that answer.
Pete Rozelle was able to convince NFL teams to go along with his plan. I haven't seen a MLB commissioner yet who has that level of persuasion.
I'm still of the opinion that the Pirates' issues are more internal than anything else. If poor finances were the issue, the team would have been sold long ago.
In the pockets where franchises have problems, there are reasons. In our case, we've got certain factors that make things more challenging. We tend to focus on "small market.: That only tells part of the story. The bigger contributor is that- to your point- where The Burgh was focused more on the Pirates was a long time ago before the Steelers came to prominence and before the Penguins were even worth discussing. In markets like Milwaukee and Cincinnati, there are fewer major league professional team franchises competing for fans' dollars.
I have my concerns, and I hope that I'm not over-reacting. I question whether MLB can remain viable for the long term in the Pittsburgh region [highlight]if Nutting continues to own the Pirates.[/highlight] He was given an opportunity to sell the team to the Lemieux group several years ago, and the conversation was supposedly brief.
That tells me two things. It tells me that the franchise isn't hurting all that much for money.
It tells me that at least one former potential buyer felt that the franchise would do well.
I don't know what 29 competitor/partners can be expected to do to solve this. I don't have that answer.
Pete Rozelle was able to convince NFL teams to go along with his plan. I haven't seen a MLB commissioner yet who has that level of persuasion.
I'm still of the opinion that the Pirates' issues are more internal than anything else. If poor finances were the issue, the team would have been sold long ago.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
The next CBA and the future of MLB
Nutting is definitely a problem, but I don't begrudge him making money, but I do not like he knows nothing about the game and is only in it for the money. He's just not a very good business man. Just think how much he could make if the Pirates were more like the Cardinals. Same Market size but owners with baseball savvy and good business instincts. That's what I would like to see.
But the real problem with baseball is free agency without a salary cap. The bottom line is I and most average americans can't afford to go to a MLB game. That is driven by players making $30,000,000 while we make $60,000. That's the real problem with MLB and until the Union deals with it MLB will not become what it could and should be America's game. Quit catering to the rich and upper classes in our society and return to their roots, the common man.
But the real problem with baseball is free agency without a salary cap. The bottom line is I and most average americans can't afford to go to a MLB game. That is driven by players making $30,000,000 while we make $60,000. That's the real problem with MLB and until the Union deals with it MLB will not become what it could and should be America's game. Quit catering to the rich and upper classes in our society and return to their roots, the common man.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
The next CBA and the future of MLB
I only buy some fraction of that. That's not directed at you. It's directed at that kind of logic.
Look at the other three major professional team sports.
I'll just use football as an example because not everyone here follows the NBA and the NHL.
The NFL has the cap. It has a floor.
Yet, the NE Pats and the Steelers have a whole bunch of trophies.
The Cleveland Browns and Detroit Lions? Equal money. So, money isn't the excuse.
Competence.
The Pirates lack it.
That could be changing. We have hope.
But, we're talking about an incompetent person at the top.
I think that the other owners will allow the Pirates to exist. What we do as far as our record goes is on us.
Look at the other three major professional team sports.
I'll just use football as an example because not everyone here follows the NBA and the NHL.
The NFL has the cap. It has a floor.
Yet, the NE Pats and the Steelers have a whole bunch of trophies.
The Cleveland Browns and Detroit Lions? Equal money. So, money isn't the excuse.
Competence.
The Pirates lack it.
That could be changing. We have hope.
But, we're talking about an incompetent person at the top.
I think that the other owners will allow the Pirates to exist. What we do as far as our record goes is on us.
The next CBA and the future of MLB
362E2C2B2B3C2D2A373620450 wrote: Nutting is definitely a problem, but I don't begrudge him making money, but I do not like he knows nothing about the game and is only in it for the money. He's just not a very good business man. Just think how much he could make if the Pirates were more like the Cardinals. Same Market size but owners with baseball savvy and good business instincts. That's what I would like to see.
But the real problem with baseball is free agency without a salary cap. The bottom line is I and most average americans can't afford to go to a MLB game. That is driven by players making $30,000,000 while we make $60,000. That's the real problem with MLB and until the Union deals with it MLB will not become what it could and should be America's game. Quit catering to the rich and upper classes in our society and return to their roots, the common man.
Yet baseball tickets are cheaper than NFL, NBA and NHL tickets.
But the real problem with baseball is free agency without a salary cap. The bottom line is I and most average americans can't afford to go to a MLB game. That is driven by players making $30,000,000 while we make $60,000. That's the real problem with MLB and until the Union deals with it MLB will not become what it could and should be America's game. Quit catering to the rich and upper classes in our society and return to their roots, the common man.
Yet baseball tickets are cheaper than NFL, NBA and NHL tickets.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
The next CBA and the future of MLB
033621212A1321212A2D21440 wrote: I only buy some fraction of that. That's not directed at you. It's directed at that kind of logic.
Look at the other three major professional team sports.
I'll just use football as an example because not everyone here follows the NBA and the NHL.
The NFL has the cap. It has a floor.
Yet, the NE Pats and the Steelers have a whole bunch of trophies.
The Cleveland Browns and Detroit Lions? Equal money. So, money isn't the excuse.
Competence.
The Pirates lack it.
That could be changing. We have hope.
But, we're talking about an incompetent person at the top.
I think that the other owners will allow the Pirates to exist. What we do as far as our record goes is on us.
Sounds like we agree that Nutting is a problem and I've long argued the Community put pressure on him. He's costing the community millions with the Pirates underperforming year after year.
However I'm saying the Baseball Union is MLB biggest problem. I along with most Americans can't afford to go to ballgames which cost more than a $100 per person in most stadiums for bad seats. The reason for such outrageous prices is these enormous contracts. I want baseball to be the game of the common man not the elites. It would be nice to be able to go to several games per year instead of one game every 10 years. The only way that will ever be possible is the players union being restrained or abolished.
Look at the other three major professional team sports.
I'll just use football as an example because not everyone here follows the NBA and the NHL.
The NFL has the cap. It has a floor.
Yet, the NE Pats and the Steelers have a whole bunch of trophies.
The Cleveland Browns and Detroit Lions? Equal money. So, money isn't the excuse.
Competence.
The Pirates lack it.
That could be changing. We have hope.
But, we're talking about an incompetent person at the top.
I think that the other owners will allow the Pirates to exist. What we do as far as our record goes is on us.
Sounds like we agree that Nutting is a problem and I've long argued the Community put pressure on him. He's costing the community millions with the Pirates underperforming year after year.
However I'm saying the Baseball Union is MLB biggest problem. I along with most Americans can't afford to go to ballgames which cost more than a $100 per person in most stadiums for bad seats. The reason for such outrageous prices is these enormous contracts. I want baseball to be the game of the common man not the elites. It would be nice to be able to go to several games per year instead of one game every 10 years. The only way that will ever be possible is the players union being restrained or abolished.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
The next CBA and the future of MLB
4E565453534455524F4E583D0 wrote: I only buy some fraction of that. That's not directed at you. It's directed at that kind of logic.
Look at the other three major professional team sports.
I'll just use football as an example because not everyone here follows the NBA and the NHL.
The NFL has the cap. It has a floor.
Yet, the NE Pats and the Steelers have a whole bunch of trophies.
The Cleveland Browns and Detroit Lions? Equal money. So, money isn't the excuse.
Competence.
The Pirates lack it.
That could be changing. We have hope.
But, we're talking about an incompetent person at the top.
I think that the other owners will allow the Pirates to exist. What we do as far as our record goes is on us.
Sounds like we agree that Nutting is a problem and I've long argued the Community put pressure on him. He's costing the community millions with the Pirates underperforming year after year.
However I'm saying the Baseball Union is MLB biggest problem. I along with most Americans can't afford to go to ballgames which cost more than a $100 per person in most stadiums for bad seats. The reason for such outrageous prices is these enormous contracts. I want baseball to be the game of the common man not the elites. It would be nice to be able to go to several games per year instead of one game every 10 years. The only way that will ever be possible is the players union being restrained or abolished.
One of the reasons some player contracts are so high is the new types of revenues owners have been receiving over the past 20 years or so. It wasn't that long ago that a team's revenue came only from ticket sales, and local radio and television contracts. Now, revenues are also coming from the national radio and TV deals, social media in all its forms, and the Internet, which have increased the earnings of owners immensely.
That especially allows the big city franchises, operating in a very small labor market, to entice the best players with ever-larger contract offers. Prices are driven further higher by the competition among those franchises for those few players.
There's no going back unless something catastrophic happens. I don't know what that would be. But with all the money both are making, it's unlikely to happen. With regard to abolishing or restricting the union, I image the MLBPA enjoys protection from such a thing by US labor laws.
To me, the owners would have to become a group of socialists and equalize everything. That's not going to happen. All of the owners are wealthy, and ones like Nutting are satisfied with their position. He has no need to take risks by paying out large contracts in order to try to win as he's fine with simply having his team be a schedule filler for the rich guys in exchange for accepting their handout. The rich guys are okay with that because Nutting's team is one less competitor for the title. Everyone wins, except us Pirates fans, but no one in the game cares one wit about us anyway.
Look at the other three major professional team sports.
I'll just use football as an example because not everyone here follows the NBA and the NHL.
The NFL has the cap. It has a floor.
Yet, the NE Pats and the Steelers have a whole bunch of trophies.
The Cleveland Browns and Detroit Lions? Equal money. So, money isn't the excuse.
Competence.
The Pirates lack it.
That could be changing. We have hope.
But, we're talking about an incompetent person at the top.
I think that the other owners will allow the Pirates to exist. What we do as far as our record goes is on us.
Sounds like we agree that Nutting is a problem and I've long argued the Community put pressure on him. He's costing the community millions with the Pirates underperforming year after year.
However I'm saying the Baseball Union is MLB biggest problem. I along with most Americans can't afford to go to ballgames which cost more than a $100 per person in most stadiums for bad seats. The reason for such outrageous prices is these enormous contracts. I want baseball to be the game of the common man not the elites. It would be nice to be able to go to several games per year instead of one game every 10 years. The only way that will ever be possible is the players union being restrained or abolished.
One of the reasons some player contracts are so high is the new types of revenues owners have been receiving over the past 20 years or so. It wasn't that long ago that a team's revenue came only from ticket sales, and local radio and television contracts. Now, revenues are also coming from the national radio and TV deals, social media in all its forms, and the Internet, which have increased the earnings of owners immensely.
That especially allows the big city franchises, operating in a very small labor market, to entice the best players with ever-larger contract offers. Prices are driven further higher by the competition among those franchises for those few players.
There's no going back unless something catastrophic happens. I don't know what that would be. But with all the money both are making, it's unlikely to happen. With regard to abolishing or restricting the union, I image the MLBPA enjoys protection from such a thing by US labor laws.
To me, the owners would have to become a group of socialists and equalize everything. That's not going to happen. All of the owners are wealthy, and ones like Nutting are satisfied with their position. He has no need to take risks by paying out large contracts in order to try to win as he's fine with simply having his team be a schedule filler for the rich guys in exchange for accepting their handout. The rich guys are okay with that because Nutting's team is one less competitor for the title. Everyone wins, except us Pirates fans, but no one in the game cares one wit about us anyway.
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WildwoodDave2
The next CBA and the future of MLB
0355435758425259544371565C50585D1F52310 wrote: I only buy some fraction of that. That's not directed at you. It's directed at that kind of logic.
Look at the other three major professional team sports.
I'll just use football as an example because not everyone here follows the NBA and the NHL.
The NFL has the cap. It has a floor.
Yet, the NE Pats and the Steelers have a whole bunch of trophies.
The Cleveland Browns and Detroit Lions? Equal money. So, money isn't the excuse.
Competence.
The Pirates lack it.
That could be changing. We have hope.
But, we're talking about an incompetent person at the top.
I think that the other owners will allow the Pirates to exist. What we do as far as our record goes is on us.
Sounds like we agree that Nutting is a problem and I've long argued the Community put pressure on him. He's costing the community millions with the Pirates underperforming year after year.
However I'm saying the Baseball Union is MLB biggest problem. I along with most Americans can't afford to go to ballgames which cost more than a $100 per person in most stadiums for bad seats. The reason for such outrageous prices is these enormous contracts. I want baseball to be the game of the common man not the elites. It would be nice to be able to go to several games per year instead of one game every 10 years. The only way that will ever be possible is the players union being restrained or abolished.
One of the reasons some player contracts are so high is the new types of revenues owners have been receiving over the past 20 years or so. It wasn't that long ago that a team's revenue came only from ticket sales, and local radio and television contracts. Now, revenues are also coming from the national radio and TV deals, social media in all its forms, and the Internet, which have increased the earnings of owners immensely.
That especially allows the big city franchises, operating in a very small labor market, to entice the best players with ever-larger contract offers. Prices are driven further higher by the competition among those franchises for those few players.
There's no going back unless something catastrophic happens. I don't know what that would be. But with all the money both are making, it's unlikely to happen. With regard to abolishing or restricting the union, I image the MLBPA enjoys protection from such a thing by US labor laws.
To me, the owners would have to become a group of socialists and equalize everything. That's not going to happen. All of the owners are wealthy, and ones like Nutting are satisfied with their position. He has no need to take risks by paying out large contracts in order to try to win as he's fine with simply having his team be a schedule filler for the rich guys in exchange for accepting their handout. The rich guys are okay with that because Nutting's team is one less competitor for the title. Everyone wins, except us Pirates fans, but no one in the game cares one wit about us anyway.
Agree with your last sentence 100%. As long as Nutting can continue to make money without any consequences, why should he change?!
Look at the other three major professional team sports.
I'll just use football as an example because not everyone here follows the NBA and the NHL.
The NFL has the cap. It has a floor.
Yet, the NE Pats and the Steelers have a whole bunch of trophies.
The Cleveland Browns and Detroit Lions? Equal money. So, money isn't the excuse.
Competence.
The Pirates lack it.
That could be changing. We have hope.
But, we're talking about an incompetent person at the top.
I think that the other owners will allow the Pirates to exist. What we do as far as our record goes is on us.
Sounds like we agree that Nutting is a problem and I've long argued the Community put pressure on him. He's costing the community millions with the Pirates underperforming year after year.
However I'm saying the Baseball Union is MLB biggest problem. I along with most Americans can't afford to go to ballgames which cost more than a $100 per person in most stadiums for bad seats. The reason for such outrageous prices is these enormous contracts. I want baseball to be the game of the common man not the elites. It would be nice to be able to go to several games per year instead of one game every 10 years. The only way that will ever be possible is the players union being restrained or abolished.
One of the reasons some player contracts are so high is the new types of revenues owners have been receiving over the past 20 years or so. It wasn't that long ago that a team's revenue came only from ticket sales, and local radio and television contracts. Now, revenues are also coming from the national radio and TV deals, social media in all its forms, and the Internet, which have increased the earnings of owners immensely.
That especially allows the big city franchises, operating in a very small labor market, to entice the best players with ever-larger contract offers. Prices are driven further higher by the competition among those franchises for those few players.
There's no going back unless something catastrophic happens. I don't know what that would be. But with all the money both are making, it's unlikely to happen. With regard to abolishing or restricting the union, I image the MLBPA enjoys protection from such a thing by US labor laws.
To me, the owners would have to become a group of socialists and equalize everything. That's not going to happen. All of the owners are wealthy, and ones like Nutting are satisfied with their position. He has no need to take risks by paying out large contracts in order to try to win as he's fine with simply having his team be a schedule filler for the rich guys in exchange for accepting their handout. The rich guys are okay with that because Nutting's team is one less competitor for the title. Everyone wins, except us Pirates fans, but no one in the game cares one wit about us anyway.
Agree with your last sentence 100%. As long as Nutting can continue to make money without any consequences, why should he change?!