NL Division Series - Dodgers vs Giants

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GreenWeenie
Posts: 4012
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm

NL Division Series - Dodgers vs Giants

Post by GreenWeenie »

104650444B51414A475062454F434B4E0C41220 wrote: A game like this, you can't have a schlep calling balls and strikes. Bryant strikes out after seeing two balls that were WAYYY out of the zone called strikes.



I hate umpires that make the game about them and their effing strike zones. This clown is awful


This brings up the point again about whether or not umpiring as always been this inconsistent with strike zones, or has calling balls and strikes correctly become worse over time?  Technology allows us to see the mistakes so easily now whereas, in the past, we didn't know if umpires missed the number of calls that are missed now.


If someone wants to know enough, the tech exists that would allow them to go back to old games. It might not be as price as today because we have more camera angles and other things, but it would probably be a good estimate.



My gut says that it's probably not significantly different, percentage-wise, but it could be. Today's technology, combined with every game being covered holds umpires more accountable than decades ago. We went forever before games were televised to mass audiences.



Dave was talking with Elroy Face about this just the other day. ;)
Surgnbuck
Posts: 11980
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:42 pm

NL Division Series - Dodgers vs Giants

Post by Surgnbuck »

1124333338013333383F33560 wrote: You're full of questions.  Tell you what.  Rather than asking me, tell us what YOUR opinion is, and I'll let you know if I agree.



We have been through this before, more than once, and answers have never been clear.  I've asked your questions before, recently.



"Competitive" is arbitrary.  Means different things to different people...often, at different times.



Is it "competitive" during games (.500?)



Is it, "competitive" for the division titles that we've failed to win for 30 years?



Is it "competitive" for reaching the playoffs (Wild Card?)



Is it "competitive"for the NL Pennant (which means success flooring the playoffs?)



Is it "competitive" for the World Championship?



I've been consistent.  My objective is to reach the NLCS.  I have never expected the team to win the World Series under current conditions.



In MLB as in most other sports, there is distinct difference between the teams that finish 9th and 10th (eliminated during the WCG) and the champion.



The Blue Jays were entertaining.  They were nowhere to be found when it matters.



The addition of the second wild card makes 25 teams think that they're "competitive" leading to the TDL.  For many fans, being in the final 10 is good enough to satisfy them.



On August 1, The season is a long way from over.  It's a long way from being over on October 1.




I totally knew you would Perry Mason the question, and not actually answer it.
GreenWeenie
Posts: 4012
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm

NL Division Series - Dodgers vs Giants

Post by GreenWeenie »

You haven't either.



Some team's going to finish 11th every year.  So, the Maple Leafs are on the outside looking in with the rest of the Non-Competitives.



If someone is talking about being competitive for the second wild card, they were.



If they're talking about teams that were competitive for anything beyond that, they weren't.





Tell me, Johnny Cochran, what glove fits in your mind?
Bobster21

NL Division Series - Dodgers vs Giants

Post by Bobster21 »

665344444F7644444F4844210 wrote: A game like this, you can't have a schlep calling balls and strikes. Bryant strikes out after seeing two balls that were WAYYY out of the zone called strikes.



I hate umpires that make the game about them and their effing strike zones. This clown is awful


This brings up the point again about whether or not umpiring as always been this inconsistent with strike zones, or has calling balls and strikes correctly become worse over time?  Technology allows us to see the mistakes so easily now whereas, in the past, we didn't know if umpires missed the number of calls that are missed now.


If someone wants to know enough, the tech exists that would allow them to go back to old games.  It might not be as price as today because we have more camera angles and other things, but it would probably be a good estimate.



My gut says that it's probably not significantly different, percentage-wise, but it could be.  Today's technology, combined with every game being covered holds umpires more accountable than decades ago.  We went forever before games were televised to mass audiences.



Dave was talking with Elroy Face about this just the other day.  ;)


I think the faster the pitching gets, the harder it is for umps to call balls/strikes with a fraction of a second to see the pitch and decide. You want to get that mental snapshot to make the call but it just comes in too fast now to even do that. A few decades ago throwing in the 90s was fast. Now unless you are mid to high 90s with occasional 100 you're a soft tosser. I just don't think the umps get a good enough look at many of the pitches to call them accurately.



And I've never liked getting a check swing call from the 1B or 3B ump about 100 feet away when the HP ump right there didn't call it. Last night was the perfect example. Clearly, Flores checked his swing. Didn't even look close and the HP ump right there on the spot never budged. He saw that Flores had not swung. So the catcher asks the 1B ump 100 feet away who makes the wrong call because he obviously was too far away to see it correctly. I think check swings should only be called by the HP ump and should be reviewable.



Another problem with asking the base ump for a call on a check swing is a rare situation I've seen maybe twice over the years. With 2 strikes (and less than 3 balls) the batter checks his swing and the ball gets past the catcher as the HP ump calls the pitch a ball. The catcher goes and retrieves the ball and only then appeals to the base ump on the swing. The base ump rules it a swing for strike 3 so the catcher now has the ball and can tag the batter or throw to 1B for the out. The batter could have run to 1B on a strike 3 past the catcher but had no reason to do so because the HP ump called the pitch a ball and did not indicate a swing. They should at least disallow an appeal to the base ump if the catcher fails to hang onto what could be strike 3.
Surgnbuck
Posts: 11980
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:42 pm

NL Division Series - Dodgers vs Giants

Post by Surgnbuck »

Just to be up front, when I complain about the home plate ump and their calls, it isn't those borderline calls or just off that magical line on the television. It's those that are clearly blown.



I wonder, if they just got rid of the box, how much complaining would there be?



But most of all, there is a defined strike zone, and it should be called pretty similarly from one ump to the next.



But with or without the box, the umpires have been in question for as long as I can remember. Like how back when the leagues had their own umps, and one league was thought to give the high strike, the other the low strike. That never made sense to me because a strike is a strike.



That's probably my biggest gripe, the inconsistency from one guy to the next.



One thing about the demand for robo umps....that box we see, is it adjust from one batter to the next? How accurate are those? It could be the umps are doing a great job, but the box is the problem.



But wow, those two pitches to Bryant were huge.
Surgnbuck
Posts: 11980
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:42 pm

NL Division Series - Dodgers vs Giants

Post by Surgnbuck »

566374747F4674747F7874110 wrote: You haven't either.



Some team's going to finish 11th every year.  So, the Maple Leafs are on the outside looking in with the rest of the Non-Competitives.



If someone is talking about being competitive for the second wild card, they were.



If they're talking about teams that were competitive for anything beyond that, they weren't.





Tell me, Johnny Cochran, what glove fits in your mind?
Okay My Cousin Vinny, you totally doubled down on your Perry Mason.



Your take is looking back after the dust settles. Wow, way to go out on a limb.



Competitive isn't about records, because one year 85 wins takes the division, and the next year it takes third or fourth.



Competitive is a game to game thing. If a team lacking in overall talent plays to the best they can, that makes them competitive in that given moment. They force the more talented team to actually play to their talent level, because it's just a couple plays most games, a couple of at bats, that decide the outcome. That's why they actually play the games you know?



Using your looking back at it logic, there would be no need to play a season. In the end, only one team is competitive to you.



Were the Pirates legitimately competing for a division? A Wild Card? Yes. Were they competitive in those pursuits? No. Were they competitive MOST nights? Yes they were. You don't know until it's all over. The Giants were 80-1 on Fanduel. They certainly didn't see a 107 win team, and they're in the business not to make those sort of mistakes.



That's the difference between fans who enjoy the game each day. Each one is its own season. You choose to read the last page of the book, and then critique all the other pages you never read.
WildwoodDave2

NL Division Series - Dodgers vs Giants

Post by WildwoodDave2 »

4F696E7B727E697F771C0 wrote: Just to be up front, when I complain about the home plate ump and their calls, it isn't those borderline calls or just off that magical line on the television. It's those that are clearly blown.



I wonder, if they just got rid of the box, how much complaining would there be?



But most of all, there is a defined strike zone, and it should be called pretty similarly from one ump to the next.



But with or without the box, the umpires have been in question for as long as I can remember. Like how back when the leagues had their own umps, and one league was thought to give the high strike, the other the low strike. That never made sense to me because a strike is a strike.



That's probably my biggest gripe, the inconsistency from one guy to the next.



One thing about the demand for robo umps....that box we see, is it adjust from one batter to the next? How accurate are those? It could be the umps are doing a great job, but the box is the problem.



But wow, those two pitches to Bryant were huge.
I think we just have to accept the fact that there will be always

inconsistencies where humans are concerned

Baseball- balls and strikes, out or safe

Basketball- foul or charge

Football- interference or not

Obviously we don't always like the call. Sometimes as Surg said, it is very blatant. That's just the way it is. That's sports.
GreenWeenie
Posts: 4012
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm

NL Division Series - Dodgers vs Giants

Post by GreenWeenie »

I agree that different win totals take different divisions and in different years.  However, "competitive" allows for those adjustments.



My standard for being competitive is whether I feel that a team has a reasonable chance to win the World Series.  The baseball season is long, as all of us know.  A team that peters out during the RS like the Argonauts did reached the end of discussion.  Entertaining?  Yes.  Not competitive enough to be competitive.  Better luck next year.



We've mowed this lawn several times.  I hold the same opinion that I've always had.  Bob wrote his thoughts on this, and I've leaned more toward his than your's.  He considers the "seasons" to be split- RS, PS.  I don't.



Some teams are built more for the 162 than for the grinds than the three- or four- levels of play among the best competitors.



"Competitive," to me, runs beyond the end of the RS.  Always has, always will.



Competitive during games is nice. It's much more entertaining than losing a ton of games. But, it's not necessarily competitive for the distance that the baseball season is.
WildwoodDave2

NL Division Series - Dodgers vs Giants

Post by WildwoodDave2 »

192C3B3B30093B3B30373B5E0 wrote: I agree that different win totals take different divisions and in different years.  However, "competitive" allows for those adjustments.



My standard for being competitive is whether I feel that a team has a reasonable chance to win the World Series.  The baseball season is long, as all of us know.  A team that peters out during the RS like the Argonauts did reached the end of discussion.  Entertaining?  Yes.  Not competitive enough to be competitive.  Better luck next year.



We've mowed this lawn several times.  I hold the same opinion that I've always had.  Bob wrote his thoughts on this, and I've leaned more toward his than your's.  He considers the "seasons" to be split- RS, PS.  I don't.



Some teams are built more for the 162 than for the grinds than the three- or four- levels of play among the best competitors.



"Competitive," to me, runs beyond the end of the RS.  Always has, always will.



Competitive during games is nice.  It's much more entertaining than losing a ton of games. But, it's not necessarily competitive for the distance that the baseball season is.
One has to have a lawn and a mower as well- that leaves you out
johnfluharty

NL Division Series - Dodgers vs Giants

Post by johnfluharty »

615F5A52415959527257405304360 wrote: I agree that different win totals take different divisions and in different years.  However, "competitive" allows for those adjustments.



My standard for being competitive is whether I feel that a team has a reasonable chance to win the World Series.  The baseball season is long, as all of us know.  A team that peters out during the RS like the Argonauts did reached the end of discussion.  Entertaining?  Yes.  Not competitive enough to be competitive.  Better luck next year.



We've mowed this lawn several times.  I hold the same opinion that I've always had.  Bob wrote his thoughts on this, and I've leaned more toward his than your's.  He considers the "seasons" to be split- RS, PS.  I don't.



Some teams are built more for the 162 than for the grinds than the three- or four- levels of play among the best competitors.



"Competitive," to me, runs beyond the end of the RS.  Always has, always will.



Competitive during games is nice.  It's much more entertaining than losing a ton of games. But, it's not necessarily competitive for the distance that the baseball season is.
One has to have a lawn and a mower as well- that leaves you out


What if he has a lawn and his neighbor's mower?
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