I would be really shocked if Nutting cleaned house and especially if Hurdle was let go. The fans and the media are well informed and know that the real issue is with ownership. To clean house would be looked upon as using scapegoats and not addressing the real issues.
Hurdle has woven himself into the fabric of Pittsburgh. He is very popular in the community. He was a winner for 3 years and most intelligent fans know that no manager could have succeeded this season with the train wreck of a roster that he has had at his disposal.
Now NH on the other hand could be in trouble.
He and his staff have performed poorly in drafting and talent evaluation. He has only had 1 impact player drafted. That was Cole who you would expect to have been an impact player as he was the #1 player drafted overall. Bell may be the second one if he continues his offensive prowess. With the number of losing seasons the Pirates have had you would expect the Farm system to be stronger. Right now the Bucs farm system is rated number 15.
That is not good enough when you consider the draft positions.
One has to look at the Dodgers and question how they can win 6 straight divisions have multiple ROY’s and still have a top 5 Farm system when they are drafting below the Pirates.
Currently the Pirates have only one player in the minors that is being touted as a possible future impact player and that is Oneil Cruz.
NH has made some good trades (Vazquez, Reynolds, Crick, Cruz) but the Archer trade may be the lightening rod that seals his fate.
Will heads roll?
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Will heads roll?
6B4E4D4D58734E464453210 wrote:
Hurdle has woven himself into the fabric of Pittsburgh. He is very popular in the community. He was a winner for 3 years and most intelligent fans know that no manager could have succeeded this season with the train wreck of a roster that he has had at his disposal.
Now NH on the other hand could be in trouble.
He and his staff have performed poorly in drafting and talent evaluation. He has only had 1 impact player drafted. That was Cole who you would expect to have been an impact player as he was the #1 player drafted overall. Bell may be the second one if he continues his offensive prowess. With the number of losing seasons the Pirates have had you would expect the Farm system to be stronger. Right now the Bucs farm system is rated number 15.
That is not good enough when you consider the draft positions.
One has to look at the Dodgers and question how they can win 6 straight divisions have multiple ROY’s and still have a top 5 Farm system when they are drafting below the Pirates.
Currently the Pirates have only one player in the minors that is being touted as a possible future impact player and that is Oneil Cruz.
NH has made some good trades (Vazquez, Reynolds, Crick, Cruz) but the Archer trade may be the lightening rod that seals his fate.
In this case, I think the new GM should get to hire his own coaches. Maybe he would stick with Hurdle, but I don't think so.
Hurdle has woven himself into the fabric of Pittsburgh. He is very popular in the community. He was a winner for 3 years and most intelligent fans know that no manager could have succeeded this season with the train wreck of a roster that he has had at his disposal.
Now NH on the other hand could be in trouble.
He and his staff have performed poorly in drafting and talent evaluation. He has only had 1 impact player drafted. That was Cole who you would expect to have been an impact player as he was the #1 player drafted overall. Bell may be the second one if he continues his offensive prowess. With the number of losing seasons the Pirates have had you would expect the Farm system to be stronger. Right now the Bucs farm system is rated number 15.
That is not good enough when you consider the draft positions.
One has to look at the Dodgers and question how they can win 6 straight divisions have multiple ROY’s and still have a top 5 Farm system when they are drafting below the Pirates.
Currently the Pirates have only one player in the minors that is being touted as a possible future impact player and that is Oneil Cruz.
NH has made some good trades (Vazquez, Reynolds, Crick, Cruz) but the Archer trade may be the lightening rod that seals his fate.
In this case, I think the new GM should get to hire his own coaches. Maybe he would stick with Hurdle, but I don't think so.
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DemDog
Will heads roll?
00272C0F420 wrote:
Hurdle has woven himself into the fabric of Pittsburgh. He is very popular in the community. He was a winner for 3 years and most intelligent fans know that no manager could have succeeded this season with the train wreck of a roster that he has had at his disposal.
Now NH on the other hand could be in trouble.
He and his staff have performed poorly in drafting and talent evaluation. He has only had 1 impact player drafted. That was Cole who you would expect to have been an impact player as he was the #1 player drafted overall. Bell may be the second one if he continues his offensive prowess. With the number of losing seasons the Pirates have had you would expect the Farm system to be stronger. Right now the Bucs farm system is rated number 15.
That is not good enough when you consider the draft positions.
One has to look at the Dodgers and question how they can win 6 straight divisions have multiple ROY’s and still have a top 5 Farm system when they are drafting below the Pirates.
Currently the Pirates have only one player in the minors that is being touted as a possible future impact player and that is Oneil Cruz.
NH has made some good trades (Vazquez, Reynolds, Crick, Cruz) but the Archer trade may be the lightening rod that seals his fate.
In this case, I think the new GM should get to hire his own coaches. Maybe he would stick with Hurdle, but I don't think so.
It needs to go further than just chopping of NH head and the coaches. Clint, nice guy that he is has to go too. If I am a new GM of the Pirates I want my guy and his guys running the team. About the only coaches I keep are the hitting coaches. Seems they have had some success with some of our underwhelming hitters.
Hurdle has woven himself into the fabric of Pittsburgh. He is very popular in the community. He was a winner for 3 years and most intelligent fans know that no manager could have succeeded this season with the train wreck of a roster that he has had at his disposal.
Now NH on the other hand could be in trouble.
He and his staff have performed poorly in drafting and talent evaluation. He has only had 1 impact player drafted. That was Cole who you would expect to have been an impact player as he was the #1 player drafted overall. Bell may be the second one if he continues his offensive prowess. With the number of losing seasons the Pirates have had you would expect the Farm system to be stronger. Right now the Bucs farm system is rated number 15.
That is not good enough when you consider the draft positions.
One has to look at the Dodgers and question how they can win 6 straight divisions have multiple ROY’s and still have a top 5 Farm system when they are drafting below the Pirates.
Currently the Pirates have only one player in the minors that is being touted as a possible future impact player and that is Oneil Cruz.
NH has made some good trades (Vazquez, Reynolds, Crick, Cruz) but the Archer trade may be the lightening rod that seals his fate.
In this case, I think the new GM should get to hire his own coaches. Maybe he would stick with Hurdle, but I don't think so.
It needs to go further than just chopping of NH head and the coaches. Clint, nice guy that he is has to go too. If I am a new GM of the Pirates I want my guy and his guys running the team. About the only coaches I keep are the hitting coaches. Seems they have had some success with some of our underwhelming hitters.
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Bobster21
Will heads roll?
Archer's last 2 starts have been good but he's due either 9 million next year or a buyout of 1.75 mil. Nutting won't want to pay the 9 mil if Archer struggles thru the rest of the season. And if they buy him out after trading those 3 guys for him, it will be a total failure for NH. So it would be hard to keep NH and tell the fans he will build a strong team if they are reeling from a disastrous Archer trade. On the other hand if Archer finishes strong, they will likely pay the 9 mil and save face on the trade. That should save NH's job. So I think there are 2 factors for NH's job security: Archer's status for next year and the new TV deal if the network would pay more for a more well run team-which could mean canning NH prior to the new TV deal. Hurdle might be made a scapegoat if NH is kept. But a new GM might want his own mgr. So Hurdle is on thin ice either way. In his favor is that he has 2 more years on his contract (as does NH) and Nutting won't want to pay one or both after he fires them. But if Archer struggles thru the season and they save 7.25 mil on him next year, it might compensate for paying CH and/of NH after they are fired.
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GermanTownship
Will heads roll?
I added my “two cents” in another response to where the problems are. It starts at the top (Nutting). But again, we all know that he will never sell the team. But, in my opinion, I feel that even though the scouting department has been able to select players in the draft ahead of teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, and Cardinals, plus other very good teams, why is it that they have, and always seem to have a much stronger farm system? That is where the major overhaul needs to be. How did the Astros get better? They hired people in the Cardinals front office to select amateur players. Another example of a team that became good after they changed the G.M (Epstein), along with the scouting department, the Cubs. Go to the successful teams and see if there front office people are willing to come here. Is Nutting willing to basically replace the current scouting department? Also, much discussion has been made about why pitchers that don’t do well here, all of a sudden become very good when they go elsewhere. The pitch to contact is not working. Even Archer is doing much better. The coaches are allowing him to pitch to his strengths. Bobster and Possum, what do you think? The reason why I am asking you is that I also go back to 1960. I am thoroughly disgusted about the current state of the Pirates. If we have to trade players over the winter like Marte and Vasquez, let’s make sure that we get top level prospects for them. But, in order to do so, the problems are with the current general manager and the scouting department. I’m not blaming Hurdle for this mess. The greatest manager in the history of baseball could not save this team.
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Bobster21
Will heads roll?
2507100F030C360D150C110A0B12620 wrote: I added my “two cents” in another response to where the problems are. It starts at the top (Nutting). But again, we all know that he will never sell the team. But, in my opinion, I feel that even though the scouting department has been able to select players in the draft ahead of teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, and Cardinals, plus other very good teams, why is it that they have, and always seem to have a much stronger farm system? That is where the major overhaul needs to be. How did the Astros get better? They hired people in the Cardinals front office to select amateur players. Another example of a team that became good after they changed the G.M (Epstein), along with the scouting department, the Cubs. Go to the successful teams and see if there front office people are willing to come here. Is Nutting willing to basically replace the current scouting department? Also, much discussion has been made about why pitchers that don’t do well here, all of a sudden become very good when they go elsewhere. The pitch to contact is not working. Even Archer is doing much better. The coaches are allowing him to pitch to his strengths. Bobster and Possum, what do you think? The reason why I am asking you is that I also go back to 1960. I am thoroughly disgusted about the current state of the Pirates. If we have to trade players over the winter like Marte and Vasquez, let’s make sure that we get top level prospects for them. But, in order to do so, the problems are with the current general manager and the scouting department. I’m not blaming Hurdle for this mess. The greatest manager in the history of baseball could not save this team.
I agree with you. There seems to be plenty of evidence that the organization is weak in drafting and developing players. And since that is how they try to compensate for Nutting's refusal to pay market value for productive players, the plan is a failure with little reason to believe the people in charge can do any better in the future. Making things worse is that NH is weak in evaluating what they have. Trading Luplow to get Gonzalez when he already had Newman (a #1 draft pick) because he didn't believe in Newman was a waste of Luplow. Trading Meadows, Glasnow and Baz for a fading Archer was ridiculous. Trading McGuire (now with Blue Jays) and Ramirez (now with Marlins) to dump Liriano's salary was shameful. And they'll probably be looking for a new catcher next year. I also don't think much of Hurdle. I think they do worse than they should under Hurdle but even a good mgr couldn't turn mud into gold.
But the other part of this is that Nutting seems to be running a profitable business and has no need to make changes unless he sees his profit decreasing. He clearly doesn't mind overseeing a poor product on the field and is unlikely to make changes just to win more often unless he needs to do so to maintain his profit margin.
I agree with you. There seems to be plenty of evidence that the organization is weak in drafting and developing players. And since that is how they try to compensate for Nutting's refusal to pay market value for productive players, the plan is a failure with little reason to believe the people in charge can do any better in the future. Making things worse is that NH is weak in evaluating what they have. Trading Luplow to get Gonzalez when he already had Newman (a #1 draft pick) because he didn't believe in Newman was a waste of Luplow. Trading Meadows, Glasnow and Baz for a fading Archer was ridiculous. Trading McGuire (now with Blue Jays) and Ramirez (now with Marlins) to dump Liriano's salary was shameful. And they'll probably be looking for a new catcher next year. I also don't think much of Hurdle. I think they do worse than they should under Hurdle but even a good mgr couldn't turn mud into gold.
But the other part of this is that Nutting seems to be running a profitable business and has no need to make changes unless he sees his profit decreasing. He clearly doesn't mind overseeing a poor product on the field and is unlikely to make changes just to win more often unless he needs to do so to maintain his profit margin.
Will heads roll?
1B3E3D3D28033E363423510 wrote: I would be really shocked if Nutting cleaned house and especially if Hurdle was let go. The fans and the media are well informed and know that the real issue is with ownership. To clean house would be looked upon as using scapegoats and not addressing the real issues.
Hurdle has woven himself into the fabric of Pittsburgh. He is very popular in the community. He was a winner for 3 years and most intelligent fans know that no manager could have succeeded this season with the train wreck of a roster that he has had at his disposal.
Now NH on the other hand could be in trouble.
He and his staff have performed poorly in drafting and talent evaluation. He has only had 1 impact player drafted. That was Cole who you would expect to have been an impact player as he was the #1 player drafted overall. Bell may be the second one if he continues his offensive prowess. With the number of losing seasons the Pirates have had you would expect the Farm system to be stronger. Right now the Bucs farm system is rated number 15.
That is not good enough when you consider the draft positions.
One has to look at the Dodgers and question how they can win 6 straight divisions have multiple ROY’s and still have a top 5 Farm system when they are drafting below the Pirates.
Currently the Pirates have only one player in the minors that is being touted as a possible future impact player and that is Oneil Cruz.
NH has made some good trades (Vazquez, Reynolds, Crick, Cruz) but the Archer trade may be the lightening rod that seals his fate.
Still don't believe Nutting will can NH. The Archer deal won't be the thing that cans him, but it should be. He gave the price for Archer four years ago, not a guy on the decline. That is a heavy price to pay for a pitcher on the decline despite having controllable years. I think a major problem for me - another one was not trading Josh Harrison prior to his last year in Pittsburgh. There were a few teams interested, but NH was so into gettin Brandon Nimmo from the Mets, he wouldn't even listen to anything else. Harrison was just released from Detroit a few days ago.
Hurdle has woven himself into the fabric of Pittsburgh. He is very popular in the community. He was a winner for 3 years and most intelligent fans know that no manager could have succeeded this season with the train wreck of a roster that he has had at his disposal.
Now NH on the other hand could be in trouble.
He and his staff have performed poorly in drafting and talent evaluation. He has only had 1 impact player drafted. That was Cole who you would expect to have been an impact player as he was the #1 player drafted overall. Bell may be the second one if he continues his offensive prowess. With the number of losing seasons the Pirates have had you would expect the Farm system to be stronger. Right now the Bucs farm system is rated number 15.
That is not good enough when you consider the draft positions.
One has to look at the Dodgers and question how they can win 6 straight divisions have multiple ROY’s and still have a top 5 Farm system when they are drafting below the Pirates.
Currently the Pirates have only one player in the minors that is being touted as a possible future impact player and that is Oneil Cruz.
NH has made some good trades (Vazquez, Reynolds, Crick, Cruz) but the Archer trade may be the lightening rod that seals his fate.
Still don't believe Nutting will can NH. The Archer deal won't be the thing that cans him, but it should be. He gave the price for Archer four years ago, not a guy on the decline. That is a heavy price to pay for a pitcher on the decline despite having controllable years. I think a major problem for me - another one was not trading Josh Harrison prior to his last year in Pittsburgh. There were a few teams interested, but NH was so into gettin Brandon Nimmo from the Mets, he wouldn't even listen to anything else. Harrison was just released from Detroit a few days ago.
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ArnoldRothstein
Will heads roll?
Okay, so 23 of 27 now. The 1998 club finished the season losing 25 of 30. Is that the gold standard?
Edit: remarkably, the 1998 club went 12-2 in August immediately before things went south.
Edit: remarkably, the 1998 club went 12-2 in August immediately before things went south.
Will heads roll?
50637F7E7D75437E6579626574787F110 wrote: Okay, so 23 of 27 now. The 1998 club finished the season losing 25 of 30. Is that the gold standard?
Edit: remarkably, the 1998 club went 12-2 in August immediately before things went south.
Twenty seven games is 1/6 of a season. They just played 1/6 of a season and won 4 games. Without looking it up, this has to be one of the worst losing streaks in MLB history.
And nobody has been fired. There have been no consequences.
Edit: remarkably, the 1998 club went 12-2 in August immediately before things went south.
Twenty seven games is 1/6 of a season. They just played 1/6 of a season and won 4 games. Without looking it up, this has to be one of the worst losing streaks in MLB history.
And nobody has been fired. There have been no consequences.
Will heads roll?
I could easily see Hurdle electing to retire, with corresponding changes to his staff.