Much of what I've read lately on the forum especially in game threads is a criticism of the Pirates play in terms of enthusiasm. I watch almost all of the games on TV (I live in Florida) and quite honestly I haven't noticed any lack of enthusiasm on the part of the players.
I have seen bone-headed plays recently by Jaso and Mercer that were clearly a lack of concentration or focus. I've seen Cutch and Kang struggling mightily in their ABs and swings at pitches a foot outside of the strike zone. I've seen poor offensive, defensive, pitching and base running performances on a regular basis in 2016 as I have every year since I started following the Pirates in 1958 including championship seasons in 1960, 1971 and 1979.
What I've seen has been a few more poor performances this year than in the past 3 seasons which has resulted in a poorer W-L record. I can't say with any certainty that I've seen a dip in the player's enthusiasm. Sure Cutch and Kang have not been ebullient but the former is suffering through an historically noteworthy worst season of his professional career, and the latter is living under the cloud of a felony criminal charge that could end his career and possibly his freedom. What I've seen from both of them is more stoicism than lack of enthusiasm. They both seem to me to be trying very hard (maybe too hard?)
I ask those of you who have written about the lack of enthusiasm to consider that as fans we may be projecting our own lack of enthusiasm for this 2016 team and its many disappointments onto the players. Is it really lack of enthusiasm that's being observed or just poorer performance than we've become accustomed to?
Enthusiasm vs Performance
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Enthusiasm vs Performance
1B3F2B23264A0 wrote: Much of what I've read lately on the forum especially in game threads is a criticism of the Pirates play in terms of enthusiasm. I watch almost all of the games on TV (I live in Florida) and quite honestly I haven't noticed any lack of enthusiasm on the part of the players.
I have seen bone-headed plays recently by Jaso and Mercer that were clearly a lack of concentration or focus. I've seen Cutch and Kang struggling mightily in their ABs and swings at pitches a foot outside of the strike zone. I've seen poor offensive, defensive, pitching and base running performances on a regular basis in 2016 as I have every year since I started following the Pirates in 1958 including championship seasons in 1960, 1971 and 1979.
What I've seen has been a few more poor performances this year than in the past 3 seasons which has resulted in a poorer W-L record. I can't say with any certainty that I've seen a dip in the player's enthusiasm. Sure Cutch and Kang have not been ebullient but the former is suffering through an historically noteworthy worst season of his professional career, and the latter is living under the cloud of a felony criminal charge that could end his career and possibly his freedom. What I've seen from both of them is more stoicism than lack of enthusiasm. They both seem to me to be trying very hard (maybe too hard?)
I ask those of you who have written about the lack of enthusiasm to consider that as fans we may be projecting our own lack of enthusiasm for this 2016 team and its many disappointments onto the players. Is it really lack of enthusiasm that's being observed or just poorer performance than we've become accustomed to?
I see lack of enthusiasm in the focus of the players in the game.
They are playing like thier heads aren't in the game.
In Tuesday game alone, you've got JHay getting picked off, Mercer getting picked off, Cutch taking a terrible route that lead to runs, and Jaso getting thrown out at the plate on a double high off the wall..... And that's in a game where we win.
Last night, Bastardo and Fryer brain farted and gave up a run on an easy out.
If these were isolated incidents, I'd just shrug it off, but I've just named six different Pirates, fully 25% of the team, that have boned up in the last 48 hours.
Please note, I'm not ragging on errors. These happen in the game of baseball, it 's stupid but it is what is. I'm looking at things that truly show a players is somewhere else.
Case in point: Reds pitcher walks the bases loaded on Sunday and Mercer swings at the FIRST pitch....... What the what?????
I'm tired of what I see as poor effort baseball. Marte giving Broxton a triple to left field, or The guy in Milwaukee scoring from first on a steal attempt.
We've been playing this way since May.
Maybe I need to hear that Cutch turned over the post game spread to make me feel better, but I feel like a lot of players are playing like it's the last game of a ten day west coast trip.
I have seen bone-headed plays recently by Jaso and Mercer that were clearly a lack of concentration or focus. I've seen Cutch and Kang struggling mightily in their ABs and swings at pitches a foot outside of the strike zone. I've seen poor offensive, defensive, pitching and base running performances on a regular basis in 2016 as I have every year since I started following the Pirates in 1958 including championship seasons in 1960, 1971 and 1979.
What I've seen has been a few more poor performances this year than in the past 3 seasons which has resulted in a poorer W-L record. I can't say with any certainty that I've seen a dip in the player's enthusiasm. Sure Cutch and Kang have not been ebullient but the former is suffering through an historically noteworthy worst season of his professional career, and the latter is living under the cloud of a felony criminal charge that could end his career and possibly his freedom. What I've seen from both of them is more stoicism than lack of enthusiasm. They both seem to me to be trying very hard (maybe too hard?)
I ask those of you who have written about the lack of enthusiasm to consider that as fans we may be projecting our own lack of enthusiasm for this 2016 team and its many disappointments onto the players. Is it really lack of enthusiasm that's being observed or just poorer performance than we've become accustomed to?
I see lack of enthusiasm in the focus of the players in the game.
They are playing like thier heads aren't in the game.
In Tuesday game alone, you've got JHay getting picked off, Mercer getting picked off, Cutch taking a terrible route that lead to runs, and Jaso getting thrown out at the plate on a double high off the wall..... And that's in a game where we win.
Last night, Bastardo and Fryer brain farted and gave up a run on an easy out.
If these were isolated incidents, I'd just shrug it off, but I've just named six different Pirates, fully 25% of the team, that have boned up in the last 48 hours.
Please note, I'm not ragging on errors. These happen in the game of baseball, it 's stupid but it is what is. I'm looking at things that truly show a players is somewhere else.
Case in point: Reds pitcher walks the bases loaded on Sunday and Mercer swings at the FIRST pitch....... What the what?????
I'm tired of what I see as poor effort baseball. Marte giving Broxton a triple to left field, or The guy in Milwaukee scoring from first on a steal attempt.
We've been playing this way since May.
Maybe I need to hear that Cutch turned over the post game spread to make me feel better, but I feel like a lot of players are playing like it's the last game of a ten day west coast trip.
-
Bobster21
Enthusiasm vs Performance
112C2B312C2B450 wrote: Much of what I've read lately on the forum especially in game threads is a criticism of the Pirates play in terms of enthusiasm. I watch almost all of the games on TV (I live in Florida) and quite honestly I haven't noticed any lack of enthusiasm on the part of the players.
I have seen bone-headed plays recently by Jaso and Mercer that were clearly a lack of concentration or focus. I've seen Cutch and Kang struggling mightily in their ABs and swings at pitches a foot outside of the strike zone. I've seen poor offensive, defensive, pitching and base running performances on a regular basis in 2016 as I have every year since I started following the Pirates in 1958 including championship seasons in 1960, 1971 and 1979.
What I've seen has been a few more poor performances this year than in the past 3 seasons which has resulted in a poorer W-L record. I can't say with any certainty that I've seen a dip in the player's enthusiasm. Sure Cutch and Kang have not been ebullient but the former is suffering through an historically noteworthy worst season of his professional career, and the latter is living under the cloud of a felony criminal charge that could end his career and possibly his freedom. What I've seen from both of them is more stoicism than lack of enthusiasm. They both seem to me to be trying very hard (maybe too hard?)
I ask those of you who have written about the lack of enthusiasm to consider that as fans we may be projecting our own lack of enthusiasm for this 2016 team and its many disappointments onto the players. Is it really lack of enthusiasm that's being observed or just poorer performance than we've become accustomed to?
I see lack of enthusiasm in the focus of the players in the game.
They are playing like thier heads aren't in the game.
In Tuesday game alone, you've got JHay getting picked off, Mercer getting picked off, Cutch taking a terrible route that lead to runs, and Jaso getting thrown out at the plate on a double high off the wall..... And that's in a game where we win.
Last night, Bastardo and Fryer brain farted and gave up a run on an easy out.
If these were isolated incidents, I'd just shrug it off, but I've just named six different Pirates, fully 25% of the team, that have boned up in the last 48 hours.
Please note, I'm not ragging on errors. These happen in the game of baseball, it 's stupid but it is what is. I'm looking at things that truly show a players is somewhere else.
Case in point: Reds pitcher walks the bases loaded on Sunday and Mercer swings at the FIRST pitch....... What the what?????
I'm tired of what I see as poor effort baseball. Marte giving Broxton a triple to left field, or The guy in Milwaukee scoring from first on a steal attempt.
We've been playing this way since May.
Maybe I need to hear that Cutch turned over the post game spread to make me feel better, but I feel like a lot of players are playing like it's the last game of a ten day west coast trip.
I agree. To Quail's point, no, I don't see guys loafing other than Jaso (twice). But I agree with Tintin that enthusiasm (or lack thereof) shows up in other ways. Baseball is a very cerebral game. You always have to be analyzing the situation before a pitch is thrown. We're seeing poor baseball often as a result of players not appearing to be prepared to make the right play.
I have seen bone-headed plays recently by Jaso and Mercer that were clearly a lack of concentration or focus. I've seen Cutch and Kang struggling mightily in their ABs and swings at pitches a foot outside of the strike zone. I've seen poor offensive, defensive, pitching and base running performances on a regular basis in 2016 as I have every year since I started following the Pirates in 1958 including championship seasons in 1960, 1971 and 1979.
What I've seen has been a few more poor performances this year than in the past 3 seasons which has resulted in a poorer W-L record. I can't say with any certainty that I've seen a dip in the player's enthusiasm. Sure Cutch and Kang have not been ebullient but the former is suffering through an historically noteworthy worst season of his professional career, and the latter is living under the cloud of a felony criminal charge that could end his career and possibly his freedom. What I've seen from both of them is more stoicism than lack of enthusiasm. They both seem to me to be trying very hard (maybe too hard?)
I ask those of you who have written about the lack of enthusiasm to consider that as fans we may be projecting our own lack of enthusiasm for this 2016 team and its many disappointments onto the players. Is it really lack of enthusiasm that's being observed or just poorer performance than we've become accustomed to?
I see lack of enthusiasm in the focus of the players in the game.
They are playing like thier heads aren't in the game.
In Tuesday game alone, you've got JHay getting picked off, Mercer getting picked off, Cutch taking a terrible route that lead to runs, and Jaso getting thrown out at the plate on a double high off the wall..... And that's in a game where we win.
Last night, Bastardo and Fryer brain farted and gave up a run on an easy out.
If these were isolated incidents, I'd just shrug it off, but I've just named six different Pirates, fully 25% of the team, that have boned up in the last 48 hours.
Please note, I'm not ragging on errors. These happen in the game of baseball, it 's stupid but it is what is. I'm looking at things that truly show a players is somewhere else.
Case in point: Reds pitcher walks the bases loaded on Sunday and Mercer swings at the FIRST pitch....... What the what?????
I'm tired of what I see as poor effort baseball. Marte giving Broxton a triple to left field, or The guy in Milwaukee scoring from first on a steal attempt.
We've been playing this way since May.
Maybe I need to hear that Cutch turned over the post game spread to make me feel better, but I feel like a lot of players are playing like it's the last game of a ten day west coast trip.
I agree. To Quail's point, no, I don't see guys loafing other than Jaso (twice). But I agree with Tintin that enthusiasm (or lack thereof) shows up in other ways. Baseball is a very cerebral game. You always have to be analyzing the situation before a pitch is thrown. We're seeing poor baseball often as a result of players not appearing to be prepared to make the right play.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Enthusiasm vs Performance
Enthusiam is probably not the right word. Effort, mental approach and selflessness would be the things I would be looking for. And I see a lot lacking in each of the three areas.
The OF has definitely lacked effort at times this season, critical "errors". Just this week I've watched two baserunners turn singles into doubles that Cutch was slow getting into the infield. Tintin mentioned Marte. When was the last time we watch Cutch burn a double into a triple? How many stolen bases have the Pirates given up with even making a throw? I'd say most games have moments that I think "effort is lacking".
Mental approach - Too many to even mention. Getting picked off 1st in the bottom of the 9th? Standing in the batters box joking with the catch as your being thrown out at 1st? Kang simply not the same player.
Selfishness - worst example I've seen is Mercer swing at the 1st pitch against the Reds with no outs after the Reds had walked the bases loaded. The Pirates could have won that game in that inning, but didn't score a run. The team afraid to move Cutch - he should walk in and offer to move down.
One or more of these areas pops up in most games anymore it seems to me.
The OF has definitely lacked effort at times this season, critical "errors". Just this week I've watched two baserunners turn singles into doubles that Cutch was slow getting into the infield. Tintin mentioned Marte. When was the last time we watch Cutch burn a double into a triple? How many stolen bases have the Pirates given up with even making a throw? I'd say most games have moments that I think "effort is lacking".
Mental approach - Too many to even mention. Getting picked off 1st in the bottom of the 9th? Standing in the batters box joking with the catch as your being thrown out at 1st? Kang simply not the same player.
Selfishness - worst example I've seen is Mercer swing at the 1st pitch against the Reds with no outs after the Reds had walked the bases loaded. The Pirates could have won that game in that inning, but didn't score a run. The team afraid to move Cutch - he should walk in and offer to move down.
One or more of these areas pops up in most games anymore it seems to me.
Enthusiasm vs Performance
5F584E46485F18146D4A404C4441034E42402D0 wrote: Enthusiam is probably not the right word. Effort, mental approach and selflessness would be the things I would be looking for. And I see a lot lacking in each of the three areas.
The OF has definitely lacked effort at times this season, critical "errors". Just this week I've watched two baserunners turn singles into doubles that Cutch was slow getting into the infield. Tintin mentioned Marte. When was the last time we watch Cutch burn a double into a triple? How many stolen bases have the Pirates given up with even making a throw? I'd say most games have moments that I think "effort is lacking".
Mental approach - Too many to even mention. Getting picked off 1st in the bottom of the 9th? Standing in the batters box joking with the catch as your being thrown out at 1st? Kang simply not the same player.
Selfishness - worst example I've seen is Mercer swing at the 1st pitch against the Reds with no outs after the Reds had walked the bases loaded. The Pirates could have won that game in that inning, but didn't score a run. The team afraid to move Cutch - he should walk in and offer to move down.
One or more of these areas pops up in most games anymore it seems to me.
these are good examples and have to wonder if Clint is talking to individuals about it or what. These are examples of things that have to be addressed by manager. Clint may be doing it and we would never know unless a player brought it up.
The OF has definitely lacked effort at times this season, critical "errors". Just this week I've watched two baserunners turn singles into doubles that Cutch was slow getting into the infield. Tintin mentioned Marte. When was the last time we watch Cutch burn a double into a triple? How many stolen bases have the Pirates given up with even making a throw? I'd say most games have moments that I think "effort is lacking".
Mental approach - Too many to even mention. Getting picked off 1st in the bottom of the 9th? Standing in the batters box joking with the catch as your being thrown out at 1st? Kang simply not the same player.
Selfishness - worst example I've seen is Mercer swing at the 1st pitch against the Reds with no outs after the Reds had walked the bases loaded. The Pirates could have won that game in that inning, but didn't score a run. The team afraid to move Cutch - he should walk in and offer to move down.
One or more of these areas pops up in most games anymore it seems to me.
these are good examples and have to wonder if Clint is talking to individuals about it or what. These are examples of things that have to be addressed by manager. Clint may be doing it and we would never know unless a player brought it up.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
Enthusiasm vs Performance
Hurdle was asked after the game on Wednesday about the last time they went over drills. Hurdle said they had infield and outfield practice this week and on the last series too. He didn't seem happy with the questioning, but said they just didn't execute.
Enthusiasm vs Performance
3532242C2235727E07202A262E2B6924282A470 wrote: Enthusiam is probably not the right word. Effort, mental approach and selflessness would be the things I would be looking for. And I see a lot lacking in each of the three areas.
The OF has definitely lacked effort at times this season, critical "errors". Just this week I've watched two baserunners turn singles into doubles that Cutch was slow getting into the infield. Tintin mentioned Marte. When was the last time we watch Cutch burn a double into a triple? How many stolen bases have the Pirates given up with even making a throw? I'd say most games have moments that I think "effort is lacking".
Mental approach - Too many to even mention. Getting picked off 1st in the bottom of the 9th? Standing in the batters box joking with the catch as your being thrown out at 1st? Kang simply not the same player.
Selfishness - worst example I've seen is Mercer swing at the 1st pitch against the Reds with no outs after the Reds had walked the bases loaded. The Pirates could have won that game in that inning, but didn't score a run. The team afraid to move Cutch - he should walk in and offer to move down.
One or more of these areas pops up in most games anymore it seems to me.
The word I used before the trade deadline was nonchalant.
It's like they think their talent will get them over without actually making it happen.
I feel like we're watching the all those playoff Braves teams. All those guys kept waiting for other people to get the big hit or make the big play...and it never happened. They went through the motions expecting their talent to win them games....and it never happened. This is what I'm seeing.
The OF has definitely lacked effort at times this season, critical "errors". Just this week I've watched two baserunners turn singles into doubles that Cutch was slow getting into the infield. Tintin mentioned Marte. When was the last time we watch Cutch burn a double into a triple? How many stolen bases have the Pirates given up with even making a throw? I'd say most games have moments that I think "effort is lacking".
Mental approach - Too many to even mention. Getting picked off 1st in the bottom of the 9th? Standing in the batters box joking with the catch as your being thrown out at 1st? Kang simply not the same player.
Selfishness - worst example I've seen is Mercer swing at the 1st pitch against the Reds with no outs after the Reds had walked the bases loaded. The Pirates could have won that game in that inning, but didn't score a run. The team afraid to move Cutch - he should walk in and offer to move down.
One or more of these areas pops up in most games anymore it seems to me.
The word I used before the trade deadline was nonchalant.
It's like they think their talent will get them over without actually making it happen.
I feel like we're watching the all those playoff Braves teams. All those guys kept waiting for other people to get the big hit or make the big play...and it never happened. They went through the motions expecting their talent to win them games....and it never happened. This is what I'm seeing.
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Enthusiasm vs Performance
714C4B514C4B250 wrote: Enthusiam is probably not the right word. Effort, mental approach and selflessness would be the things I would be looking for. And I see a lot lacking in each of the three areas.
The OF has definitely lacked effort at times this season, critical "errors". Just this week I've watched two baserunners turn singles into doubles that Cutch was slow getting into the infield. Tintin mentioned Marte. When was the last time we watch Cutch burn a double into a triple? How many stolen bases have the Pirates given up with even making a throw? I'd say most games have moments that I think "effort is lacking".
Mental approach - Too many to even mention. Getting picked off 1st in the bottom of the 9th? Standing in the batters box joking with the catch as your being thrown out at 1st? Kang simply not the same player.
Selfishness - worst example I've seen is Mercer swing at the 1st pitch against the Reds with no outs after the Reds had walked the bases loaded. The Pirates could have won that game in that inning, but didn't score a run. The team afraid to move Cutch - he should walk in and offer to move down.
One or more of these areas pops up in most games anymore it seems to me.
The word I used before the trade deadline was nonchalant.
It's like they think their talent will get them over without actually making it happen.
I feel like we're watching the all those playoff Braves teams. All those guys kept waiting for other people to get the big hit or make the big play...and it never happened. They went through the motions expecting their talent to win them games....and it never happened. This is what I'm seeing.
I posted this in the game thread, but it belongs here as well: David Freese admitted as much after yesterday's game. His exact quote:"yesterday we were a little sluggish. We talked about it today and made a point to bring it today, have a little energy. That"s what everybody's looking for and we wanted to bring it into the field."
Maybe that's different then nonchalant but it speaks to the sane thing. Whatever the reason, this team has not played with a passion they've had in the past. And I hate that so many new guys are being shown this clubhouse.
The OF has definitely lacked effort at times this season, critical "errors". Just this week I've watched two baserunners turn singles into doubles that Cutch was slow getting into the infield. Tintin mentioned Marte. When was the last time we watch Cutch burn a double into a triple? How many stolen bases have the Pirates given up with even making a throw? I'd say most games have moments that I think "effort is lacking".
Mental approach - Too many to even mention. Getting picked off 1st in the bottom of the 9th? Standing in the batters box joking with the catch as your being thrown out at 1st? Kang simply not the same player.
Selfishness - worst example I've seen is Mercer swing at the 1st pitch against the Reds with no outs after the Reds had walked the bases loaded. The Pirates could have won that game in that inning, but didn't score a run. The team afraid to move Cutch - he should walk in and offer to move down.
One or more of these areas pops up in most games anymore it seems to me.
The word I used before the trade deadline was nonchalant.
It's like they think their talent will get them over without actually making it happen.
I feel like we're watching the all those playoff Braves teams. All those guys kept waiting for other people to get the big hit or make the big play...and it never happened. They went through the motions expecting their talent to win them games....and it never happened. This is what I'm seeing.
I posted this in the game thread, but it belongs here as well: David Freese admitted as much after yesterday's game. His exact quote:"yesterday we were a little sluggish. We talked about it today and made a point to bring it today, have a little energy. That"s what everybody's looking for and we wanted to bring it into the field."
Maybe that's different then nonchalant but it speaks to the sane thing. Whatever the reason, this team has not played with a passion they've had in the past. And I hate that so many new guys are being shown this clubhouse.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
Enthusiasm vs Performance
I like it, Tintin.
Waiting for someone else to get that big hit. It used to be anyone, not just the heart of the order coming through.
I don't think players try to get out. It hurts their ego too much. I do think the "little" things are lacking: extra hustle, taking an extra base, running out grounders, taking their time in the field, complaining to the umpire.
Waiting for someone else to get that big hit. It used to be anyone, not just the heart of the order coming through.
I don't think players try to get out. It hurts their ego too much. I do think the "little" things are lacking: extra hustle, taking an extra base, running out grounders, taking their time in the field, complaining to the umpire.
Enthusiasm vs Performance
4C687C74711D0 wrote: Much of what I've read lately on the forum especially in game threads is a criticism of the Pirates play in terms of enthusiasm. I watch almost all of the games on TV (I live in Florida) and quite honestly I haven't noticed any lack of enthusiasm on the part of the players.
I have seen bone-headed plays recently by Jaso and Mercer that were clearly a lack of concentration or focus. I've seen Cutch and Kang struggling mightily in their ABs and swings at pitches a foot outside of the strike zone. I've seen poor offensive, defensive, pitching and base running performances on a regular basis in 2016 as I have every year since I started following the Pirates in 1958 including championship seasons in 1960, 1971 and 1979.
What I've seen has been a few more poor performances this year than in the past 3 seasons which has resulted in a poorer W-L record. I can't say with any certainty that I've seen a dip in the player's enthusiasm. Sure Cutch and Kang have not been ebullient but the former is suffering through an historically noteworthy worst season of his professional career, and the latter is living under the cloud of a felony criminal charge that could end his career and possibly his freedom. What I've seen from both of them is more stoicism than lack of enthusiasm. They both seem to me to be trying very hard (maybe too hard?)
I ask those of you who have written about the lack of enthusiasm to consider that as fans we may be projecting our own lack of enthusiasm for this 2016 team and its many disappointments onto the players. Is it really lack of enthusiasm that's being observed or just poorer performance than we've become accustomed to?
When a baseball team plays poorly it looks like a lack of effort due to the nature of the game, much of which is cerebral and focused on hand/eye coordination kinds of skills. My dad would always criticize the Bucs during their bad years for being "listless" but I would always counter with but that is what an 0-4 looks like. The other pitcher is dominating our hitters so we look "listless". Guys can play hard and still not be successful.
I have seen bone-headed plays recently by Jaso and Mercer that were clearly a lack of concentration or focus. I've seen Cutch and Kang struggling mightily in their ABs and swings at pitches a foot outside of the strike zone. I've seen poor offensive, defensive, pitching and base running performances on a regular basis in 2016 as I have every year since I started following the Pirates in 1958 including championship seasons in 1960, 1971 and 1979.
What I've seen has been a few more poor performances this year than in the past 3 seasons which has resulted in a poorer W-L record. I can't say with any certainty that I've seen a dip in the player's enthusiasm. Sure Cutch and Kang have not been ebullient but the former is suffering through an historically noteworthy worst season of his professional career, and the latter is living under the cloud of a felony criminal charge that could end his career and possibly his freedom. What I've seen from both of them is more stoicism than lack of enthusiasm. They both seem to me to be trying very hard (maybe too hard?)
I ask those of you who have written about the lack of enthusiasm to consider that as fans we may be projecting our own lack of enthusiasm for this 2016 team and its many disappointments onto the players. Is it really lack of enthusiasm that's being observed or just poorer performance than we've become accustomed to?
When a baseball team plays poorly it looks like a lack of effort due to the nature of the game, much of which is cerebral and focused on hand/eye coordination kinds of skills. My dad would always criticize the Bucs during their bad years for being "listless" but I would always counter with but that is what an 0-4 looks like. The other pitcher is dominating our hitters so we look "listless". Guys can play hard and still not be successful.