Official Game Thread - 5/12 - Bucs @ Orioles
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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SteadyFreddy
Official Game Thread - 5/12 - Bucs @ Orioles
From 20-8 two weeks ago to 21-18 and finally out of 1st place even if it’s just by a half game. Hopefully find a way to play better and win these final 2 games in Baltimore. As fun as this team was to watch in April it has been equally as brutal to watch so far two weeks into May. Streaks like this one the Pirates are on 10 losses in 11 games are reasons why this team and organization overall just has no trust within the fan base. They have to continue to build that up and earn it and everytime they start to get a little bit ahead they turnaround and pee right down your leg.
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Bobster21
Official Game Thread - 5/12 - Bucs @ Orioles
7C5B4A4E4B56695D4A4B4B562F0 wrote: From 20-8 two weeks ago to 21-18 and finally out of 1st place even if it’s just by a half game. Hopefully find a way to play better and win these final 2 games in Baltimore. As fun as this team was to watch in April it has been equally as brutal to watch so far two weeks into May. Streaks like this one the Pirates are on 10 losses in 11 games are reasons why this team and organization overall just has no trust within the fan base. They have to continue to build that up and earn it and everytime they start to get a little bit ahead they turnaround and pee right down your leg.
When they were winning, it was hard to explain or understand. It didn't make sense. They didn't look good on paper. Everyone was vastly exceeding expectations. But now that they are losing, it is easy to understand. Guys who were not expected to hit well or pitch well are not hitting well or pitching well. And Shelton is making his usual poor decisions. If someone had predicted prior to the season that they would have a 1-10 stretch, it would not seem unreasonable. But 20-8 sounds like a fantasy. This is a bad team playing badly. It makes sense.
When they were winning, it was hard to explain or understand. It didn't make sense. They didn't look good on paper. Everyone was vastly exceeding expectations. But now that they are losing, it is easy to understand. Guys who were not expected to hit well or pitch well are not hitting well or pitching well. And Shelton is making his usual poor decisions. If someone had predicted prior to the season that they would have a 1-10 stretch, it would not seem unreasonable. But 20-8 sounds like a fantasy. This is a bad team playing badly. It makes sense.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Official Game Thread - 5/12 - Bucs @ Orioles
Before the season began, I felt that the Pirates would go as far as the pitching would take them. I had reasonable confidence in the hitting. I still hold that opinion.
A 1-10 stretch doesn't surprise me because even most championship-level clubs experience a down week or two during a six-month season. They might go 3-7. They obviously can't have them in October. If they do, there goes their championship.
I think of the club as "still in process," and most of the issue has to do with "discernment;" the ability to see things from a wider perspective.
We see the "bad" clubs. We see those almost right away. They're the A's, Nats, Royals, White Sox, etc.
We see the "good" clubs almost as soon. The question is- will they hold?
We don't usually get a sense of that until the 40-game mark. We're nearly there now. We see that the Pirates have been playing good teams for the most part, and that we're playing badly. We see that the Pirates are still "in process." We still have pieces that need to be better filled.
That might be saying the same thing with different words. I just don't think of the Pirates as a "bad" team. I think of them as more "average." "Average" teams have as many good things as weaknesses.
"Bad" clubs don't have the ability to do what the Pirates have done.
Ben Cherington doesn't have "bad" clubs, especially after four years, and he only extends managers who make good decisions.
A 1-10 stretch doesn't surprise me because even most championship-level clubs experience a down week or two during a six-month season. They might go 3-7. They obviously can't have them in October. If they do, there goes their championship.
I think of the club as "still in process," and most of the issue has to do with "discernment;" the ability to see things from a wider perspective.
We see the "bad" clubs. We see those almost right away. They're the A's, Nats, Royals, White Sox, etc.
We see the "good" clubs almost as soon. The question is- will they hold?
We don't usually get a sense of that until the 40-game mark. We're nearly there now. We see that the Pirates have been playing good teams for the most part, and that we're playing badly. We see that the Pirates are still "in process." We still have pieces that need to be better filled.
That might be saying the same thing with different words. I just don't think of the Pirates as a "bad" team. I think of them as more "average." "Average" teams have as many good things as weaknesses.
"Bad" clubs don't have the ability to do what the Pirates have done.
Ben Cherington doesn't have "bad" clubs, especially after four years, and he only extends managers who make good decisions.
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bucs607179
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:08 pm
Official Game Thread - 5/12 - Bucs @ Orioles
Dammit!! The Oriole fans must have been as pumped as we were with the great start. Their team has not let them down just yet.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Official Game Thread - 5/12 - Bucs @ Orioles
I've yet to meet my first O's fan to ever bang on that club. They're about as homey as they come.
They have a good club; probably a little further ahead than us. Arguably competing in a better division. Happy for them, but I say- time to re-enact a little 1971 and 1979 on them and remind them who's boss.
They have a good club; probably a little further ahead than us. Arguably competing in a better division. Happy for them, but I say- time to re-enact a little 1971 and 1979 on them and remind them who's boss.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Official Game Thread - 5/12 - Bucs @ Orioles
022F22333425327271400 wrote: From 20-8 two weeks ago to 21-18 and finally out of 1st place even if it’s just by a half game. Hopefully find a way to play better and win these final 2 games in Baltimore. As fun as this team was to watch in April it has been equally as brutal to watch so far two weeks into May. Streaks like this one the Pirates are on 10 losses in 11 games are reasons why this team and organization overall just has no trust within the fan base. They have to continue to build that up and earn it and everytime they start to get a little bit ahead they turnaround and pee right down your leg.
When they were winning, it was hard to explain or understand. It didn't make sense. They didn't look good on paper. Everyone was vastly exceeding expectations. But now that they are losing, it is easy to understand. Guys who were not expected to hit well or pitch well are not hitting well or pitching well. And Shelton is making his usual poor decisions. If someone had predicted prior to the season that they would have a 1-10 stretch, it would not seem unreasonable. But 20-8 sounds like a fantasy. This is a bad team playing badly. It makes sense.
When the club was winning, it had really good starting pitching combined with timely hitting. A month-long of winning baseball is possible, even for below average teams, when that happens. And that’s what the Pirates are likely to show themselves to be after 162 games.
But below average teams are more likely to have stretches where they’re really bad. I don’t think many of us are surprised by this when it happens. The team will end up below average for several reasons, the most important one being that it’s made up of mostly young players making below average plays.
What I hope for is that the young guys taking their lumps now are going to learn from it and grow into above average players. I still believe that’s what this season is about. So I’m not going to get discouraged by losses, but only by a lack of growth and development of the players who are supposed to lead us out of the darkness.
When they were winning, it was hard to explain or understand. It didn't make sense. They didn't look good on paper. Everyone was vastly exceeding expectations. But now that they are losing, it is easy to understand. Guys who were not expected to hit well or pitch well are not hitting well or pitching well. And Shelton is making his usual poor decisions. If someone had predicted prior to the season that they would have a 1-10 stretch, it would not seem unreasonable. But 20-8 sounds like a fantasy. This is a bad team playing badly. It makes sense.
When the club was winning, it had really good starting pitching combined with timely hitting. A month-long of winning baseball is possible, even for below average teams, when that happens. And that’s what the Pirates are likely to show themselves to be after 162 games.
But below average teams are more likely to have stretches where they’re really bad. I don’t think many of us are surprised by this when it happens. The team will end up below average for several reasons, the most important one being that it’s made up of mostly young players making below average plays.
What I hope for is that the young guys taking their lumps now are going to learn from it and grow into above average players. I still believe that’s what this season is about. So I’m not going to get discouraged by losses, but only by a lack of growth and development of the players who are supposed to lead us out of the darkness.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Official Game Thread - 5/12 - Bucs @ Orioles
Our young, below-average players become experienced, below-average players until they're eventually replaced. It's not like many become above average.
With some exceptions. Keller might be one.
Reynolds was good for the most part. Cutch, way back when, was good for the most part. Hayes is Hayes; not like there's significant "improvement."
I dont see many caterpillars turning to butterflies. They've been what they've been.
I see the issue as the need to bring in more above-average talent rather than expecting below-average talent to become good.
With some exceptions. Keller might be one.
Reynolds was good for the most part. Cutch, way back when, was good for the most part. Hayes is Hayes; not like there's significant "improvement."
I dont see many caterpillars turning to butterflies. They've been what they've been.
I see the issue as the need to bring in more above-average talent rather than expecting below-average talent to become good.
Official Game Thread - 5/12 - Bucs @ Orioles
603620343B21313A372012353F333B3E7C31520 wrote: From 20-8 two weeks ago to 21-18 and finally out of 1st place even if it’s just by a half game. Hopefully find a way to play better and win these final 2 games in Baltimore. As fun as this team was to watch in April it has been equally as brutal to watch so far two weeks into May. Streaks like this one the Pirates are on 10 losses in 11 games are reasons why this team and organization overall just has no trust within the fan base. They have to continue to build that up and earn it and everytime they start to get a little bit ahead they turnaround and pee right down your leg.
When they were winning, it was hard to explain or understand. It didn't make sense. They didn't look good on paper. Everyone was vastly exceeding expectations. But now that they are losing, it is easy to understand. Guys who were not expected to hit well or pitch well are not hitting well or pitching well. And Shelton is making his usual poor decisions. If someone had predicted prior to the season that they would have a 1-10 stretch, it would not seem unreasonable. But 20-8 sounds like a fantasy. This is a bad team playing badly. It makes sense.
When the club was winning, it had really good starting pitching combined with timely hitting. A month-long of winning baseball is possible, even for below average teams, when that happens. And that’s what the Pirates are likely to show themselves to be after 162 games.
But below average teams are more likely to have stretches where they’re really bad. I don’t think many of us are surprised by this when it happens. The team will end up below average for several reasons, the most important one being that it’s made up of mostly young players making below average plays.
What I hope for is that the young guys taking their lumps now are going to learn from it and grow into above average players. I still believe that’s what this season is about. So I’m not going to get discouraged by losses, but only by a lack of growth and development of the players who are supposed to lead us out of the darkness.
yeah, this season is gong to go along way to show who is part of the future. Hill, Santana, Hedges (maybe Cutch) are not. Jury is out on Castro, and Bae. Can't believe Underwood is going to be around next year either, he is below average and is running out of chances. Hopefully we will get to see Endy, Davis and Priester for a good part of this season too.
When they were winning, it was hard to explain or understand. It didn't make sense. They didn't look good on paper. Everyone was vastly exceeding expectations. But now that they are losing, it is easy to understand. Guys who were not expected to hit well or pitch well are not hitting well or pitching well. And Shelton is making his usual poor decisions. If someone had predicted prior to the season that they would have a 1-10 stretch, it would not seem unreasonable. But 20-8 sounds like a fantasy. This is a bad team playing badly. It makes sense.
When the club was winning, it had really good starting pitching combined with timely hitting. A month-long of winning baseball is possible, even for below average teams, when that happens. And that’s what the Pirates are likely to show themselves to be after 162 games.
But below average teams are more likely to have stretches where they’re really bad. I don’t think many of us are surprised by this when it happens. The team will end up below average for several reasons, the most important one being that it’s made up of mostly young players making below average plays.
What I hope for is that the young guys taking their lumps now are going to learn from it and grow into above average players. I still believe that’s what this season is about. So I’m not going to get discouraged by losses, but only by a lack of growth and development of the players who are supposed to lead us out of the darkness.
yeah, this season is gong to go along way to show who is part of the future. Hill, Santana, Hedges (maybe Cutch) are not. Jury is out on Castro, and Bae. Can't believe Underwood is going to be around next year either, he is below average and is running out of chances. Hopefully we will get to see Endy, Davis and Priester for a good part of this season too.
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Bobster21
Official Game Thread - 5/12 - Bucs @ Orioles
5A6F7878734A78787374781D0 wrote: Our young, below-average players become experienced, below-average players until they're eventually replaced. It's not like many become above average.
With some exceptions. Keller might be one.
Reynolds was good for the most part. Cutch, way back when, was good for the most part. Hayes is Hayes; not like there's significant "improvement."
I dont see many caterpillars turning to butterflies. They've been what they've been.
I see the issue as the need to bring in more above-average talent rather than expecting below-average talent to become good.
I think you're right GW. Look at how the Orioles have improved. The prospects they developed or acquired have become productive players: Rutschman, Hays, Mountcastle, Mateo, Mullens, Santander, Bautista. Their SP looks weak and Henderson has disappointed. But the lineup has a lot of guys who are consistently productive.
For the Pirates, only Reynolds, Bednar and Keller are emerging as standout players. We don't yet know about Cruz. Hayes' good glove doesn't help him at the plate and his hitting is not improving. Maybe current prospects in AA and AAA will become above average players. But right now the MLB roster has too many average or below average players.
With some exceptions. Keller might be one.
Reynolds was good for the most part. Cutch, way back when, was good for the most part. Hayes is Hayes; not like there's significant "improvement."
I dont see many caterpillars turning to butterflies. They've been what they've been.
I see the issue as the need to bring in more above-average talent rather than expecting below-average talent to become good.
I think you're right GW. Look at how the Orioles have improved. The prospects they developed or acquired have become productive players: Rutschman, Hays, Mountcastle, Mateo, Mullens, Santander, Bautista. Their SP looks weak and Henderson has disappointed. But the lineup has a lot of guys who are consistently productive.
For the Pirates, only Reynolds, Bednar and Keller are emerging as standout players. We don't yet know about Cruz. Hayes' good glove doesn't help him at the plate and his hitting is not improving. Maybe current prospects in AA and AAA will become above average players. But right now the MLB roster has too many average or below average players.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Official Game Thread - 5/12 - Bucs @ Orioles
694F4E594F5F2C0 wrote: From 20-8 two weeks ago to 21-18 and finally out of 1st place even if it’s just by a half game. Hopefully find a way to play better and win these final 2 games in Baltimore. As fun as this team was to watch in April it has been equally as brutal to watch so far two weeks into May. Streaks like this one the Pirates are on 10 losses in 11 games are reasons why this team and organization overall just has no trust within the fan base. They have to continue to build that up and earn it and everytime they start to get a little bit ahead they turnaround and pee right down your leg.
When they were winning, it was hard to explain or understand. It didn't make sense. They didn't look good on paper. Everyone was vastly exceeding expectations. But now that they are losing, it is easy to understand. Guys who were not expected to hit well or pitch well are not hitting well or pitching well. And Shelton is making his usual poor decisions. If someone had predicted prior to the season that they would have a 1-10 stretch, it would not seem unreasonable. But 20-8 sounds like a fantasy. This is a bad team playing badly. It makes sense.
When the club was winning, it had really good starting pitching combined with timely hitting. A month-long of winning baseball is possible, even for below average teams, when that happens. And that’s what the Pirates are likely to show themselves to be after 162 games.
But below average teams are more likely to have stretches where they’re really bad. I don’t think many of us are surprised by this when it happens. The team will end up below average for several reasons, the most important one being that it’s made up of mostly young players making below average plays.
What I hope for is that the young guys taking their lumps now are going to learn from it and grow into above average players. I still believe that’s what this season is about. So I’m not going to get discouraged by losses, but only by a lack of growth and development of the players who are supposed to lead us out of the darkness.
[highlight]yeah, this season is gong to go along way to show who is part of the future. Hill, Santana, Hedges (maybe Cutch) are not.[/highlight] Jury is out on Castro, and Bae. Can't believe Underwood is going to be around next year either, he is below average and is running out of chances. Hopefully we will get to see Endy, Davis and Priester for a good part of this season too.
Agreed. Going forward, the club's success will depend mostly on the young players acquired by Cherington over his time here, not the older guys you mentioned. We know the club won't be signing any big name free agents to multi-year contracts so, the youngsters here now, and the ones like Endy and Gonzales who might get here later this year, along with the ones behind them in the minor leagues, are the guys who are going to have to take the Pirates into the playoffs in the near future.
We still don't know for certain which ones will succeed or fail, but we'll have a better idea come October if they have ample opportunity to show if they can or they can't.
When they were winning, it was hard to explain or understand. It didn't make sense. They didn't look good on paper. Everyone was vastly exceeding expectations. But now that they are losing, it is easy to understand. Guys who were not expected to hit well or pitch well are not hitting well or pitching well. And Shelton is making his usual poor decisions. If someone had predicted prior to the season that they would have a 1-10 stretch, it would not seem unreasonable. But 20-8 sounds like a fantasy. This is a bad team playing badly. It makes sense.
When the club was winning, it had really good starting pitching combined with timely hitting. A month-long of winning baseball is possible, even for below average teams, when that happens. And that’s what the Pirates are likely to show themselves to be after 162 games.
But below average teams are more likely to have stretches where they’re really bad. I don’t think many of us are surprised by this when it happens. The team will end up below average for several reasons, the most important one being that it’s made up of mostly young players making below average plays.
What I hope for is that the young guys taking their lumps now are going to learn from it and grow into above average players. I still believe that’s what this season is about. So I’m not going to get discouraged by losses, but only by a lack of growth and development of the players who are supposed to lead us out of the darkness.
[highlight]yeah, this season is gong to go along way to show who is part of the future. Hill, Santana, Hedges (maybe Cutch) are not.[/highlight] Jury is out on Castro, and Bae. Can't believe Underwood is going to be around next year either, he is below average and is running out of chances. Hopefully we will get to see Endy, Davis and Priester for a good part of this season too.
Agreed. Going forward, the club's success will depend mostly on the young players acquired by Cherington over his time here, not the older guys you mentioned. We know the club won't be signing any big name free agents to multi-year contracts so, the youngsters here now, and the ones like Endy and Gonzales who might get here later this year, along with the ones behind them in the minor leagues, are the guys who are going to have to take the Pirates into the playoffs in the near future.
We still don't know for certain which ones will succeed or fail, but we'll have a better idea come October if they have ample opportunity to show if they can or they can't.