614C41505746511112230 wrote: Terrible loss today. Bednar has to pitch that 9th inning and close that game out. He hadn’t pitched since Sunday and threw 10 pitches in the 8th inning. You’re desperate to win a game against this Brewers team who has beaten you 5 straight games this season so far and putting in Stratton over Bednar to try and get the save was not the way to go. Derek Shelton is a bad manager that’s all there is to it. I don’t want him anywhere near this team in the next several years when these young guys are ready to come up. He is a tone deaf manager who is in way over his head.
Shelton probably wanted both guys available for tomorrow night. If Bednar and Stratton were of equal ability , you could see what he did. Hardly the case as a total moron can see one is just a guy and the other is elite. He is really over managing and pulling his starter after 75 pitches was also lame.
Shelton is grossly overmanaging and his moves don't even make sense. If he was concerned about the availability of relievers for the next game, why pull the dominating Quintana after 5 innings, 78 pitches and use up Yajure for 1.2 innings? After allowing the first pitch HR to Cutch, Quintana allowed only 3 singles with no walks and 9 strikeouts. After Cutch, no batter reached 2B. He could have let Quintana continue to dominate and saved Yajure for another day. Shelton has always shown a disregard for performance. A good day at the plate for a hitter is usually a precursor to a day on the bench. A strong outing by a pitcher means a quick hook. Shelton seems to make up his mind about how he wants to he manage the game before it starts and sticks to a plan regardless of how the players are performing. He can't seem to take his finger off all his managerial buttons and just let the players play.
Yep
Game Thread 4/28/2022 Brewers vs. Bucs
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
-
GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Game Thread 4/28/2022 Brewers vs. Bucs
If his boss has any issue with game management, I'd expect them to talk things over?
What's Ben doing about it, if anything?
What's Ben doing about it, if anything?
-
Bobster21
Game Thread 4/28/2022 Brewers vs. Bucs
685D4A4A41784A4A41464A2F0 wrote: If his boss has any issue with game management, I'd expect them to talk things over?
What's Ben doing about it, if anything?
That seems reasonable. OTOH, if we assume every manager's actions are approved by his GM, why has any manager ever been fired? I'm sure there is a coordinated effort between managers and GMs but managers appear to have the leeway to do things that eventually get them fired, so at some point it would appear GMs take issue with the decisions of managers.
What's Ben doing about it, if anything?
That seems reasonable. OTOH, if we assume every manager's actions are approved by his GM, why has any manager ever been fired? I'm sure there is a coordinated effort between managers and GMs but managers appear to have the leeway to do things that eventually get them fired, so at some point it would appear GMs take issue with the decisions of managers.
-
2drfischer@gmail.c
Game Thread 4/28/2022 Brewers vs. Bucs
032E23323524337370410 wrote: Terrible loss today. Bednar has to pitch that 9th inning and close that game out. He hadn’t pitched since Sunday and threw 10 pitches in the 8th inning. You’re desperate to win a game against this Brewers team who has beaten you 5 straight games this season so far and putting in Stratton over Bednar to try and get the save was not the way to go. Derek Shelton is a bad manager that’s all there is to it. I don’t want him anywhere near this team in the next several years when these young guys are ready to come up. He is a tone deaf manager who is in way over his head.
Shelton probably wanted both guys available for tomorrow night. If Bednar and Stratton were of equal ability , you could see what he did. Hardly the case as a total moron can see one is just a guy and the other is elite. He is really over managing and pulling his starter after 75 pitches was also lame.
Shelton is grossly overmanaging and his moves don't even make sense. If he was concerned about the availability of relievers for the next game, why pull the dominating Quintana after 5 innings, 78 pitches and use up Yajure for 1.2 innings? After allowing the first pitch HR to Cutch, Quintana allowed only 3 singles with no walks and 9 strikeouts. After Cutch, no batter reached 2B. He could have let Quintana continue to dominate and saved Yajure for another day. Shelton has always shown a disregard for performance. A good day at the plate for a hitter is usually a precursor to a day on the bench. A strong outing by a pitcher means a quick hook. Shelton seems to make up his mind about how he wants to he manage the game before it starts and sticks to a plan regardless of how the players are performing. He can't seem to take his finger off all his managerial buttons and just let the players play.
I think we all know Quintana was signed in order to be dealt at the deadline. Maybe to insure the best return possible BC decided to limit his innings to avoid an injury and to hope that he did well in those short stints to minimize bad outings. So far, that’s what it looks like. Not a bad strategy since winning isn’t this season’s priority.
Shelton probably wanted both guys available for tomorrow night. If Bednar and Stratton were of equal ability , you could see what he did. Hardly the case as a total moron can see one is just a guy and the other is elite. He is really over managing and pulling his starter after 75 pitches was also lame.
Shelton is grossly overmanaging and his moves don't even make sense. If he was concerned about the availability of relievers for the next game, why pull the dominating Quintana after 5 innings, 78 pitches and use up Yajure for 1.2 innings? After allowing the first pitch HR to Cutch, Quintana allowed only 3 singles with no walks and 9 strikeouts. After Cutch, no batter reached 2B. He could have let Quintana continue to dominate and saved Yajure for another day. Shelton has always shown a disregard for performance. A good day at the plate for a hitter is usually a precursor to a day on the bench. A strong outing by a pitcher means a quick hook. Shelton seems to make up his mind about how he wants to he manage the game before it starts and sticks to a plan regardless of how the players are performing. He can't seem to take his finger off all his managerial buttons and just let the players play.
I think we all know Quintana was signed in order to be dealt at the deadline. Maybe to insure the best return possible BC decided to limit his innings to avoid an injury and to hope that he did well in those short stints to minimize bad outings. So far, that’s what it looks like. Not a bad strategy since winning isn’t this season’s priority.
-
Bobster21
Game Thread 4/28/2022 Brewers vs. Bucs
257365717E64747F726557707A767E7B3974170 wrote:
I think we all know Quintana was signed in order to be dealt at the deadline. Maybe to insure the best return possible BC decided to limit his innings to avoid an injury and to hope that he did well in those short stints to minimize bad outings. So far, that’s what it looks like. Not a bad strategy since winning isn’t this season’s priority.
Can't agree with that. Quintana was a reclamation project just trying to revive his career after injuries threatened to end it. Even before that, his 4.68 ERA in 2019 appeared to signal a downward spiral. The Pirates were willing to take a chance on him because they are desperate for SPs and his situation precluded him from getting a big contract. Of course, they would look to deal him at the TDL in the event he had a pleasantly surprising season. But that was not the reason he was signed. They were just happy to find a SP. And at age 33 and trying to revive his career, he won't bring very much back in a trade. So they might as well get as much out of him as possible. And if they are limiting his innings to keep him healthy for a trade, then they must also be looking to trade the rest of the rotation because they are treating them all the same way.
I think we all know Quintana was signed in order to be dealt at the deadline. Maybe to insure the best return possible BC decided to limit his innings to avoid an injury and to hope that he did well in those short stints to minimize bad outings. So far, that’s what it looks like. Not a bad strategy since winning isn’t this season’s priority.
Can't agree with that. Quintana was a reclamation project just trying to revive his career after injuries threatened to end it. Even before that, his 4.68 ERA in 2019 appeared to signal a downward spiral. The Pirates were willing to take a chance on him because they are desperate for SPs and his situation precluded him from getting a big contract. Of course, they would look to deal him at the TDL in the event he had a pleasantly surprising season. But that was not the reason he was signed. They were just happy to find a SP. And at age 33 and trying to revive his career, he won't bring very much back in a trade. So they might as well get as much out of him as possible. And if they are limiting his innings to keep him healthy for a trade, then they must also be looking to trade the rest of the rotation because they are treating them all the same way.
-
GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Game Thread 4/28/2022 Brewers vs. Bucs
220F02131405125251600 wrote: If his boss has any issue with game management, I'd expect them to talk things over?
What's Ben doing about it, if anything?
That seems reasonable. OTOH, if we assume every manager's actions are approved by his GM, why has any manager ever been fired? I'm sure there is a coordinated effort between managers and GMs but managers appear to have the leeway to do things that eventually get them fired, so at some point it would appear GMs take issue with the decisions of managers.
Discernment. Not every situation is identical or even similar.
Shelton is no Buck Showalter, Tony LaRussa, or Dusty Baker. He's been on his job a day and a half. He's not going to have the same leeway that more tenured/deserving managers get. It's a different methodology in today's game. Teams don't operate the way they did in 1960 or even 2000. Shelton is overseen. Thiose guys aren't as much. They've earned their stripes. Shelton's an OJT by comparison.
Then, you have the "WBF" (Whipping Boy Factor.)
Managers get fired to take the fall for incompetence of their boss (the GM) or the boss' boss (Owner.) It's part of 'the scam."
Managers get paid the big bucks, in part, to take the hit for others. Then, they get hired by some other team and go through it again.
If Cherington's not discussing gameday things with Shelton, then I put it on Cherington for being negligent. I'll assume that they are talking things over.
What's Ben doing about it, if anything?
That seems reasonable. OTOH, if we assume every manager's actions are approved by his GM, why has any manager ever been fired? I'm sure there is a coordinated effort between managers and GMs but managers appear to have the leeway to do things that eventually get them fired, so at some point it would appear GMs take issue with the decisions of managers.
Discernment. Not every situation is identical or even similar.
Shelton is no Buck Showalter, Tony LaRussa, or Dusty Baker. He's been on his job a day and a half. He's not going to have the same leeway that more tenured/deserving managers get. It's a different methodology in today's game. Teams don't operate the way they did in 1960 or even 2000. Shelton is overseen. Thiose guys aren't as much. They've earned their stripes. Shelton's an OJT by comparison.
Then, you have the "WBF" (Whipping Boy Factor.)
Managers get fired to take the fall for incompetence of their boss (the GM) or the boss' boss (Owner.) It's part of 'the scam."
Managers get paid the big bucks, in part, to take the hit for others. Then, they get hired by some other team and go through it again.
If Cherington's not discussing gameday things with Shelton, then I put it on Cherington for being negligent. I'll assume that they are talking things over.
-
2drfischer@gmail.c
Game Thread 4/28/2022 Brewers vs. Bucs
426F62737465723231000 wrote:
I think we all know Quintana was signed in order to be dealt at the deadline. Maybe to insure the best return possible BC decided to limit his innings to avoid an injury and to hope that he did well in those short stints to minimize bad outings. So far, that’s what it looks like. Not a bad strategy since winning isn’t this season’s priority.
Can't agree with that. Quintana was a reclamation project just trying to revive his career after injuries threatened to end it. Even before that, his 4.68 ERA in 2019 appeared to signal a downward spiral. The Pirates were willing to take a chance on him because they are desperate for SPs and his situation precluded him from getting a big contract. Of course, they would look to deal him at the TDL in the event he had a pleasantly surprising season. But that was not the reason he was signed. They were just happy to find a SP. And at age 33 and trying to revive his career, he won't bring very much back in a trade. So they might as well get as much out of him as possible. And if they are limiting his innings to keep him healthy for a trade, then they must also be looking to trade the rest of the rotation because they are treating them all the same way.
Disagree. I believe the first priority in signing him was to deal him because he’s left handed and he’s only 33. If Quintana didn’t pitch well, it was no loss for the Pirates because the team wasn’t going to win. BC would simply release him and then rotate a few guys from Indy and Altoona to use in his place.
On the other hand, if Quintana had a mostly good half season, a team in the race at the Deadline may be willing to trade for him, not necessarily for a starting role but to work out of the bullpen. Teams are always looking for lefties.
I think we all know Quintana was signed in order to be dealt at the deadline. Maybe to insure the best return possible BC decided to limit his innings to avoid an injury and to hope that he did well in those short stints to minimize bad outings. So far, that’s what it looks like. Not a bad strategy since winning isn’t this season’s priority.
Can't agree with that. Quintana was a reclamation project just trying to revive his career after injuries threatened to end it. Even before that, his 4.68 ERA in 2019 appeared to signal a downward spiral. The Pirates were willing to take a chance on him because they are desperate for SPs and his situation precluded him from getting a big contract. Of course, they would look to deal him at the TDL in the event he had a pleasantly surprising season. But that was not the reason he was signed. They were just happy to find a SP. And at age 33 and trying to revive his career, he won't bring very much back in a trade. So they might as well get as much out of him as possible. And if they are limiting his innings to keep him healthy for a trade, then they must also be looking to trade the rest of the rotation because they are treating them all the same way.
Disagree. I believe the first priority in signing him was to deal him because he’s left handed and he’s only 33. If Quintana didn’t pitch well, it was no loss for the Pirates because the team wasn’t going to win. BC would simply release him and then rotate a few guys from Indy and Altoona to use in his place.
On the other hand, if Quintana had a mostly good half season, a team in the race at the Deadline may be willing to trade for him, not necessarily for a starting role but to work out of the bullpen. Teams are always looking for lefties.
-
Bobster21
Game Thread 4/28/2022 Brewers vs. Bucs
1D4B5D49465C4C474A5D6F48424E4643014C2F0 wrote:
I think we all know Quintana was signed in order to be dealt at the deadline. Maybe to insure the best return possible BC decided to limit his innings to avoid an injury and to hope that he did well in those short stints to minimize bad outings. So far, that’s what it looks like. Not a bad strategy since winning isn’t this season’s priority.
Can't agree with that. Quintana was a reclamation project just trying to revive his career after injuries threatened to end it. Even before that, his 4.68 ERA in 2019 appeared to signal a downward spiral. The Pirates were willing to take a chance on him because they are desperate for SPs and his situation precluded him from getting a big contract. Of course, they would look to deal him at the TDL in the event he had a pleasantly surprising season. But that was not the reason he was signed. They were just happy to find a SP. And at age 33 and trying to revive his career, he won't bring very much back in a trade. So they might as well get as much out of him as possible. And if they are limiting his innings to keep him healthy for a trade, then they must also be looking to trade the rest of the rotation because they are treating them all the same way.
Disagree. I believe the first priority in signing him was to deal him because he’s left handed and he’s only 33. If Quintana didn’t pitch well, it was no loss for the Pirates because the team wasn’t going to win. BC would simply release him and then rotate a few guys from Indy and Altoona to use in his place.
On the other hand, if Quintana had a mostly good half season, a team in the race at the Deadline may be willing to trade for him, not necessarily for a starting role but to work out of the bullpen. Teams are always looking for lefties.
I just find it hard to believe that a pitcher whose career at this point was iffy to begin with was acquired primarily to be trade bait.
I think we all know Quintana was signed in order to be dealt at the deadline. Maybe to insure the best return possible BC decided to limit his innings to avoid an injury and to hope that he did well in those short stints to minimize bad outings. So far, that’s what it looks like. Not a bad strategy since winning isn’t this season’s priority.
Can't agree with that. Quintana was a reclamation project just trying to revive his career after injuries threatened to end it. Even before that, his 4.68 ERA in 2019 appeared to signal a downward spiral. The Pirates were willing to take a chance on him because they are desperate for SPs and his situation precluded him from getting a big contract. Of course, they would look to deal him at the TDL in the event he had a pleasantly surprising season. But that was not the reason he was signed. They were just happy to find a SP. And at age 33 and trying to revive his career, he won't bring very much back in a trade. So they might as well get as much out of him as possible. And if they are limiting his innings to keep him healthy for a trade, then they must also be looking to trade the rest of the rotation because they are treating them all the same way.
Disagree. I believe the first priority in signing him was to deal him because he’s left handed and he’s only 33. If Quintana didn’t pitch well, it was no loss for the Pirates because the team wasn’t going to win. BC would simply release him and then rotate a few guys from Indy and Altoona to use in his place.
On the other hand, if Quintana had a mostly good half season, a team in the race at the Deadline may be willing to trade for him, not necessarily for a starting role but to work out of the bullpen. Teams are always looking for lefties.
I just find it hard to believe that a pitcher whose career at this point was iffy to begin with was acquired primarily to be trade bait.
-
2drfischer@gmail.c
Game Thread 4/28/2022 Brewers vs. Bucs
4A676A7B7C6D7A3A39080 wrote:
I think we all know Quintana was signed in order to be dealt at the deadline. Maybe to insure the best return possible BC decided to limit his innings to avoid an injury and to hope that he did well in those short stints to minimize bad outings. So far, that’s what it looks like. Not a bad strategy since winning isn’t this season’s priority.
Can't agree with that. Quintana was a reclamation project just trying to revive his career after injuries threatened to end it. Even before that, his 4.68 ERA in 2019 appeared to signal a downward spiral. The Pirates were willing to take a chance on him because they are desperate for SPs and his situation precluded him from getting a big contract. Of course, they would look to deal him at the TDL in the event he had a pleasantly surprising season. But that was not the reason he was signed. They were just happy to find a SP. And at age 33 and trying to revive his career, he won't bring very much back in a trade. So they might as well get as much out of him as possible. And if they are limiting his innings to keep him healthy for a trade, then they must also be looking to trade the rest of the rotation because they are treating them all the same way.
Disagree. I believe the first priority in signing him was to deal him because he’s left handed and he’s only 33. If Quintana didn’t pitch well, it was no loss for the Pirates because the team wasn’t going to win. BC would simply release him and then rotate a few guys from Indy and Altoona to use in his place.
On the other hand, if Quintana had a mostly good half season, a team in the race at the Deadline may be willing to trade for him, not necessarily for a starting role but to work out of the bullpen. Teams are always looking for lefties.
I just find it hard to believe that a pitcher whose career at this point was iffy to begin with was acquired primarily to be trade bait.
It likely happens every year. Guys who’ve had a bad year or two are acquired with the idea of giving them a fresh start with the hope they rebound, especially by a team like the Pirates, who have nothing to lose. The fact that Quintana is left handed makes it even more believable.
I think we all know Quintana was signed in order to be dealt at the deadline. Maybe to insure the best return possible BC decided to limit his innings to avoid an injury and to hope that he did well in those short stints to minimize bad outings. So far, that’s what it looks like. Not a bad strategy since winning isn’t this season’s priority.
Can't agree with that. Quintana was a reclamation project just trying to revive his career after injuries threatened to end it. Even before that, his 4.68 ERA in 2019 appeared to signal a downward spiral. The Pirates were willing to take a chance on him because they are desperate for SPs and his situation precluded him from getting a big contract. Of course, they would look to deal him at the TDL in the event he had a pleasantly surprising season. But that was not the reason he was signed. They were just happy to find a SP. And at age 33 and trying to revive his career, he won't bring very much back in a trade. So they might as well get as much out of him as possible. And if they are limiting his innings to keep him healthy for a trade, then they must also be looking to trade the rest of the rotation because they are treating them all the same way.
Disagree. I believe the first priority in signing him was to deal him because he’s left handed and he’s only 33. If Quintana didn’t pitch well, it was no loss for the Pirates because the team wasn’t going to win. BC would simply release him and then rotate a few guys from Indy and Altoona to use in his place.
On the other hand, if Quintana had a mostly good half season, a team in the race at the Deadline may be willing to trade for him, not necessarily for a starting role but to work out of the bullpen. Teams are always looking for lefties.
I just find it hard to believe that a pitcher whose career at this point was iffy to begin with was acquired primarily to be trade bait.
It likely happens every year. Guys who’ve had a bad year or two are acquired with the idea of giving them a fresh start with the hope they rebound, especially by a team like the Pirates, who have nothing to lose. The fact that Quintana is left handed makes it even more believable.