2B20282421203B7E780F362E272020612C204F0 wrote: I don't agree with the article. I like WTM, but it is still an opinion piece. I respect his posts, but doesn't mean I always agree.
The Pirates are in a different situation than the Rays as they locked up all their players. The Rays had a good run, but they just didn't get over the hump. I wouldn't say the Rays failed. They were in position to win, but didn't.
Is it possible that Liriano stinks now? It sure looks that way. I am not sure why Toronto wants him in their playoff run. I am glad the Pirates didn't. To think he would have been benched as a Pirate would be a dream too. People say the Pirates don't care and never play for the "now". That is exactly what they did in removing Liriano: Addition by subtraction.
The Pirates have brought in pitchers every year. Why would 2017 be any different? The Rotation probably needs one free agent arm. The Pirates have proved to make a trade or sign guys since 2012. I have no worry that isn't the plan this next off season too.
The 2016 season is falling in place like I predicted. It just sucks that the regular stars of the team have been bad.
I will consider the Pirates a failure if they don't get over the hump and decline like the Rays have. I think Wilbur's main point is the Rays have declined and fallen out of contention.
Depressing View
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Depressing View
The Rays went to the World Series after never having a winning season. They went on to three more playoff appearances after that and winning 90 games numerous times. They had a window of opportunity, they just didn't win it. It happens. It is very hard to win the World Series. I wouldn't call them a failure.
The Pirates are set up to do just as well, if not better. Three playoff appearances in a row, the core of the team is signed long term, not many bad contracts (Harrison, hopefully not McCutchen and Cervelli), and still have young talent coming up.
I don't know why the Liriano trade is being judged now. It takes years for a trade to pan out and establish winners and losers.
We have no idea what the Pirates will do in the off season. Every year they brought in pitchers and other players. But now people think they won't because of the Liriano trade? I am not sure how they go together.
I am excited for the future. I am not depressed one bit going forward. Tampa Bay has to rebuild again. Just like every team does after making a run (Atlanta, Indians, Houston, Phillies, Orioles, Marlins) or like other teams who had a failed window over the years (Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees). The Royals got their win, but they might be in trouble in the near future too (Phillies come to mind).
The future is bright in Pittsburgh.
The Pirates are set up to do just as well, if not better. Three playoff appearances in a row, the core of the team is signed long term, not many bad contracts (Harrison, hopefully not McCutchen and Cervelli), and still have young talent coming up.
I don't know why the Liriano trade is being judged now. It takes years for a trade to pan out and establish winners and losers.
We have no idea what the Pirates will do in the off season. Every year they brought in pitchers and other players. But now people think they won't because of the Liriano trade? I am not sure how they go together.
I am excited for the future. I am not depressed one bit going forward. Tampa Bay has to rebuild again. Just like every team does after making a run (Atlanta, Indians, Houston, Phillies, Orioles, Marlins) or like other teams who had a failed window over the years (Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees). The Royals got their win, but they might be in trouble in the near future too (Phillies come to mind).
The future is bright in Pittsburgh.
Depressing View
48434B474243581D1B6C554D444343024F432C0 wrote: The Rays went to the World Series after never having a winning season. They went on to three more playoff appearances after that and winning 90 games numerous times. They had a window of opportunity, they just didn't win it. It happens. It is very hard to win the World Series. I wouldn't call them a failure.
The Pirates are set up to do just as well, if not better. Three playoff appearances in a row, the core of the team is signed long term, not many bad contracts (Harrison, hopefully not McCutchen and Cervelli), and still have young talent coming up.
I don't know why the Liriano trade is being judged now. It takes years for a trade to pan out and establish winners and losers.
We have no idea what the Pirates will do in the off season. Every year they brought in pitchers and other players. But now people think they won't because of the Liriano trade? I am not sure how they go together.
I am excited for the future. I am not depressed one bit going forward. Tampa Bay has to rebuild again. Just like every team does after making a run (Atlanta, Indians, Houston, Phillies, Orioles, Marlins) or like other teams who had a failed window over the years (Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees). The Royals got their win, but they might be in trouble in the near future too (Phillies come to mind).
The future is bright in Pittsburgh.
I consider Tampa a success, the Bucs target is to be competitive year and year out (no such thing as a window) and win a world championship. If they have a decline like Rays without getting to a Series then their run will have been a failure. Certainly teams take a step back and that may be what has happened to Pirates this year but they need to get back on track next year.
Watch, my pessimistic post will spur team on to win the World Series this season.
The Pirates are set up to do just as well, if not better. Three playoff appearances in a row, the core of the team is signed long term, not many bad contracts (Harrison, hopefully not McCutchen and Cervelli), and still have young talent coming up.
I don't know why the Liriano trade is being judged now. It takes years for a trade to pan out and establish winners and losers.
We have no idea what the Pirates will do in the off season. Every year they brought in pitchers and other players. But now people think they won't because of the Liriano trade? I am not sure how they go together.
I am excited for the future. I am not depressed one bit going forward. Tampa Bay has to rebuild again. Just like every team does after making a run (Atlanta, Indians, Houston, Phillies, Orioles, Marlins) or like other teams who had a failed window over the years (Red Sox, Cubs, Yankees). The Royals got their win, but they might be in trouble in the near future too (Phillies come to mind).
The future is bright in Pittsburgh.
I consider Tampa a success, the Bucs target is to be competitive year and year out (no such thing as a window) and win a world championship. If they have a decline like Rays without getting to a Series then their run will have been a failure. Certainly teams take a step back and that may be what has happened to Pirates this year but they need to get back on track next year.
Watch, my pessimistic post will spur team on to win the World Series this season.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Depressing View
Points the article made that I think are accurate:
1) the Pirates have, each of the past couple years, been content to be a very good team rather than reaching to be the best team. A couple additions and maybe the Pirates beat the royals last year.
2) the flow of prospects into the organization is seriously drying up. International signings and the lower levels of the farm is a huge concern.
3) the existing contracts are suddenly a concern. What's going to happen when a couple of these contracts don't turn out to be a bargain deal? Based on their reaction to Frankie's contract there is a legitimate reason for concern.
Bottomline, the articles place the past few offseasons in a possible context. Unless the FO proves the context is wrong, this off season, the conclusions of the articles are hard to disregard.
1) the Pirates have, each of the past couple years, been content to be a very good team rather than reaching to be the best team. A couple additions and maybe the Pirates beat the royals last year.
2) the flow of prospects into the organization is seriously drying up. International signings and the lower levels of the farm is a huge concern.
3) the existing contracts are suddenly a concern. What's going to happen when a couple of these contracts don't turn out to be a bargain deal? Based on their reaction to Frankie's contract there is a legitimate reason for concern.
Bottomline, the articles place the past few offseasons in a possible context. Unless the FO proves the context is wrong, this off season, the conclusions of the articles are hard to disregard.
Depressing View
705657405646350 wrote: I've been thinking about these articles through the weekend; they are the most concerning "evidence" presented to-date that the Pirates will not do what is necessary to finish a team to give it the best reasonable chance to win a pennant and WS. Whether it's true inability or placing profits over winning is the unknown.
What makes this article so concerning is the source: I'm pretty sure I'm correct when I say that WTM has always generally been a supporter of this FO. He's never been part of the Nutting is cheap choirs. To see him write this analysis is quite sobering.
It seems no one is buying Neal's explanation of The Trade. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, calm down even. But if WTM has no doubt it's an extraordinarily extraordinarily "costly" salary dump then I'm back to being alarmed and angry - the farm system is so critical to the Pirates they simply can't be giving resources away. Should it happen again I'd be hoping MLB would step in.
If this article is fundamentally correct, the only Q is "why"? If Bob Nutting is prioritizing profits over winning then he needs to sell. On the other hand, he's running the team in the only way to ensure long term visibility then we are AAAA and are playing for something less than 28 other teams. Either way, this is not good - if the foundation of the article is correct.
This is an article worthy of a response from the FO if it's off base. If this offseason is more of the same, it won't look good.
Very troubling....
I agree that this is a big off season. What are the Pirates going to do to make sure next year's pitching staff is better than this one? Looks like Glasnow cannot be penciled in to the rotation.
Next year has Cole, Taillon, Kuhl, Hutchison and Locke at the moment. Kingman and Williams in reserve. That is not likely a great rotation. To have a good pitching staff next year the Bucs are going to need to go outside and bring in somebody who is at least a couple steps up from Niese.
I think I fixed it
What makes this article so concerning is the source: I'm pretty sure I'm correct when I say that WTM has always generally been a supporter of this FO. He's never been part of the Nutting is cheap choirs. To see him write this analysis is quite sobering.
It seems no one is buying Neal's explanation of The Trade. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, calm down even. But if WTM has no doubt it's an extraordinarily extraordinarily "costly" salary dump then I'm back to being alarmed and angry - the farm system is so critical to the Pirates they simply can't be giving resources away. Should it happen again I'd be hoping MLB would step in.
If this article is fundamentally correct, the only Q is "why"? If Bob Nutting is prioritizing profits over winning then he needs to sell. On the other hand, he's running the team in the only way to ensure long term visibility then we are AAAA and are playing for something less than 28 other teams. Either way, this is not good - if the foundation of the article is correct.
This is an article worthy of a response from the FO if it's off base. If this offseason is more of the same, it won't look good.
Very troubling....
I agree that this is a big off season. What are the Pirates going to do to make sure next year's pitching staff is better than this one? Looks like Glasnow cannot be penciled in to the rotation.
Next year has Cole, Taillon, Kuhl, Hutchison and Locke at the moment. Kingman and Williams in reserve. That is not likely a great rotation. To have a good pitching staff next year the Bucs are going to need to go outside and bring in somebody who is at least a couple steps up from Niese.
I think I fixed it
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UtahPirate
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:36 pm
Depressing View
202731393720676B12353F333B3E7C313D3F520 wrote: Points the article made that I think are accurate:
1) the Pirates have, each of the past couple years, been content to be a very good team rather than reaching to be the best team. A couple additions and maybe the Pirates beat the royals last year.
98 wins and we weren't trying to be the best? That was one of the greatest seasons in Pittsburgh Pirate history. We dominated the AL in inter-league games. We ruled the NL West and East. The Cards had a totally epic season. In a game that prides itself in "series" we got a one game play-in against the hottest pitcher in baseball. Would KC have come out of that game? Had we won the Central, or if we had a 3 game series with the Cubs, who knows? Woulda, shoulda, coulda... But, respectfully, I just don't buy this claim that we weren't trying to be the best team in baseball last year.
1) the Pirates have, each of the past couple years, been content to be a very good team rather than reaching to be the best team. A couple additions and maybe the Pirates beat the royals last year.
98 wins and we weren't trying to be the best? That was one of the greatest seasons in Pittsburgh Pirate history. We dominated the AL in inter-league games. We ruled the NL West and East. The Cards had a totally epic season. In a game that prides itself in "series" we got a one game play-in against the hottest pitcher in baseball. Would KC have come out of that game? Had we won the Central, or if we had a 3 game series with the Cubs, who knows? Woulda, shoulda, coulda... But, respectfully, I just don't buy this claim that we weren't trying to be the best team in baseball last year.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3642
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Depressing View
5C7D686159607B687D6C090 wrote: Points the article made that I think are accurate:
1) the Pirates have, each of the past couple years, been content to be a very good team rather than reaching to be the best team. A couple additions and maybe the Pirates beat the royals last year.
98 wins and we weren't trying to be the best? That was one of the greatest seasons in Pittsburgh Pirate history. We dominated the AL in inter-league games. We ruled the NL West and East. The Cards had a totally epic season. In a game that prides itself in "series" we got a one game play-in against the hottest pitcher in baseball. Would KC have come out of that game? Had we won the Central, or if we had a 3 game series with the Cubs, who knows? Woulda, shoulda, coulda... But, respectfully, I just don't buy this claim that we weren't trying to be the best team in baseball last year.
I agree. I mean I'm pretty sure nobody here thinks that the Mets were the actual best team in the NL last season.
1) the Pirates have, each of the past couple years, been content to be a very good team rather than reaching to be the best team. A couple additions and maybe the Pirates beat the royals last year.
98 wins and we weren't trying to be the best? That was one of the greatest seasons in Pittsburgh Pirate history. We dominated the AL in inter-league games. We ruled the NL West and East. The Cards had a totally epic season. In a game that prides itself in "series" we got a one game play-in against the hottest pitcher in baseball. Would KC have come out of that game? Had we won the Central, or if we had a 3 game series with the Cubs, who knows? Woulda, shoulda, coulda... But, respectfully, I just don't buy this claim that we weren't trying to be the best team in baseball last year.
I agree. I mean I'm pretty sure nobody here thinks that the Mets were the actual best team in the NL last season.
Depressing View
4C7076706B62746D030 wrote: I've been thinking about these articles through the weekend; they are the most concerning "evidence" presented to-date that the Pirates will not do what is necessary to finish a team to give it the best reasonable chance to win a pennant and WS. Whether it's true inability or placing profits over winning is the unknown.
What makes this article so concerning is the source: I'm pretty sure I'm correct when I say that WTM has always generally been a supporter of this FO. He's never been part of the Nutting is cheap choirs. To see him write this analysis is quite sobering.
It seems no one is buying Neal's explanation of The Trade. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, calm down even. But if WTM has no doubt it's an extraordinarily extraordinarily "costly" salary dump then I'm back to being alarmed and angry - the farm system is so critical to the Pirates they simply can't be giving resources away. Should it happen again I'd be hoping MLB would step in.
If this article is fundamentally correct, the only Q is "why"? If Bob Nutting is prioritizing profits over winning then he needs to sell. On the other hand, he's running the team in the only way to ensure long term visibility then we are AAAA and are playing for something less than 28 other teams. Either way, this is not good - if the foundation of the article is correct.
This is an article worthy of a response from the FO if it's off base. If this offseason is more of the same, it won't look good.
Very troubling....
I agree that this is a big off season. What are the Pirates going to do to make sure next year's pitching staff is better than this one? Looks like Glasnow cannot be penciled in to the rotation.
Next year has Cole, Taillon, Kuhl, Hutchison and Locke at the moment. Kingman and Williams in reserve. That is not likely a great rotation. To have a good pitching staff next year the Bucs are going to need to go outside and bring in somebody who is at least a couple steps up from Niese.
I think I fixed it
Thanks, I feel a lot better now (not).
What makes this article so concerning is the source: I'm pretty sure I'm correct when I say that WTM has always generally been a supporter of this FO. He's never been part of the Nutting is cheap choirs. To see him write this analysis is quite sobering.
It seems no one is buying Neal's explanation of The Trade. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, calm down even. But if WTM has no doubt it's an extraordinarily extraordinarily "costly" salary dump then I'm back to being alarmed and angry - the farm system is so critical to the Pirates they simply can't be giving resources away. Should it happen again I'd be hoping MLB would step in.
If this article is fundamentally correct, the only Q is "why"? If Bob Nutting is prioritizing profits over winning then he needs to sell. On the other hand, he's running the team in the only way to ensure long term visibility then we are AAAA and are playing for something less than 28 other teams. Either way, this is not good - if the foundation of the article is correct.
This is an article worthy of a response from the FO if it's off base. If this offseason is more of the same, it won't look good.
Very troubling....
I agree that this is a big off season. What are the Pirates going to do to make sure next year's pitching staff is better than this one? Looks like Glasnow cannot be penciled in to the rotation.
Next year has Cole, Taillon, Kuhl, Hutchison and Locke at the moment. Kingman and Williams in reserve. That is not likely a great rotation. To have a good pitching staff next year the Bucs are going to need to go outside and bring in somebody who is at least a couple steps up from Niese.
I think I fixed it
Thanks, I feel a lot better now (not).
Depressing View
15342128102932213425400 wrote: Points the article made that I think are accurate:
1) the Pirates have, each of the past couple years, been content to be a very good team rather than reaching to be the best team. A couple additions and maybe the Pirates beat the royals last year.
98 wins and we weren't trying to be the best? That was one of the greatest seasons in Pittsburgh Pirate history. We dominated the AL in inter-league games. We ruled the NL West and East. The Cards had a totally epic season. In a game that prides itself in "series" we got a one game play-in against the hottest pitcher in baseball. Would KC have come out of that game? Had we won the Central, or if we had a 3 game series with the Cubs, who knows? Woulda, shoulda, coulda... But, respectfully, I just don't buy this claim that we weren't trying to be the best team in baseball last year.
I will say the Bucs tried last year too. Will not say the same for this year and don't know about next year yet.
1) the Pirates have, each of the past couple years, been content to be a very good team rather than reaching to be the best team. A couple additions and maybe the Pirates beat the royals last year.
98 wins and we weren't trying to be the best? That was one of the greatest seasons in Pittsburgh Pirate history. We dominated the AL in inter-league games. We ruled the NL West and East. The Cards had a totally epic season. In a game that prides itself in "series" we got a one game play-in against the hottest pitcher in baseball. Would KC have come out of that game? Had we won the Central, or if we had a 3 game series with the Cubs, who knows? Woulda, shoulda, coulda... But, respectfully, I just don't buy this claim that we weren't trying to be the best team in baseball last year.
I will say the Bucs tried last year too. Will not say the same for this year and don't know about next year yet.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Depressing View
59786D645C657E6D78690C0 wrote: Points the article made that I think are accurate:
1) the Pirates have, each of the past couple years, been content to be a very good team rather than reaching to be the best team. A couple additions and maybe the Pirates beat the royals last year.
98 wins and we weren't trying to be the best? That was one of the greatest seasons in Pittsburgh Pirate history. We dominated the AL in inter-league games. We ruled the NL West and East. The Cards had a totally epic season. In a game that prides itself in "series" we got a one game play-in against the hottest pitcher in baseball. Would KC have come out of that game? Had we won the Central, or if we had a 3 game series with the Cubs, who knows? Woulda, shoulda, coulda... But, respectfully, I just don't buy this claim that we weren't trying to be the best team in baseball last year.
I don't get that argument either. The Pirates added the second most to their payroll at the deadline too. The Cardinals were just better. Arietta was just better. That doesn't mean the Pirates didn't care or didn't try. They just got beat.
Why would they add more money to the payroll if they are just content? No one has ever answered that question. They also didn't have to extend any contracts and would save a poop load of money if they didn't care. That argument makes no sense.
1) the Pirates have, each of the past couple years, been content to be a very good team rather than reaching to be the best team. A couple additions and maybe the Pirates beat the royals last year.
98 wins and we weren't trying to be the best? That was one of the greatest seasons in Pittsburgh Pirate history. We dominated the AL in inter-league games. We ruled the NL West and East. The Cards had a totally epic season. In a game that prides itself in "series" we got a one game play-in against the hottest pitcher in baseball. Would KC have come out of that game? Had we won the Central, or if we had a 3 game series with the Cubs, who knows? Woulda, shoulda, coulda... But, respectfully, I just don't buy this claim that we weren't trying to be the best team in baseball last year.
I don't get that argument either. The Pirates added the second most to their payroll at the deadline too. The Cardinals were just better. Arietta was just better. That doesn't mean the Pirates didn't care or didn't try. They just got beat.
Why would they add more money to the payroll if they are just content? No one has ever answered that question. They also didn't have to extend any contracts and would save a poop load of money if they didn't care. That argument makes no sense.