7A4F5858536A58585354583D0 wrote: This team is not getting better under Cherington and the awful Shelton. The managerial moves are just awful, slowest runner leading off, then worst batting average hitter leading off, then resting your best player even while only playing 3 games in the same week. This is a royal mess and unwatchable. This team has hit rock bottom and is going nowhere with this current management team. I can't take it anymore.
We haven't agreed often. I agree with much of this, but particularly your first sentence. The question is- what, if anything, will be done to improve matters?
My biggest complaint under Nutting ownership hasn't been "money." It's the continuing lack of urgency. If losing isn't a big deal to its fans, then how can we expect winning to be a big deal for the franchise?
You can't collectively bargain for a sense of urgency. That has to come from the top of the organization. We don't have it in the Pirates organization.
I agree about the lack of urgency. There should be no need to have 5 and 7 year plans to produce a winner.
Ramblin Thoughts on a Tuesday
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
-
Bobster21
Ramblin Thoughts on a Tuesday
207660747B61717A776052757F737B7E3C71120 wrote: Reading through the comments above, I understand the frustration. We've been living through the nightmare that's the Pittsburgh Pirates since the end of the 1992 season. With the exception of the three playoff years, it's been historically awful.
However, I'm not sure why there's such anger and frustration now. We all know what Cherington is trying to achieve, all while being hamstrung by an owner who doesn't share BC's goal of winning. The two of them are operating in two different worlds.
There's only one way for BC to bring a winner to Pittsburgh: drafting, trading, and developing on the cheap. He's been here for two and a half years, one negated by a pandemic that suspended the development of some of the young players he's counting on to resurrect the organization. It's unreasonable to expect that the young acquisitions he's obtained would've been ready to be winning major league players in 2022. No GM in the history of baseball could've pulled that off.
I was curious about the roster BC inherited in November, 2019. There were some decent players who would be helping this current team, if they all agreed to stay. But after what we saw happen following the 2015 season, we know Nutting has no intention of ever signing players the likes Josh Bell, Adam Frazier, Joe Musgrove, Jacob Stallings, or Jameson Taillon to large enough contracts to keep them in Pittsburgh. So Cherington did what he knew - what we all knew - he had to do with those players.
For me, it's not worth it to be angered by what's taking place this year. I don't like the losing, either. But the objective is to get one more high draft pick in 2023. So far, all's going well in meeting that goal. Later this season and next, we'll begin to see BC's acquisitions arrive and the core of the next winning club begin to form. Sustaining the winning year after year (like Tampa does), under an owner like Nutting, will be the real trick.
I agree with you. In terms of team building, BC is doing the only things available to him for a team whose owner refuses to spend. It's frustrating to endure the terrible play while waiting in hopes the plan will work and there's no guarantee it will.
What makes me angry is that, even under the present conditions, i.e., "not ready for prime time," the Pirate baseball we are sitting through does not have to be as bad as it is. They could avoid deliberately weakening their lineups by resting their better players so often. They could avoid constructing bizarre lineups with Vogelbach or VanMeter batting leadoff. Or VanMeter batting 5th. They could have avoided playing Tucker so often when it was clear he couldn't hit MLB pitching. They could have avoided several situations where a SP was shutting down the other team but was inexplicably pulled and the BP blew the game.
Some of the things that make this team so difficult to watch are totally avoidable and unnecessary. I'm willing to follow the team through the lean years while waiting and hoping BC can turn it around. But in the meantime, all I ask is that they try their best to win with what they've got. But they aren't even doing that. They treat these games like it's still the Grapefruit League. It doesn't matter who plays or doesn't. Who pitches or doesn't or where a player bats in the order. Just run 'em out there and see what happens. I shouldn't be watching a 3B coach send the cumbersome Vogelbach home on a fly ball to medium RF and have him out by 15 feet. I shouldn't be watching Chavis lose a popup from 3B because Hayes is yet again being rested instead of playing. I expect this team to lose the majority of their games because of the talent gap between them and their opponents. Not because the decisions being made are counterproductive to winning. That's infuriating.
However, I'm not sure why there's such anger and frustration now. We all know what Cherington is trying to achieve, all while being hamstrung by an owner who doesn't share BC's goal of winning. The two of them are operating in two different worlds.
There's only one way for BC to bring a winner to Pittsburgh: drafting, trading, and developing on the cheap. He's been here for two and a half years, one negated by a pandemic that suspended the development of some of the young players he's counting on to resurrect the organization. It's unreasonable to expect that the young acquisitions he's obtained would've been ready to be winning major league players in 2022. No GM in the history of baseball could've pulled that off.
I was curious about the roster BC inherited in November, 2019. There were some decent players who would be helping this current team, if they all agreed to stay. But after what we saw happen following the 2015 season, we know Nutting has no intention of ever signing players the likes Josh Bell, Adam Frazier, Joe Musgrove, Jacob Stallings, or Jameson Taillon to large enough contracts to keep them in Pittsburgh. So Cherington did what he knew - what we all knew - he had to do with those players.
For me, it's not worth it to be angered by what's taking place this year. I don't like the losing, either. But the objective is to get one more high draft pick in 2023. So far, all's going well in meeting that goal. Later this season and next, we'll begin to see BC's acquisitions arrive and the core of the next winning club begin to form. Sustaining the winning year after year (like Tampa does), under an owner like Nutting, will be the real trick.
I agree with you. In terms of team building, BC is doing the only things available to him for a team whose owner refuses to spend. It's frustrating to endure the terrible play while waiting in hopes the plan will work and there's no guarantee it will.
What makes me angry is that, even under the present conditions, i.e., "not ready for prime time," the Pirate baseball we are sitting through does not have to be as bad as it is. They could avoid deliberately weakening their lineups by resting their better players so often. They could avoid constructing bizarre lineups with Vogelbach or VanMeter batting leadoff. Or VanMeter batting 5th. They could have avoided playing Tucker so often when it was clear he couldn't hit MLB pitching. They could have avoided several situations where a SP was shutting down the other team but was inexplicably pulled and the BP blew the game.
Some of the things that make this team so difficult to watch are totally avoidable and unnecessary. I'm willing to follow the team through the lean years while waiting and hoping BC can turn it around. But in the meantime, all I ask is that they try their best to win with what they've got. But they aren't even doing that. They treat these games like it's still the Grapefruit League. It doesn't matter who plays or doesn't. Who pitches or doesn't or where a player bats in the order. Just run 'em out there and see what happens. I shouldn't be watching a 3B coach send the cumbersome Vogelbach home on a fly ball to medium RF and have him out by 15 feet. I shouldn't be watching Chavis lose a popup from 3B because Hayes is yet again being rested instead of playing. I expect this team to lose the majority of their games because of the talent gap between them and their opponents. Not because the decisions being made are counterproductive to winning. That's infuriating.
-
GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Ramblin Thoughts on a Tuesday
I'll accept losing. It's part of life.
But, losing should lead to learning. We aren't from my perspective.
Poor scoring. I adequate pitching. THE worst RD in the game.
Among the most Errors.
This is absolutely systematic, and it is occurring under Cherington's watch.
How much is "Ben's Implementation," "Ben's hiring selections," "tge quality of coaching," "the player's skill level," "the players comprehension," I don't know.
What I know is that Cherington is responsible for some amount of it.
Of course, some is because of constraints placed upon him.
I put more on him. We shouldn't be losing this badly this often.
But, losing should lead to learning. We aren't from my perspective.
Poor scoring. I adequate pitching. THE worst RD in the game.
Among the most Errors.
This is absolutely systematic, and it is occurring under Cherington's watch.
How much is "Ben's Implementation," "Ben's hiring selections," "tge quality of coaching," "the player's skill level," "the players comprehension," I don't know.
What I know is that Cherington is responsible for some amount of it.
Of course, some is because of constraints placed upon him.
I put more on him. We shouldn't be losing this badly this often.
-
skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Ramblin Thoughts on a Tuesday
426F62737465723231000 wrote: Reading through the comments above, I understand the frustration. We've been living through the nightmare that's the Pittsburgh Pirates since the end of the 1992 season. With the exception of the three playoff years, it's been historically awful.
However, I'm not sure why there's such anger and frustration now. We all know what Cherington is trying to achieve, all while being hamstrung by an owner who doesn't share BC's goal of winning. The two of them are operating in two different worlds.
There's only one way for BC to bring a winner to Pittsburgh: drafting, trading, and developing on the cheap. He's been here for two and a half years, one negated by a pandemic that suspended the development of some of the young players he's counting on to resurrect the organization. It's unreasonable to expect that the young acquisitions he's obtained would've been ready to be winning major league players in 2022. No GM in the history of baseball could've pulled that off.
I was curious about the roster BC inherited in November, 2019. There were some decent players who would be helping this current team, if they all agreed to stay. But after what we saw happen following the 2015 season, we know Nutting has no intention of ever signing players the likes Josh Bell, Adam Frazier, Joe Musgrove, Jacob Stallings, or Jameson Taillon to large enough contracts to keep them in Pittsburgh. So Cherington did what he knew - what we all knew - he had to do with those players.
For me, it's not worth it to be angered by what's taking place this year. I don't like the losing, either. But the objective is to get one more high draft pick in 2023. So far, all's going well in meeting that goal. Later this season and next, we'll begin to see BC's acquisitions arrive and the core of the next winning club begin to form. Sustaining the winning year after year (like Tampa does), under an owner like Nutting, will be the real trick.
I agree with you. In terms of team building, BC is doing the only things available to him for a team whose owner refuses to spend. It's frustrating to endure the terrible play while waiting in hopes the plan will work and there's no guarantee it will.
What makes me angry is that, even under the present conditions, i.e., "not ready for prime time," the Pirate baseball we are sitting through does not have to be as bad as it is. They could avoid deliberately weakening their lineups by resting their better players so often. They could avoid constructing bizarre lineups with Vogelbach or VanMeter batting leadoff. Or VanMeter batting 5th. They could have avoided playing Tucker so often when it was clear he couldn't hit MLB pitching. They could have avoided several situations where a SP was shutting down the other team but was inexplicably pulled and the BP blew the game.
Some of the things that make this team so difficult to watch are totally avoidable and unnecessary. I'm willing to follow the team through the lean years while waiting and hoping BC can turn it around. But in the meantime, all I ask is that they try their best to win with what they've got. But they aren't even doing that. They treat these games like it's still the Grapefruit League. It doesn't matter who plays or doesn't. Who pitches or doesn't or where a player bats in the order. Just run 'em out there and see what happens. I shouldn't be watching a 3B coach send the cumbersome Vogelbach home on a fly ball to medium RF and have him out by 15 feet. I shouldn't be watching Chavis lose a popup from 3B because Hayes is yet again being rested instead of playing. I expect this team to lose the majority of their games because of the talent gap between them and their opponents. Not because the decisions being made are counterproductive to winning. That's infuriating.
The point is no matter what kind of talent we get with Cherington allowing or approving the way this team is being ran daily, he is another disaster of a GM. I don't know any other way to look at this disaster. The lineups being ran out daily should make every fan just shutter as this is no way to run a baseball team. It's more of a baseball version of the "Three Stooges", Nutting, Cherington and Shelton. It's time to realize the Emperior has no clothes. Cherington is allowing this abuse of Pirates fans, there's no other way to look at it.
However, I'm not sure why there's such anger and frustration now. We all know what Cherington is trying to achieve, all while being hamstrung by an owner who doesn't share BC's goal of winning. The two of them are operating in two different worlds.
There's only one way for BC to bring a winner to Pittsburgh: drafting, trading, and developing on the cheap. He's been here for two and a half years, one negated by a pandemic that suspended the development of some of the young players he's counting on to resurrect the organization. It's unreasonable to expect that the young acquisitions he's obtained would've been ready to be winning major league players in 2022. No GM in the history of baseball could've pulled that off.
I was curious about the roster BC inherited in November, 2019. There were some decent players who would be helping this current team, if they all agreed to stay. But after what we saw happen following the 2015 season, we know Nutting has no intention of ever signing players the likes Josh Bell, Adam Frazier, Joe Musgrove, Jacob Stallings, or Jameson Taillon to large enough contracts to keep them in Pittsburgh. So Cherington did what he knew - what we all knew - he had to do with those players.
For me, it's not worth it to be angered by what's taking place this year. I don't like the losing, either. But the objective is to get one more high draft pick in 2023. So far, all's going well in meeting that goal. Later this season and next, we'll begin to see BC's acquisitions arrive and the core of the next winning club begin to form. Sustaining the winning year after year (like Tampa does), under an owner like Nutting, will be the real trick.
I agree with you. In terms of team building, BC is doing the only things available to him for a team whose owner refuses to spend. It's frustrating to endure the terrible play while waiting in hopes the plan will work and there's no guarantee it will.
What makes me angry is that, even under the present conditions, i.e., "not ready for prime time," the Pirate baseball we are sitting through does not have to be as bad as it is. They could avoid deliberately weakening their lineups by resting their better players so often. They could avoid constructing bizarre lineups with Vogelbach or VanMeter batting leadoff. Or VanMeter batting 5th. They could have avoided playing Tucker so often when it was clear he couldn't hit MLB pitching. They could have avoided several situations where a SP was shutting down the other team but was inexplicably pulled and the BP blew the game.
Some of the things that make this team so difficult to watch are totally avoidable and unnecessary. I'm willing to follow the team through the lean years while waiting and hoping BC can turn it around. But in the meantime, all I ask is that they try their best to win with what they've got. But they aren't even doing that. They treat these games like it's still the Grapefruit League. It doesn't matter who plays or doesn't. Who pitches or doesn't or where a player bats in the order. Just run 'em out there and see what happens. I shouldn't be watching a 3B coach send the cumbersome Vogelbach home on a fly ball to medium RF and have him out by 15 feet. I shouldn't be watching Chavis lose a popup from 3B because Hayes is yet again being rested instead of playing. I expect this team to lose the majority of their games because of the talent gap between them and their opponents. Not because the decisions being made are counterproductive to winning. That's infuriating.
The point is no matter what kind of talent we get with Cherington allowing or approving the way this team is being ran daily, he is another disaster of a GM. I don't know any other way to look at this disaster. The lineups being ran out daily should make every fan just shutter as this is no way to run a baseball team. It's more of a baseball version of the "Three Stooges", Nutting, Cherington and Shelton. It's time to realize the Emperior has no clothes. Cherington is allowing this abuse of Pirates fans, there's no other way to look at it.
-
WildwoodDave2
Ramblin Thoughts on a Tuesday
40585A5D5D4A5B5C414056330 wrote: Reading through the comments above, I understand the frustration. We've been living through the nightmare that's the Pittsburgh Pirates since the end of the 1992 season. With the exception of the three playoff years, it's been historically awful.
However, I'm not sure why there's such anger and frustration now. We all know what Cherington is trying to achieve, all while being hamstrung by an owner who doesn't share BC's goal of winning. The two of them are operating in two different worlds.
There's only one way for BC to bring a winner to Pittsburgh: drafting, trading, and developing on the cheap. He's been here for two and a half years, one negated by a pandemic that suspended the development of some of the young players he's counting on to resurrect the organization. It's unreasonable to expect that the young acquisitions he's obtained would've been ready to be winning major league players in 2022. No GM in the history of baseball could've pulled that off.
I was curious about the roster BC inherited in November, 2019. There were some decent players who would be helping this current team, if they all agreed to stay. But after what we saw happen following the 2015 season, we know Nutting has no intention of ever signing players the likes Josh Bell, Adam Frazier, Joe Musgrove, Jacob Stallings, or Jameson Taillon to large enough contracts to keep them in Pittsburgh. So Cherington did what he knew - what we all knew - he had to do with those players.
For me, it's not worth it to be angered by what's taking place this year. I don't like the losing, either. But the objective is to get one more high draft pick in 2023. So far, all's going well in meeting that goal. Later this season and next, we'll begin to see BC's acquisitions arrive and the core of the next winning club begin to form. Sustaining the winning year after year (like Tampa does), under an owner like Nutting, will be the real trick.
I agree with you. In terms of team building, BC is doing the only things available to him for a team whose owner refuses to spend. It's frustrating to endure the terrible play while waiting in hopes the plan will work and there's no guarantee it will.
What makes me angry is that, even under the present conditions, i.e., "not ready for prime time," the Pirate baseball we are sitting through does not have to be as bad as it is. They could avoid deliberately weakening their lineups by resting their better players so often. They could avoid constructing bizarre lineups with Vogelbach or VanMeter batting leadoff. Or VanMeter batting 5th. They could have avoided playing Tucker so often when it was clear he couldn't hit MLB pitching. They could have avoided several situations where a SP was shutting down the other team but was inexplicably pulled and the BP blew the game.
Some of the things that make this team so difficult to watch are totally avoidable and unnecessary. I'm willing to follow the team through the lean years while waiting and hoping BC can turn it around. But in the meantime, all I ask is that they try their best to win with what they've got. But they aren't even doing that. They treat these games like it's still the Grapefruit League. It doesn't matter who plays or doesn't. Who pitches or doesn't or where a player bats in the order. Just run 'em out there and see what happens. I shouldn't be watching a 3B coach send the cumbersome Vogelbach home on a fly ball to medium RF and have him out by 15 feet. I shouldn't be watching Chavis lose a popup from 3B because Hayes is yet again being rested instead of playing. I expect this team to lose the majority of their games because of the talent gap between them and their opponents. Not because the decisions being made are counterproductive to winning. That's infuriating.
The point is no matter what kind of talent we get with Cherington allowing or approving the way this team is being ran daily, he is another disaster of a GM. I don't know any other way to look at this disaster. The lineups being ran out daily should make every fan just shutter as this is no way to run a baseball team. It's more of a baseball version of the "Three Stooges", Nutting, Cherington and Shelton. It's time to realize the Emperior has no clothes. Cherington is allowing this abuse of Pirates fans, there's no other way to look at it.
Waiting for Surg to weigh in on this ;D
However, I'm not sure why there's such anger and frustration now. We all know what Cherington is trying to achieve, all while being hamstrung by an owner who doesn't share BC's goal of winning. The two of them are operating in two different worlds.
There's only one way for BC to bring a winner to Pittsburgh: drafting, trading, and developing on the cheap. He's been here for two and a half years, one negated by a pandemic that suspended the development of some of the young players he's counting on to resurrect the organization. It's unreasonable to expect that the young acquisitions he's obtained would've been ready to be winning major league players in 2022. No GM in the history of baseball could've pulled that off.
I was curious about the roster BC inherited in November, 2019. There were some decent players who would be helping this current team, if they all agreed to stay. But after what we saw happen following the 2015 season, we know Nutting has no intention of ever signing players the likes Josh Bell, Adam Frazier, Joe Musgrove, Jacob Stallings, or Jameson Taillon to large enough contracts to keep them in Pittsburgh. So Cherington did what he knew - what we all knew - he had to do with those players.
For me, it's not worth it to be angered by what's taking place this year. I don't like the losing, either. But the objective is to get one more high draft pick in 2023. So far, all's going well in meeting that goal. Later this season and next, we'll begin to see BC's acquisitions arrive and the core of the next winning club begin to form. Sustaining the winning year after year (like Tampa does), under an owner like Nutting, will be the real trick.
I agree with you. In terms of team building, BC is doing the only things available to him for a team whose owner refuses to spend. It's frustrating to endure the terrible play while waiting in hopes the plan will work and there's no guarantee it will.
What makes me angry is that, even under the present conditions, i.e., "not ready for prime time," the Pirate baseball we are sitting through does not have to be as bad as it is. They could avoid deliberately weakening their lineups by resting their better players so often. They could avoid constructing bizarre lineups with Vogelbach or VanMeter batting leadoff. Or VanMeter batting 5th. They could have avoided playing Tucker so often when it was clear he couldn't hit MLB pitching. They could have avoided several situations where a SP was shutting down the other team but was inexplicably pulled and the BP blew the game.
Some of the things that make this team so difficult to watch are totally avoidable and unnecessary. I'm willing to follow the team through the lean years while waiting and hoping BC can turn it around. But in the meantime, all I ask is that they try their best to win with what they've got. But they aren't even doing that. They treat these games like it's still the Grapefruit League. It doesn't matter who plays or doesn't. Who pitches or doesn't or where a player bats in the order. Just run 'em out there and see what happens. I shouldn't be watching a 3B coach send the cumbersome Vogelbach home on a fly ball to medium RF and have him out by 15 feet. I shouldn't be watching Chavis lose a popup from 3B because Hayes is yet again being rested instead of playing. I expect this team to lose the majority of their games because of the talent gap between them and their opponents. Not because the decisions being made are counterproductive to winning. That's infuriating.
The point is no matter what kind of talent we get with Cherington allowing or approving the way this team is being ran daily, he is another disaster of a GM. I don't know any other way to look at this disaster. The lineups being ran out daily should make every fan just shutter as this is no way to run a baseball team. It's more of a baseball version of the "Three Stooges", Nutting, Cherington and Shelton. It's time to realize the Emperior has no clothes. Cherington is allowing this abuse of Pirates fans, there's no other way to look at it.
Waiting for Surg to weigh in on this ;D
-
2drfischer@gmail.c
Ramblin Thoughts on a Tuesday
032E23323524337370410 wrote: Reading through the comments above, I understand the frustration. We've been living through the nightmare that's the Pittsburgh Pirates since the end of the 1992 season. With the exception of the three playoff years, it's been historically awful.
However, I'm not sure why there's such anger and frustration now. We all know what Cherington is trying to achieve, all while being hamstrung by an owner who doesn't share BC's goal of winning. The two of them are operating in two different worlds.
There's only one way for BC to bring a winner to Pittsburgh: drafting, trading, and developing on the cheap. He's been here for two and a half years, one negated by a pandemic that suspended the development of some of the young players he's counting on to resurrect the organization. It's unreasonable to expect that the young acquisitions he's obtained would've been ready to be winning major league players in 2022. No GM in the history of baseball could've pulled that off.
I was curious about the roster BC inherited in November, 2019. There were some decent players who would be helping this current team, if they all agreed to stay. But after what we saw happen following the 2015 season, we know Nutting has no intention of ever signing players the likes Josh Bell, Adam Frazier, Joe Musgrove, Jacob Stallings, or Jameson Taillon to large enough contracts to keep them in Pittsburgh. So Cherington did what he knew - what we all knew - he had to do with those players.
For me, it's not worth it to be angered by what's taking place this year. I don't like the losing, either. But the objective is to get one more high draft pick in 2023. So far, all's going well in meeting that goal. Later this season and next, we'll begin to see BC's acquisitions arrive and the core of the next winning club begin to form. Sustaining the winning year after year (like Tampa does), under an owner like Nutting, will be the real trick.
I agree with you. In terms of team building, BC is doing the only things available to him for a team whose owner refuses to spend. It's frustrating to endure the terrible play while waiting in hopes the plan will work and there's no guarantee it will.
What makes me angry is that, even under the present conditions, i.e., "not ready for prime time," the Pirate baseball we are sitting through does not have to be as bad as it is. They could avoid deliberately weakening their lineups by resting their better players so often. They could avoid constructing bizarre lineups with Vogelbach or VanMeter batting leadoff. Or VanMeter batting 5th. They could have avoided playing Tucker so often when it was clear he couldn't hit MLB pitching. They could have avoided several situations where a SP was shutting down the other team but was inexplicably pulled and the BP blew the game.
Some of the things that make this team so difficult to watch are totally avoidable and unnecessary. I'm willing to follow the team through the lean years while waiting and hoping BC can turn it around. But in the meantime, all I ask is that they try their best to win with what they've got. But they aren't even doing that. They treat these games like it's still the Grapefruit League. It doesn't matter who plays or doesn't. Who pitches or doesn't or where a player bats in the order. Just run 'em out there and see what happens. I shouldn't be watching a 3B coach send the cumbersome Vogelbach home on a fly ball to medium RF and have him out by 15 feet. I shouldn't be watching Chavis lose a popup from 3B because Hayes is yet again being rested instead of playing. I expect this team to lose the majority of their games because of the talent gap between them and their opponents. Not because the decisions being made are counterproductive to winning. That's infuriating.
You get no argument from me. You wondered before if BC is ordering Shelton to manage the way he has been, or if he's relying on the dimwit to do what he expected him to do: manage stupidly. Either way, the Pirates are racing to the bottom, just where BC wants them to be come October.
I know there are no guarantees with the way BC is going about his plan. But, with Nutting, there's no other way. We all know that.
However, I'm not sure why there's such anger and frustration now. We all know what Cherington is trying to achieve, all while being hamstrung by an owner who doesn't share BC's goal of winning. The two of them are operating in two different worlds.
There's only one way for BC to bring a winner to Pittsburgh: drafting, trading, and developing on the cheap. He's been here for two and a half years, one negated by a pandemic that suspended the development of some of the young players he's counting on to resurrect the organization. It's unreasonable to expect that the young acquisitions he's obtained would've been ready to be winning major league players in 2022. No GM in the history of baseball could've pulled that off.
I was curious about the roster BC inherited in November, 2019. There were some decent players who would be helping this current team, if they all agreed to stay. But after what we saw happen following the 2015 season, we know Nutting has no intention of ever signing players the likes Josh Bell, Adam Frazier, Joe Musgrove, Jacob Stallings, or Jameson Taillon to large enough contracts to keep them in Pittsburgh. So Cherington did what he knew - what we all knew - he had to do with those players.
For me, it's not worth it to be angered by what's taking place this year. I don't like the losing, either. But the objective is to get one more high draft pick in 2023. So far, all's going well in meeting that goal. Later this season and next, we'll begin to see BC's acquisitions arrive and the core of the next winning club begin to form. Sustaining the winning year after year (like Tampa does), under an owner like Nutting, will be the real trick.
I agree with you. In terms of team building, BC is doing the only things available to him for a team whose owner refuses to spend. It's frustrating to endure the terrible play while waiting in hopes the plan will work and there's no guarantee it will.
What makes me angry is that, even under the present conditions, i.e., "not ready for prime time," the Pirate baseball we are sitting through does not have to be as bad as it is. They could avoid deliberately weakening their lineups by resting their better players so often. They could avoid constructing bizarre lineups with Vogelbach or VanMeter batting leadoff. Or VanMeter batting 5th. They could have avoided playing Tucker so often when it was clear he couldn't hit MLB pitching. They could have avoided several situations where a SP was shutting down the other team but was inexplicably pulled and the BP blew the game.
Some of the things that make this team so difficult to watch are totally avoidable and unnecessary. I'm willing to follow the team through the lean years while waiting and hoping BC can turn it around. But in the meantime, all I ask is that they try their best to win with what they've got. But they aren't even doing that. They treat these games like it's still the Grapefruit League. It doesn't matter who plays or doesn't. Who pitches or doesn't or where a player bats in the order. Just run 'em out there and see what happens. I shouldn't be watching a 3B coach send the cumbersome Vogelbach home on a fly ball to medium RF and have him out by 15 feet. I shouldn't be watching Chavis lose a popup from 3B because Hayes is yet again being rested instead of playing. I expect this team to lose the majority of their games because of the talent gap between them and their opponents. Not because the decisions being made are counterproductive to winning. That's infuriating.
You get no argument from me. You wondered before if BC is ordering Shelton to manage the way he has been, or if he's relying on the dimwit to do what he expected him to do: manage stupidly. Either way, the Pirates are racing to the bottom, just where BC wants them to be come October.
I know there are no guarantees with the way BC is going about his plan. But, with Nutting, there's no other way. We all know that.
Ramblin Thoughts on a Tuesday
VanMeter may get to catch more too with Perez out for year. Kendall may have to suit up.
-
JollyRoger
- Posts: 1469
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm
Ramblin Thoughts on a Tuesday
I have been a Nutting basher since the day he took over the majority ownership. He has done nothing to change my mind.
A fish rots from the head down and he is still the number 1 reason for the failure of this franchise gaining respectability.
As for Shelton; he is definitely the worst manager I have witnessed in my 55 years of following the Bucs with the exception of John Russell who was a walking zombie. I don’t understand Shelton’s methods or madness. It defies logic.
On the other hand; I believe in BC. We all know he is handcuffed by the owner, but he has proven to be an astute drafter and has greatly improved the minor league organization. I believe his prospects will soon arrive to lead a resurgence of the ML club.
I truly believe we will be a playoff contender starting in 2024 and our window will last longer than 3 years. Not because Nutting will invest more in the team (he won’t) but because I believe BC will keep the prospects stream flowing to the ML team. He may have to trade some of our best players before they reach free agency in order to keep the prospect pipeline full. But that is the way a TB or Pittsburgh can remain competitive
A fish rots from the head down and he is still the number 1 reason for the failure of this franchise gaining respectability.
As for Shelton; he is definitely the worst manager I have witnessed in my 55 years of following the Bucs with the exception of John Russell who was a walking zombie. I don’t understand Shelton’s methods or madness. It defies logic.
On the other hand; I believe in BC. We all know he is handcuffed by the owner, but he has proven to be an astute drafter and has greatly improved the minor league organization. I believe his prospects will soon arrive to lead a resurgence of the ML club.
I truly believe we will be a playoff contender starting in 2024 and our window will last longer than 3 years. Not because Nutting will invest more in the team (he won’t) but because I believe BC will keep the prospects stream flowing to the ML team. He may have to trade some of our best players before they reach free agency in order to keep the prospect pipeline full. But that is the way a TB or Pittsburgh can remain competitive
-
WildwoodDave2
Ramblin Thoughts on a Tuesday
2B0E0D0D18330E060413610 wrote: I have been a Nutting basher since the day he took over the majority ownership. He has done nothing to change my mind.
A fish rots from the head down and he is still the number 1 reason for the failure of this franchise gaining respectability.
As for Shelton; he is definitely the worst manager I have witnessed in my 55 years of following the Bucs with the exception of John Russell who was a walking zombie. I don’t understand Shelton’s methods or madness. It defies logic.
On the other hand; I believe in BC. We all know he is handcuffed by the owner, but he has proven to be an astute drafter and has greatly improved the minor league organization. I believe his prospects will soon arrive to lead a resurgence of the ML club.
I truly believe we will be a playoff contender starting in 2024 and our window will last longer than 3 years. Not because Nutting will invest more in the team (he won’t) but because I believe BC will keep the prospects stream flowing to the ML team. He may have to trade some of our best players before they reach free agency in order to keep the prospect pipeline full. But that is the way a TB or Pittsburgh can remain competitive
I agree with everything you said. Especially your opinion of Cherington. He is not worried about a sense of urgency
A fish rots from the head down and he is still the number 1 reason for the failure of this franchise gaining respectability.
As for Shelton; he is definitely the worst manager I have witnessed in my 55 years of following the Bucs with the exception of John Russell who was a walking zombie. I don’t understand Shelton’s methods or madness. It defies logic.
On the other hand; I believe in BC. We all know he is handcuffed by the owner, but he has proven to be an astute drafter and has greatly improved the minor league organization. I believe his prospects will soon arrive to lead a resurgence of the ML club.
I truly believe we will be a playoff contender starting in 2024 and our window will last longer than 3 years. Not because Nutting will invest more in the team (he won’t) but because I believe BC will keep the prospects stream flowing to the ML team. He may have to trade some of our best players before they reach free agency in order to keep the prospect pipeline full. But that is the way a TB or Pittsburgh can remain competitive
I agree with everything you said. Especially your opinion of Cherington. He is not worried about a sense of urgency
-
johnfluharty
Ramblin Thoughts on a Tuesday
002526263318252D2F384A0 wrote: I have been a Nutting basher since the day he took over the majority ownership. He has done nothing to change my mind.
A fish rots from the head down and he is still the number 1 reason for the failure of this franchise gaining respectability.
As for Shelton; he is definitely the worst manager I have witnessed in my 55 years of following the Bucs with the exception of John Russell who was a walking zombie. I don’t understand Shelton’s methods or madness. It defies logic.
On the other hand; I believe in BC. We all know he is handcuffed by the owner, but he has proven to be an astute drafter and has greatly improved the minor league organization. I believe his prospects will soon arrive to lead a resurgence of the ML club.
I truly believe we will be a playoff contender starting in 2024 and our window will last longer than 3 years. Not because Nutting will invest more in the team (he won’t) but because I believe BC will keep the prospects stream flowing to the ML team. He may have to trade some of our best players before they reach free agency in order to keep the prospect pipeline full. But that is the way a TB or Pittsburgh can remain competitive
Excellent post. One thing it has to be proven out yet with BC is the minor league development system. Right now Greensboro guys are collectively hitting like a bunch of pitchers, but the season is young so we'll see.
A fish rots from the head down and he is still the number 1 reason for the failure of this franchise gaining respectability.
As for Shelton; he is definitely the worst manager I have witnessed in my 55 years of following the Bucs with the exception of John Russell who was a walking zombie. I don’t understand Shelton’s methods or madness. It defies logic.
On the other hand; I believe in BC. We all know he is handcuffed by the owner, but he has proven to be an astute drafter and has greatly improved the minor league organization. I believe his prospects will soon arrive to lead a resurgence of the ML club.
I truly believe we will be a playoff contender starting in 2024 and our window will last longer than 3 years. Not because Nutting will invest more in the team (he won’t) but because I believe BC will keep the prospects stream flowing to the ML team. He may have to trade some of our best players before they reach free agency in order to keep the prospect pipeline full. But that is the way a TB or Pittsburgh can remain competitive
Excellent post. One thing it has to be proven out yet with BC is the minor league development system. Right now Greensboro guys are collectively hitting like a bunch of pitchers, but the season is young so we'll see.