79727A767372692C2A5D647C757272337E721D0 wrote: They turned around 15 years of losing. Why can't they turn around two years of losing?
I still have no idea what Coonelly does as President.
Take a trip to spring training next year and ask him. He's always around the intrasquad games
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Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
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290C0F0F1A310C040611630 wrote: Ok, at least you have a reason. Not sure I agree. I do give Huntington the benefit of the doubt based on how bad the system was when he took over. I did expect more time to make the team into a winner. I understand if others don't think that way.
Hurdle does have a winning record as the Pirates' manager. In seven years he has had three winning seasons and an overall winning percentage of .515*. (*Baseball Reference)
Very bad season endings in 2011 and 2012. I am not sure what happened those years, but I kind of chalk those seasons up as rebuilding years. Yes, the last two years have been bad. Hurdle should be better, but watching the playoffs and all these moves, every manager seems to do some bad strategies/moves. Even the "best" ones.
I do think Huntington did a very good job by surrounding McCutchen with talent. One player in baseball can't do it all.
Huntington needs to draft better. That's his biggest issue in my opinion. Only a few impact (starters, successful) players through the draft. This needs to improve. But he has done it before. He was given a chance to get back to being a contender, so we will see.
Sorry Skinny; I have to agree with Dog on this. He has his facts straight; you do not
Sooooooooo you want to pick out years to help Hurdle's record look better well try this the last 2 year Hurdle has a .474 vs. his lifetime of .488. You can try and make Hurdle look better but there's no way you can make this guy into anything but a loser.
Better yet look at NH record he has a .423 record. Soooooo looks like some on here just like losing. This team future is ugly with this type of management. Nutting needs to demand better results, something I would do before I would put anymore money in this team. Time to fire the guys at the top and get some real baseball people to run this club or it's going to get uglier. You can bury your head in the sand but I chose to look at this team for what it really is, a team in need of great leadership.
Hurdle does have a winning record as the Pirates' manager. In seven years he has had three winning seasons and an overall winning percentage of .515*. (*Baseball Reference)
Very bad season endings in 2011 and 2012. I am not sure what happened those years, but I kind of chalk those seasons up as rebuilding years. Yes, the last two years have been bad. Hurdle should be better, but watching the playoffs and all these moves, every manager seems to do some bad strategies/moves. Even the "best" ones.
I do think Huntington did a very good job by surrounding McCutchen with talent. One player in baseball can't do it all.
Huntington needs to draft better. That's his biggest issue in my opinion. Only a few impact (starters, successful) players through the draft. This needs to improve. But he has done it before. He was given a chance to get back to being a contender, so we will see.
Sorry Skinny; I have to agree with Dog on this. He has his facts straight; you do not
Sooooooooo you want to pick out years to help Hurdle's record look better well try this the last 2 year Hurdle has a .474 vs. his lifetime of .488. You can try and make Hurdle look better but there's no way you can make this guy into anything but a loser.
Better yet look at NH record he has a .423 record. Soooooo looks like some on here just like losing. This team future is ugly with this type of management. Nutting needs to demand better results, something I would do before I would put anymore money in this team. Time to fire the guys at the top and get some real baseball people to run this club or it's going to get uglier. You can bury your head in the sand but I chose to look at this team for what it really is, a team in need of great leadership.
TV Ratings
445C5E59594E5F58454452370 wrote: Ok, at least you have a reason. Not sure I agree. I do give Huntington the benefit of the doubt based on how bad the system was when he took over. I did expect more time to make the team into a winner. I understand if others don't think that way.
Hurdle does have a winning record as the Pirates' manager. In seven years he has had three winning seasons and an overall winning percentage of .515*. (*Baseball Reference)
Very bad season endings in 2011 and 2012. I am not sure what happened those years, but I kind of chalk those seasons up as rebuilding years. Yes, the last two years have been bad. Hurdle should be better, but watching the playoffs and all these moves, every manager seems to do some bad strategies/moves. Even the "best" ones.
I do think Huntington did a very good job by surrounding McCutchen with talent. One player in baseball can't do it all.
Huntington needs to draft better. That's his biggest issue in my opinion. Only a few impact (starters, successful) players through the draft. This needs to improve. But he has done it before. He was given a chance to get back to being a contender, so we will see.
Sorry Skinny; I have to agree with Dog on this. He has his facts straight; you do not
Sooooooooo you want to pick out years to help Hurdle's record look better well try this the last 2 year Hurdle has a .474 vs. his lifetime of .488. You can try and make Hurdle look better but there's no way you can make this guy into anything but a loser.
Better yet look at NH record he has a .423 record. Soooooo looks like some on here just like losing. This team future is ugly with this type of management. Nutting needs to demand better results, something I would do before I would put anymore money in this team. Time to clean house.
any MORE money? you could hardly commit less over a 5 year span as an MLB owner
Hurdle does have a winning record as the Pirates' manager. In seven years he has had three winning seasons and an overall winning percentage of .515*. (*Baseball Reference)
Very bad season endings in 2011 and 2012. I am not sure what happened those years, but I kind of chalk those seasons up as rebuilding years. Yes, the last two years have been bad. Hurdle should be better, but watching the playoffs and all these moves, every manager seems to do some bad strategies/moves. Even the "best" ones.
I do think Huntington did a very good job by surrounding McCutchen with talent. One player in baseball can't do it all.
Huntington needs to draft better. That's his biggest issue in my opinion. Only a few impact (starters, successful) players through the draft. This needs to improve. But he has done it before. He was given a chance to get back to being a contender, so we will see.
Sorry Skinny; I have to agree with Dog on this. He has his facts straight; you do not
Sooooooooo you want to pick out years to help Hurdle's record look better well try this the last 2 year Hurdle has a .474 vs. his lifetime of .488. You can try and make Hurdle look better but there's no way you can make this guy into anything but a loser.
Better yet look at NH record he has a .423 record. Soooooo looks like some on here just like losing. This team future is ugly with this type of management. Nutting needs to demand better results, something I would do before I would put anymore money in this team. Time to clean house.
any MORE money? you could hardly commit less over a 5 year span as an MLB owner
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
TV Ratings
687072757562737469687E1B0 wrote: Ok, at least you have a reason. Not sure I agree. I do give Huntington the benefit of the doubt based on how bad the system was when he took over. I did expect more time to make the team into a winner. I understand if others don't think that way.
Hurdle does have a winning record as the Pirates' manager. In seven years he has had three winning seasons and an overall winning percentage of .515*. (*Baseball Reference)
Very bad season endings in 2011 and 2012. I am not sure what happened those years, but I kind of chalk those seasons up as rebuilding years. Yes, the last two years have been bad. Hurdle should be better, but watching the playoffs and all these moves, every manager seems to do some bad strategies/moves. Even the "best" ones.
I do think Huntington did a very good job by surrounding McCutchen with talent. One player in baseball can't do it all.
Huntington needs to draft better. That's his biggest issue in my opinion. Only a few impact (starters, successful) players through the draft. This needs to improve. But he has done it before. He was given a chance to get back to being a contender, so we will see.
Sorry Skinny; I have to agree with Dog on this. He has his facts straight; you do not
Sooooooooo you want to pick out years to help Hurdle's record look better well try this the last 2 year Hurdle has a .474 vs. his lifetime of .488. You can try and make Hurdle look better but there's no way you can make this guy into anything but a loser.
Better yet look at NH record he has a .423 record. Soooooo looks like some on here just like losing. This team future is ugly with this type of management. Nutting needs to demand better results, something I would do before I would put anymore money in this team. Time to fire the guys at the top and get some real baseball people to run this club or it's going to get uglier. You can bury your head in the sand but I chose to look at this team for what it really is, a team in need of great leadership.
No, it isn't picking and choosing what years to look at, it is understanding the situation when this management team was put in place. The system and team was really, really bad. It took more time than usual to rebuild based on that. People bring up that they been in place for 10 years. I get that, but the first few years were starting from scratch. In my opinion, they did a great job and ended a very bad losing streak. They even made the playoffs three years in a row.
I am disappointed in the drafting. I know it takes years for guys to develop, but other teams are getting huge impacts. Like, better than Bell's season. I think Meadows is next to make the jump, but I don't see Bellenger or Judge type results/impact in him.
It has nothing to do with liking to lose. This management team won before. Yes, I think they can do it again. They only have a few years to turn it around. So far, the good outweighs the bad for me. If more bad happens (like the last two years), I will want them replaced too.
Hurdle does have a winning record as the Pirates' manager. In seven years he has had three winning seasons and an overall winning percentage of .515*. (*Baseball Reference)
Very bad season endings in 2011 and 2012. I am not sure what happened those years, but I kind of chalk those seasons up as rebuilding years. Yes, the last two years have been bad. Hurdle should be better, but watching the playoffs and all these moves, every manager seems to do some bad strategies/moves. Even the "best" ones.
I do think Huntington did a very good job by surrounding McCutchen with talent. One player in baseball can't do it all.
Huntington needs to draft better. That's his biggest issue in my opinion. Only a few impact (starters, successful) players through the draft. This needs to improve. But he has done it before. He was given a chance to get back to being a contender, so we will see.
Sorry Skinny; I have to agree with Dog on this. He has his facts straight; you do not
Sooooooooo you want to pick out years to help Hurdle's record look better well try this the last 2 year Hurdle has a .474 vs. his lifetime of .488. You can try and make Hurdle look better but there's no way you can make this guy into anything but a loser.
Better yet look at NH record he has a .423 record. Soooooo looks like some on here just like losing. This team future is ugly with this type of management. Nutting needs to demand better results, something I would do before I would put anymore money in this team. Time to fire the guys at the top and get some real baseball people to run this club or it's going to get uglier. You can bury your head in the sand but I chose to look at this team for what it really is, a team in need of great leadership.
No, it isn't picking and choosing what years to look at, it is understanding the situation when this management team was put in place. The system and team was really, really bad. It took more time than usual to rebuild based on that. People bring up that they been in place for 10 years. I get that, but the first few years were starting from scratch. In my opinion, they did a great job and ended a very bad losing streak. They even made the playoffs three years in a row.
I am disappointed in the drafting. I know it takes years for guys to develop, but other teams are getting huge impacts. Like, better than Bell's season. I think Meadows is next to make the jump, but I don't see Bellenger or Judge type results/impact in him.
It has nothing to do with liking to lose. This management team won before. Yes, I think they can do it again. They only have a few years to turn it around. So far, the good outweighs the bad for me. If more bad happens (like the last two years), I will want them replaced too.
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Bobster21
TV Ratings
68636B676263783D3B4C756D646363226F630C0 wrote: Ok, at least you have a reason. Not sure I agree. I do give Huntington the benefit of the doubt based on how bad the system was when he took over. I did expect more time to make the team into a winner. I understand if others don't think that way.
Hurdle does have a winning record as the Pirates' manager. In seven years he has had three winning seasons and an overall winning percentage of .515*. (*Baseball Reference)
Very bad season endings in 2011 and 2012. I am not sure what happened those years, but I kind of chalk those seasons up as rebuilding years. Yes, the last two years have been bad. Hurdle should be better, but watching the playoffs and all these moves, every manager seems to do some bad strategies/moves. Even the "best" ones.
I do think Huntington did a very good job by surrounding McCutchen with talent. One player in baseball can't do it all.
Huntington needs to draft better. That's his biggest issue in my opinion. Only a few impact (starters, successful) players through the draft. This needs to improve. But he has done it before. He was given a chance to get back to being a contender, so we will see.
Sorry Skinny; I have to agree with Dog on this. He has his facts straight; you do not
Sooooooooo you want to pick out years to help Hurdle's record look better well try this the last 2 year Hurdle has a .474 vs. his lifetime of .488. You can try and make Hurdle look better but there's no way you can make this guy into anything but a loser.
Better yet look at NH record he has a .423 record. Soooooo looks like some on here just like losing. This team future is ugly with this type of management. Nutting needs to demand better results, something I would do before I would put anymore money in this team. Time to fire the guys at the top and get some real baseball people to run this club or it's going to get uglier. You can bury your head in the sand but I chose to look at this team for what it really is, a team in need of great leadership.
No, it isn't picking and choosing what years to look at, it is understanding the situation when this management team was put in place. The system and team was really, really bad. It took more time than usual to rebuild based on that. People bring up that they been in place for 10 years. I get that, but the first few years were starting from scratch. In my opinion, they did a great job and ended a very bad losing streak. They even made the playoffs three years in a row.
I am disappointed in the drafting. I know it takes years for guys to develop, but other teams are getting huge impacts. Like, better than Bell's season. I think Meadows is next to make the jump, but I don't see Bellenger or Judge type results/impact in him.
It has nothing to do with liking to lose. This management team won before. Yes, I think they can do it again. They only have a few years to turn it around. So far, the good outweighs the bad for me. If more bad happens (like the last two years), I will want them replaced too.
I think there are 2 distinct phases involved in rebuilding a losing franchise into a contender. NH took over a terrible team with a bad farm system. He improved the franchise through drafting and trading veterans for prospects and they became a winning team. That phase was done well.
The second phase involves taking a winning team and and making them into a championship caliber team. That doesn't happen just with maturing prospects. It requires addressing the remaining needs with productive veterans. This is the phase the Pirates are not doing well. They restrict themselves to reclamation projects and lower tier FAs.
So I don't think it's accurate to say NH did it once so he can do it again. What he accomplished was the first phase of rebuilding. He has not proven able to accomplish the 2nd phase, largely because he doesn't seem to have the financial backing of Nutting to do it.
Hurdle does have a winning record as the Pirates' manager. In seven years he has had three winning seasons and an overall winning percentage of .515*. (*Baseball Reference)
Very bad season endings in 2011 and 2012. I am not sure what happened those years, but I kind of chalk those seasons up as rebuilding years. Yes, the last two years have been bad. Hurdle should be better, but watching the playoffs and all these moves, every manager seems to do some bad strategies/moves. Even the "best" ones.
I do think Huntington did a very good job by surrounding McCutchen with talent. One player in baseball can't do it all.
Huntington needs to draft better. That's his biggest issue in my opinion. Only a few impact (starters, successful) players through the draft. This needs to improve. But he has done it before. He was given a chance to get back to being a contender, so we will see.
Sorry Skinny; I have to agree with Dog on this. He has his facts straight; you do not
Sooooooooo you want to pick out years to help Hurdle's record look better well try this the last 2 year Hurdle has a .474 vs. his lifetime of .488. You can try and make Hurdle look better but there's no way you can make this guy into anything but a loser.
Better yet look at NH record he has a .423 record. Soooooo looks like some on here just like losing. This team future is ugly with this type of management. Nutting needs to demand better results, something I would do before I would put anymore money in this team. Time to fire the guys at the top and get some real baseball people to run this club or it's going to get uglier. You can bury your head in the sand but I chose to look at this team for what it really is, a team in need of great leadership.
No, it isn't picking and choosing what years to look at, it is understanding the situation when this management team was put in place. The system and team was really, really bad. It took more time than usual to rebuild based on that. People bring up that they been in place for 10 years. I get that, but the first few years were starting from scratch. In my opinion, they did a great job and ended a very bad losing streak. They even made the playoffs three years in a row.
I am disappointed in the drafting. I know it takes years for guys to develop, but other teams are getting huge impacts. Like, better than Bell's season. I think Meadows is next to make the jump, but I don't see Bellenger or Judge type results/impact in him.
It has nothing to do with liking to lose. This management team won before. Yes, I think they can do it again. They only have a few years to turn it around. So far, the good outweighs the bad for me. If more bad happens (like the last two years), I will want them replaced too.
I think there are 2 distinct phases involved in rebuilding a losing franchise into a contender. NH took over a terrible team with a bad farm system. He improved the franchise through drafting and trading veterans for prospects and they became a winning team. That phase was done well.
The second phase involves taking a winning team and and making them into a championship caliber team. That doesn't happen just with maturing prospects. It requires addressing the remaining needs with productive veterans. This is the phase the Pirates are not doing well. They restrict themselves to reclamation projects and lower tier FAs.
So I don't think it's accurate to say NH did it once so he can do it again. What he accomplished was the first phase of rebuilding. He has not proven able to accomplish the 2nd phase, largely because he doesn't seem to have the financial backing of Nutting to do it.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
TV Ratings
I don't totally agree with that. Most of the guys he traded for and brought in were successful. They helped those three winning teams. They just didn't win it all and people think they failed. Yes, to a point. But they could have easily advanced like the other teams did too. So, he did have success bringing in other pieces to fill in holes. I think he can do that again.
TV Ratings
4D464E4247465D181E695048414646074A46290 wrote: But This management team won before. Yes, I think they can do it again.
You've said that. And you keep saying that. But what you haven't said is how they are going to do it again. I ask because I believe it's a massive over simplification to simply say that. If you choose not to be more objective or look deeper, that's fine. But don't expect others to accept your premise. I believe one needs to use more critical thinking skills to properly evaluate how they did it, what happened since, what's currently happening and how they can win again.
I you can't answer it, that's okay. I don't believe the type of analysis can be done by most casual fans. But as I said, I will challenge your premise and state it's naive.
You've said that. And you keep saying that. But what you haven't said is how they are going to do it again. I ask because I believe it's a massive over simplification to simply say that. If you choose not to be more objective or look deeper, that's fine. But don't expect others to accept your premise. I believe one needs to use more critical thinking skills to properly evaluate how they did it, what happened since, what's currently happening and how they can win again.
I you can't answer it, that's okay. I don't believe the type of analysis can be done by most casual fans. But as I said, I will challenge your premise and state it's naive.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
TV Ratings
5F7F6C71701E0 wrote: But This management team won before. Yes, I think they can do it again.
You've said that. And you keep saying that. But what you haven't said is how they are going to do it again. I ask because I believe it's a massive over simplification to simply say that. If you choose not to be more objective or look deeper, that's fine. But don't expect others to accept your premise. I believe one needs to use more critical thinking skills to properly evaluate how they did it, what happened since, what's currently happening and how they can win again.
I you can't answer it, that's okay. I don't believe the type of analysis can be done by most casual fans. But as I said, I will challenge your premise and state it's naive.
You are chopping up my quotes. I have said many times why I think they can do it again.
My last post was on how Huntington brought in veterans to go with the core. He signed and traded for the right guys and they won. Why can't he do that again? He has done that more times than not.
You've said that. And you keep saying that. But what you haven't said is how they are going to do it again. I ask because I believe it's a massive over simplification to simply say that. If you choose not to be more objective or look deeper, that's fine. But don't expect others to accept your premise. I believe one needs to use more critical thinking skills to properly evaluate how they did it, what happened since, what's currently happening and how they can win again.
I you can't answer it, that's okay. I don't believe the type of analysis can be done by most casual fans. But as I said, I will challenge your premise and state it's naive.
You are chopping up my quotes. I have said many times why I think they can do it again.
My last post was on how Huntington brought in veterans to go with the core. He signed and traded for the right guys and they won. Why can't he do that again? He has done that more times than not.
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Bobster21
TV Ratings
414A424E4B4A511412655C444D4A4A0B464A250 wrote: I don't totally agree with that. Most of the guys he traded for and brought in were successful. They helped those three winning teams. They just didn't win it all and people think they failed. Yes, to a point. But they could have easily advanced like the other teams did too. So, he did have success bringing in other pieces to fill in holes. I think he can do that again.
He's had some success in bringing in veterans but the method is very risky.
Grilli appeared to be washed up when they got him and Meloncon was coming off a horrible season for Boston.
The Yankees didn't keep Russell Martin after his BA had slipped from each season from a high of .293 in 2007 to a low of .211 when the Bucs acquired him for 2013. But it was a very good move because of his defense and leadership.
Volquez was signed after several poor seasons limited demand for him and he signed relatively cheaply.
When they got Burnett he was 36 and coming off 2 very bad seasons for NY. And NY paid most of his salary.
When they got Liriano he was coming off 2 very bad seasons. He was not in demand and signed cheap.
When they got Happ it was only because of Burnett's injury and Happ had been a below average pitcher for years and was in the midst of another one with Seattle.
David Freese was acquired at age 33 when he seemed to be on the downside of his career and his BA had dropped 4 consecutive years.
These acquisitions all have one thing in common. The players were coming off unproductive years. Not one of them was stepping into a situation where it was hoped they would continue what they were doing. All were acquired in the hopes that they would significantly exceed expectations. The only partial exception is Martin who was a very skilled catcher but it was hoped his hitting would go back to how it had been in previous years.
So if we give NH the benefit of the doubt and credit him with genius moves no other GM could make, how do we explain other acquisitions that didn't work out? Barajas. McGehee. Gaby Sanchez. Ronny Cedeno. Lyle Overbay. Jose Tabata. James McDonald. Clint Barmes. Ike Davis. Erik Bedard. Ernesto Frieri. John Jaso. Jon Niese. Ryan Vogelsong. Daniel Hudson.
Rather than genius, the strategy seems to be that if they bring in enough declining players, some will be productive. It's risky because while some of the players do revive their careers and become assets, others continue to be unproductive and hurt the team. I'm not willing to credit NH with doing a fine job of filling holes from outside the organization to build a championship caliber team when the method is to bring in recently unproductive players and hope they exceed expectations. Some do and too many times they don't.
He's had some success in bringing in veterans but the method is very risky.
Grilli appeared to be washed up when they got him and Meloncon was coming off a horrible season for Boston.
The Yankees didn't keep Russell Martin after his BA had slipped from each season from a high of .293 in 2007 to a low of .211 when the Bucs acquired him for 2013. But it was a very good move because of his defense and leadership.
Volquez was signed after several poor seasons limited demand for him and he signed relatively cheaply.
When they got Burnett he was 36 and coming off 2 very bad seasons for NY. And NY paid most of his salary.
When they got Liriano he was coming off 2 very bad seasons. He was not in demand and signed cheap.
When they got Happ it was only because of Burnett's injury and Happ had been a below average pitcher for years and was in the midst of another one with Seattle.
David Freese was acquired at age 33 when he seemed to be on the downside of his career and his BA had dropped 4 consecutive years.
These acquisitions all have one thing in common. The players were coming off unproductive years. Not one of them was stepping into a situation where it was hoped they would continue what they were doing. All were acquired in the hopes that they would significantly exceed expectations. The only partial exception is Martin who was a very skilled catcher but it was hoped his hitting would go back to how it had been in previous years.
So if we give NH the benefit of the doubt and credit him with genius moves no other GM could make, how do we explain other acquisitions that didn't work out? Barajas. McGehee. Gaby Sanchez. Ronny Cedeno. Lyle Overbay. Jose Tabata. James McDonald. Clint Barmes. Ike Davis. Erik Bedard. Ernesto Frieri. John Jaso. Jon Niese. Ryan Vogelsong. Daniel Hudson.
Rather than genius, the strategy seems to be that if they bring in enough declining players, some will be productive. It's risky because while some of the players do revive their careers and become assets, others continue to be unproductive and hurt the team. I'm not willing to credit NH with doing a fine job of filling holes from outside the organization to build a championship caliber team when the method is to bring in recently unproductive players and hope they exceed expectations. Some do and too many times they don't.
TV Ratings
Theres a commonality with the guys that were successful here. They were successful before. That includes Melancon.
Even Happ was at least a legit ML starter in his career. Freese too.
There's a commonality with the guys that failed. They were basically never has beens
If he wants to start signing guys who were at least good at some point in their careers, I'm fine with that.
Even Happ was at least a legit ML starter in his career. Freese too.
There's a commonality with the guys that failed. They were basically never has beens
If he wants to start signing guys who were at least good at some point in their careers, I'm fine with that.