If yesterday's game wasn't enough to discourage you, be sure to check out WTM's article (Part 2 of 2) at Bucs Dugout --
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2016/8/14/124 ... s-part-two
Our situation may be worse than the Rays in that all teams are now focusing on stats and young talent. Even the Yankees, who at one time you could count on to take old players in exchange for prospects, seem to have (at least for now) turned a page.
Depressing View
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Depressing View
Thanks for posting this mouse. Can't say I enjoyed what I read, but it was very insightful and yes, depressing.
So much has been written since the Liriano trade about the Pirates "financial flexibility" that it has got me wondering just what the actual revenues are for the Pirates as an organization and how they compare with other teams in MLB. Anyone have any reliable source for this information or is that one of those things that is strictly in the realm of speculation?
So much has been written since the Liriano trade about the Pirates "financial flexibility" that it has got me wondering just what the actual revenues are for the Pirates as an organization and how they compare with other teams in MLB. Anyone have any reliable source for this information or is that one of those things that is strictly in the realm of speculation?
Depressing View
103D30212637206063520 wrote: The article makes a lot of sense. 
That was a very good read. I didn't realize Gayo has been failing to reel in any talent of late.
That was a very good read. I didn't realize Gayo has been failing to reel in any talent of late.
-
OrlandoMerced
Depressing View
The structure of the international market is chaotic. The system has incentivized teams to spend absurd amounts because once the penalty is reached, the incentive is to just spend more. I'm pretty sure the writing on the wall is for it to be reformed, teams are just spending more at the same talent levels. I don't have a problem with the Pirates avoiding the tire fire that market has become.
In 2011, one of the best draft pools in recent history, the Rays collected a ton of picks through shrewd dealing. Then proceeded to flub the class. Poor drafting is the main culprit in th Rays demise.
In 2011, one of the best draft pools in recent history, the Rays collected a ton of picks through shrewd dealing. Then proceeded to flub the class. Poor drafting is the main culprit in th Rays demise.
-
Steve19981
- Posts: 85
- Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:57 pm
Depressing View
4B565250455D4A5C543F0 wrote: The article makes a lot of sense.
That was a very good read. I didn't realize Gayo has been failing to reel in any talent of late.
I don't know if he's failing to reel in any talent or if he's just not signing top talent. I had a look at that list of top 40 bonuses. While a lot of those guys still are due some time to develop, it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence to go after the top bonus players. Nealy a complete crap shoot!
That was a very good read. I didn't realize Gayo has been failing to reel in any talent of late.
I don't know if he's failing to reel in any talent or if he's just not signing top talent. I had a look at that list of top 40 bonuses. While a lot of those guys still are due some time to develop, it doesn't inspire a lot of confidence to go after the top bonus players. Nealy a complete crap shoot!
-
rucker59@gmail.com
Depressing View
I've been thinking about these articles through the weekend; they are the most concerning "evidence" presented to-date that the Pirates will not do what is necessary to finish a team to give it the best reasonable chance to win a pennant and WS. Whether it's true inability or placing profits over winning is the unknown.
What makes this article so concerning is the source: I'm pretty sure I'm correct when I say that WTM has always generally been a supporter of this FO. He's never been part of the Nutting is cheap choirs. To see him write this analysis is quite sobering.
It seems no one is buying Neal's explanation of The Trade. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, calm down even. But if WTM has no doubt it's an extraordinarily extraordinarily "costly" salary dump then I'm back to being alarmed and angry - the farm system is so critical to the Pirates they simply can't be giving resources away. Should it happen again I'd be hoping MLB would step in.
If this article is fundamentally correct, the only Q is "why"? If Bob Nutting is prioritizing profits over winning then he needs to sell. On the other hand, he's running the team in the only way to ensure long term visibility then we are AAAA and are playing for something less than 28 other teams. Either way, this is not good - if the foundation of the article is correct.
This is an article worthy of a response from the FO if it's off base. If this offseason is more of the same, it won't look good.
Very troubling....
What makes this article so concerning is the source: I'm pretty sure I'm correct when I say that WTM has always generally been a supporter of this FO. He's never been part of the Nutting is cheap choirs. To see him write this analysis is quite sobering.
It seems no one is buying Neal's explanation of The Trade. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, calm down even. But if WTM has no doubt it's an extraordinarily extraordinarily "costly" salary dump then I'm back to being alarmed and angry - the farm system is so critical to the Pirates they simply can't be giving resources away. Should it happen again I'd be hoping MLB would step in.
If this article is fundamentally correct, the only Q is "why"? If Bob Nutting is prioritizing profits over winning then he needs to sell. On the other hand, he's running the team in the only way to ensure long term visibility then we are AAAA and are playing for something less than 28 other teams. Either way, this is not good - if the foundation of the article is correct.
This is an article worthy of a response from the FO if it's off base. If this offseason is more of the same, it won't look good.
Very troubling....
Depressing View
686F79717F682F235A7D777B7376347975771A0 wrote: I've been thinking about these articles through the weekend; they are the most concerning "evidence" presented to-date that the Pirates will not do what is necessary to finish a team to give it the best reasonable chance to win a pennant and WS. Whether it's true inability or placing profits over winning is the unknown.
What makes this article so concerning is the source: I'm pretty sure I'm correct when I say that WTM has always generally been a supporter of this FO. He's never been part of the Nutting is cheap choirs. To see him write this analysis is quite sobering.
It seems no one is buying Neal's explanation of The Trade. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, calm down even. But if WTM has no doubt it's an extraordinarily extraordinarily "costly" salary dump then I'm back to being alarmed and angry - the farm system is so critical to the Pirates they simply can't be giving resources away. Should it happen again I'd be hoping MLB would step in.
If this article is fundamentally correct, the only Q is "why"? If Bob Nutting is prioritizing profits over winning then he needs to sell. On the other hand, he's running the team in the only way to ensure long term visibility then we are AAAA and are playing for something less than 28 other teams. Either way, this is not good - if the foundation of the article is correct.
This is an article worthy of a response from the FO if it's off base. If this offseason is more of the same, it won't look good.
Very troubling....
I agree that this is a big off season. What are the Pirates going to do to make sure next year's pitching staff is better than this one? Looks like Glasnow cannot be penciled in to the rotation.
Next year has Cole, Taillon, Kuhl, Hutchison and Brault at the moment. Kingman and Williams in reserve. That is not likely a great rotation. To have a good pitching staff next year the Bucs are going to need to go outside and bring in somebody who is at least a couple steps up from Niese.
What makes this article so concerning is the source: I'm pretty sure I'm correct when I say that WTM has always generally been a supporter of this FO. He's never been part of the Nutting is cheap choirs. To see him write this analysis is quite sobering.
It seems no one is buying Neal's explanation of The Trade. I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, calm down even. But if WTM has no doubt it's an extraordinarily extraordinarily "costly" salary dump then I'm back to being alarmed and angry - the farm system is so critical to the Pirates they simply can't be giving resources away. Should it happen again I'd be hoping MLB would step in.
If this article is fundamentally correct, the only Q is "why"? If Bob Nutting is prioritizing profits over winning then he needs to sell. On the other hand, he's running the team in the only way to ensure long term visibility then we are AAAA and are playing for something less than 28 other teams. Either way, this is not good - if the foundation of the article is correct.
This is an article worthy of a response from the FO if it's off base. If this offseason is more of the same, it won't look good.
Very troubling....
I agree that this is a big off season. What are the Pirates going to do to make sure next year's pitching staff is better than this one? Looks like Glasnow cannot be penciled in to the rotation.
Next year has Cole, Taillon, Kuhl, Hutchison and Brault at the moment. Kingman and Williams in reserve. That is not likely a great rotation. To have a good pitching staff next year the Bucs are going to need to go outside and bring in somebody who is at least a couple steps up from Niese.
-
dogknot17@yahoo.co
Depressing View
I don't agree with the article. I like WTM, but it is still an opinion piece. I respect his posts, but doesn't mean I always agree.
The Pirates are in a different situation than the Rays as they locked up all their players. The Rays had a good run, but they just didn't get over the hump. I wouldn't say the Rays failed. They were in position to win, but didn't.
Is it possible that Liriano stinks now? It sure looks that way. I am not sure why Toronto wants him in their playoff run. I am glad the Pirates didn't. To think he would have been benched as a Pirate would be a dream too. People say the Pirates don't care and never play for the "now". That is exactly what they did in removing Liriano: Addition by subtraction.
The Pirates have brought in pitchers every year. Why would 2017 be any different? The Rotation probably needs one free agent arm. The Pirates have proved to make a trade or sign guys since 2012. I have no worry that isn't the plan this next off season too.
The 2016 season is falling in place like I predicted. It just sucks that the regular stars of the team have been bad.
The Pirates are in a different situation than the Rays as they locked up all their players. The Rays had a good run, but they just didn't get over the hump. I wouldn't say the Rays failed. They were in position to win, but didn't.
Is it possible that Liriano stinks now? It sure looks that way. I am not sure why Toronto wants him in their playoff run. I am glad the Pirates didn't. To think he would have been benched as a Pirate would be a dream too. People say the Pirates don't care and never play for the "now". That is exactly what they did in removing Liriano: Addition by subtraction.
The Pirates have brought in pitchers every year. Why would 2017 be any different? The Rotation probably needs one free agent arm. The Pirates have proved to make a trade or sign guys since 2012. I have no worry that isn't the plan this next off season too.
The 2016 season is falling in place like I predicted. It just sucks that the regular stars of the team have been bad.
-
UtahPirate
- Posts: 582
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:36 pm
Depressing View
656E666A6F6E753036417860696E6E2F626E010 wrote: I don't agree with the article. I like WTM, but it is still an opinion piece. I respect his posts, but doesn't mean I always agree.
I'm in the same spot as Dog. I loved the research and WTM is always great, but I felt too much focus was placed on the Liriano trade as an indication of what is to come. For me, my opinion will be completely formed when I see what the Bucs do this winter with the "financial flexibility" gained from dumping Liriano -- and from how Hutchison looks when we trot him out in September. Until then I'm in wait and see mode.
I will admit that I'm more concerned about the International signings as we were so good at that a couple of years ago and have been locked out lately with several teams going way over allowed budgets to dominate for one year and then sit out the next. That would seem like a strategy that would appeal to us and I've half expected us to go crazy one year and then sit out the next. Perhaps WTM's budgetary issues show up more here for me than the Liranio trade.
I've been one to post that this is a year of transition. When I was doing my OBN preseason win/lost record it was on my mind then. I think we are seeing that transition really starting to kick in right now with Taillon and Kuhl. I still think we'll see Williams get a start or two before the year ends as well. I'd pull Glasnow and let him rest right now. Bell will be back up in a couple of weeks when the rosters expand as well. Just a lot of pieces to try and fit as the Bucs construct next years roster. And then... who does NH plug in? At that point I'll be ready to decide on what he did at this deadline...
I'm in the same spot as Dog. I loved the research and WTM is always great, but I felt too much focus was placed on the Liriano trade as an indication of what is to come. For me, my opinion will be completely formed when I see what the Bucs do this winter with the "financial flexibility" gained from dumping Liriano -- and from how Hutchison looks when we trot him out in September. Until then I'm in wait and see mode.
I will admit that I'm more concerned about the International signings as we were so good at that a couple of years ago and have been locked out lately with several teams going way over allowed budgets to dominate for one year and then sit out the next. That would seem like a strategy that would appeal to us and I've half expected us to go crazy one year and then sit out the next. Perhaps WTM's budgetary issues show up more here for me than the Liranio trade.
I've been one to post that this is a year of transition. When I was doing my OBN preseason win/lost record it was on my mind then. I think we are seeing that transition really starting to kick in right now with Taillon and Kuhl. I still think we'll see Williams get a start or two before the year ends as well. I'd pull Glasnow and let him rest right now. Bell will be back up in a couple of weeks when the rosters expand as well. Just a lot of pieces to try and fit as the Bucs construct next years roster. And then... who does NH plug in? At that point I'll be ready to decide on what he did at this deadline...