The move that deserves to be made won't be made.
Prior to Cherington's arrival, the most recent year that the Pirates fell below .416 was in 2010. As much as fans are complaining about the current season, this is Cherington's best here.
Clearly, this roster is lesser than the one he inherited. That's fine- provided people are satisfied with that.
So, which is it? Can't have both. Either you're satisfied with the status quo and all that has caused it, or you're not.
Shelton didn't hire himself. These players didn't just come into the locker room and put on Pirates uniforms by themselves. The coaches were hired by Cherington.
If you think for one minute that a bunch of LMGs are going to be successful against far more experienced- and better- opponents, that's not a Shelton problem. That's a you problem.
If you think that we should "play the kids," then you have to be willing to live with the losses. Some of them are going to be bad losses. There will be an occasional, but not regular- impressive win.
This "plan" truthfully isn't a plan at all. It's an experiment. At <.400, I would say that the experiment isn't working.
Game Thread - 8/14 - Pirates @ Giants
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
Game Thread - 8/14 - Pirates @ Giants
0B2A3F360E372C3F2A3B5E0 wrote: 6-16 now since the All Star Break. I give Shelton maybe until June next year in the interest of being fair if this team is 10-20 games under .500 at that point next year you make a change period. You can deal and accept the losing this season not gonna be the case next season. You can’t keep losing games at this pace and not have any accountability and not make any changes. Somebody has to pay the price for this horrific play.
I hope your timeline is off!
I think the BC mystic has to be wearing off by now. He has had it pretty easy when it comes to the fans and press. It's time to start asking some hard questions about where this organization is right now and where it is headed under his leadership. And that includes why the heck he hired an imbecile for a manager.
Shelton checked some boxes: former hitting coach, was with Tampa. Doesn't mean he needs to stay with the Bucs.
Also, BC should be under enough pressure to not have a team of Allen's, VanMeters, Goday's next season not to mention 11 million pitchers from the waiver wire.
I hope your timeline is off!
I think the BC mystic has to be wearing off by now. He has had it pretty easy when it comes to the fans and press. It's time to start asking some hard questions about where this organization is right now and where it is headed under his leadership. And that includes why the heck he hired an imbecile for a manager.
Shelton checked some boxes: former hitting coach, was with Tampa. Doesn't mean he needs to stay with the Bucs.
Also, BC should be under enough pressure to not have a team of Allen's, VanMeters, Goday's next season not to mention 11 million pitchers from the waiver wire.
Game Thread - 8/14 - Pirates @ Giants
Agree what everyone has said up to this point, but can Crowe maybe not throw a meatball fastball right down the middle on the 1st pitch? Here is an idea, change-up on the 1st pitch, as you know Estrada is an aggressive hitter and most likely wants to try and win it. The change-up would get him out front and he could have potentially rolled it over to 3rd for a game ending DP. Or he would have pulled it foul. Bottomline Crowe would have at least been ahead. Hoping we get better coaches and a manager next year as well, these decisions are atrocious and the regression/not getting better from a player perspective is sad. Maybe we steal some coaches from the Rays (the good ones...lol)? They seem to have their s**t together over there.
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ChillinStation
- Posts: 424
- Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2020 2:40 pm
Game Thread - 8/14 - Pirates @ Giants
033621212A1321212A2D21440 wrote: The move that deserves to be made won't be made.
Prior to Cherington's arrival, the most recent year that the Pirates fell below .416 was in 2010. As much as fans are complaining about the current season, this is Cherington's best here.
Clearly, this roster is lesser than the one he inherited. That's fine- provided people are satisfied with that.
So, which is it? Can't have both. Either you're satisfied with the status quo and all that has caused it, or you're not.
Shelton didn't hire himself. These players didn't just come into the locker room and put on Pirates uniforms by themselves. The coaches were hired by Cherington.
If you think for one minute that a bunch of LMGs are going to be successful against far more experienced- and better- opponents, that's not a Shelton problem. That's a you problem.
If you think that we should "play the kids," then you have to be willing to live with the losses. Some of them are going to be bad losses. There will be an occasional, but not regular- impressive win.
This "plan" truthfully isn't a plan at all. It's an experiment. At <.400, I would say that the experiment isn't working.
I haven`t read all that above . Had a few :-/
Glad you are back ;D As long as you don`t get all Nutting, good talk happens. ::)
Prior to Cherington's arrival, the most recent year that the Pirates fell below .416 was in 2010. As much as fans are complaining about the current season, this is Cherington's best here.
Clearly, this roster is lesser than the one he inherited. That's fine- provided people are satisfied with that.
So, which is it? Can't have both. Either you're satisfied with the status quo and all that has caused it, or you're not.
Shelton didn't hire himself. These players didn't just come into the locker room and put on Pirates uniforms by themselves. The coaches were hired by Cherington.
If you think for one minute that a bunch of LMGs are going to be successful against far more experienced- and better- opponents, that's not a Shelton problem. That's a you problem.
If you think that we should "play the kids," then you have to be willing to live with the losses. Some of them are going to be bad losses. There will be an occasional, but not regular- impressive win.
This "plan" truthfully isn't a plan at all. It's an experiment. At <.400, I would say that the experiment isn't working.
I haven`t read all that above . Had a few :-/
Glad you are back ;D As long as you don`t get all Nutting, good talk happens. ::)
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Game Thread - 8/14 - Pirates @ Giants
I'm not really "back," but thanks. First post in about two months. I'm doing all that I can to wean myself away from this franchise. A lot has to do with having so much less free time than I had with my new work assignment.
I don't want to diminish others' enjoyment of the team, so I'll leave it at that.
I don't want to diminish others' enjoyment of the team, so I'll leave it at that.
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Bobster21
Game Thread - 8/14 - Pirates @ Giants
0E29383C39241B2F383939245D0 wrote: 6-16 now since the All Star Break. I give Shelton maybe until June next year in the interest of being fair if this team is 10-20 games under .500 at that point next year you make a change period. You can deal and accept the losing this season not gonna be the case next season. You can’t keep losing games at this pace and not have any accountability and not make any changes. Somebody has to pay the price for this horrific play.
It shouldn't just be a matter of the W-L record. The Pirates were going to have a losing record this year even with a manager who made great decisions. But Shelton's game management is consistently illogical, counterproductive and downright stupid. He shouldn't get a pass on that just because no one expected the team to win anyway. He shouldn't get to return next year and remain unless they fall a certain number of games under .500.
These young players are being indoctrinated into a hapless culture of losing in which the manager is complicit by either not caring or not being competent if he does care. Anything goes, obviously counterproductive decisions are being made daily and as a result, no one seems to share the players' competitive desire to win. Supposedly, this is part of a rebuilding program but the players are being dragged down by the incompetence of the decision makers instead of developing and improving under strong, competent leadership. Losing is readily accepted and even facilitated by the manager and coaches. That's why the manager and coaches need to go, even though a losing record was expected.
It shouldn't just be a matter of the W-L record. The Pirates were going to have a losing record this year even with a manager who made great decisions. But Shelton's game management is consistently illogical, counterproductive and downright stupid. He shouldn't get a pass on that just because no one expected the team to win anyway. He shouldn't get to return next year and remain unless they fall a certain number of games under .500.
These young players are being indoctrinated into a hapless culture of losing in which the manager is complicit by either not caring or not being competent if he does care. Anything goes, obviously counterproductive decisions are being made daily and as a result, no one seems to share the players' competitive desire to win. Supposedly, this is part of a rebuilding program but the players are being dragged down by the incompetence of the decision makers instead of developing and improving under strong, competent leadership. Losing is readily accepted and even facilitated by the manager and coaches. That's why the manager and coaches need to go, even though a losing record was expected.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
Game Thread - 8/14 - Pirates @ Giants
705D50414657400003320 wrote: 6-16 now since the All Star Break. I give Shelton maybe until June next year in the interest of being fair if this team is 10-20 games under .500 at that point next year you make a change period. You can deal and accept the losing this season not gonna be the case next season. You can’t keep losing games at this pace and not have any accountability and not make any changes. Somebody has to pay the price for this horrific play.
It shouldn't just be a matter of the W-L record. The Pirates were going to have a losing record this year even with a manager who made great decisions. But Shelton's game management is consistently illogical, counterproductive and downright stupid. He shouldn't get a pass on that just because no one expected the team to win anyway. He shouldn't get to return next year and remain unless they fall a certain number of games under .500.
These young players are being indoctrinated into a hapless culture of losing in which the manager is complicit by either not caring or not being competent if he does care. Anything goes, obviously counterproductive decisions are being made daily and as a result, no one seems to share the players' competitive desire to win. Supposedly, this is part of a rebuilding program but the players are being dragged down by the incompetence of the decision makers instead of developing and improving under strong, competent leadership. Losing is readily accepted and even facilitated by the manager and coaches. That's why the manager and coaches need to go, even though a losing record was expected.
Oh heck yes Bobster. We can't build a winning team in a team culture like this. That's what worries me about Cherington, as the loses keep coming I am getting very concerned we have once again bought a pig in a poke in Cherington. He seems unconcerned and that things are going as planned. Look at Baltimore 3 years down but they've turned things around while 3 years in with Cherington and still as bad or worse than when he started. If he fired Shelton at least it might show he pretends to be concerned even though he's really not.
It shouldn't just be a matter of the W-L record. The Pirates were going to have a losing record this year even with a manager who made great decisions. But Shelton's game management is consistently illogical, counterproductive and downright stupid. He shouldn't get a pass on that just because no one expected the team to win anyway. He shouldn't get to return next year and remain unless they fall a certain number of games under .500.
These young players are being indoctrinated into a hapless culture of losing in which the manager is complicit by either not caring or not being competent if he does care. Anything goes, obviously counterproductive decisions are being made daily and as a result, no one seems to share the players' competitive desire to win. Supposedly, this is part of a rebuilding program but the players are being dragged down by the incompetence of the decision makers instead of developing and improving under strong, competent leadership. Losing is readily accepted and even facilitated by the manager and coaches. That's why the manager and coaches need to go, even though a losing record was expected.
Oh heck yes Bobster. We can't build a winning team in a team culture like this. That's what worries me about Cherington, as the loses keep coming I am getting very concerned we have once again bought a pig in a poke in Cherington. He seems unconcerned and that things are going as planned. Look at Baltimore 3 years down but they've turned things around while 3 years in with Cherington and still as bad or worse than when he started. If he fired Shelton at least it might show he pretends to be concerned even though he's really not.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Game Thread - 8/14 - Pirates @ Giants
I believe that very little is done without the advanced approval- or, input of the general manager.
And, in cases where correction is warranted, it is up to the general manager to have those discussions with his subordinate manager. Since Shelton hasn't been dismissed, I assume that Cherington is OK with the moves, overall, that Shelton has made.
The culture is set from "on high." Not much can be done about that. But, the trickle down begins at the general manager level.
There is enough for me to go on that if one goes, then both should- if you truly seek the necessary improvements.
I'm not saying that change should be made in the immediate future. I'm saying that if that time should come, two should go through the door. This situation has been a joint effort.
And, in cases where correction is warranted, it is up to the general manager to have those discussions with his subordinate manager. Since Shelton hasn't been dismissed, I assume that Cherington is OK with the moves, overall, that Shelton has made.
The culture is set from "on high." Not much can be done about that. But, the trickle down begins at the general manager level.
There is enough for me to go on that if one goes, then both should- if you truly seek the necessary improvements.
I'm not saying that change should be made in the immediate future. I'm saying that if that time should come, two should go through the door. This situation has been a joint effort.
Game Thread - 8/14 - Pirates @ Giants
Can we expect to see a BC quote like this after next season?
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/08/ ... eason.html
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/08/ ... eason.html
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WildwoodDave2
Game Thread - 8/14 - Pirates @ Giants
6243565F675E45564352370 wrote: 6-16 now since the All Star Break. I give Shelton maybe until June next year in the interest of being fair if this team is 10-20 games under .500 at that point next year you make a change period. You can deal and accept the losing this season not gonna be the case next season. You can’t keep losing games at this pace and not have any accountability and not make any changes. Somebody has to pay the price for this horrific play.
I hope your timeline is off!
I think the BC mystic has to be wearing off by now. He has had it pretty easy when it comes to the fans and press. It's time to start asking some hard questions about where this organization is right now and where it is headed under his leadership. And that includes why the heck he hired an imbecile for a manager.
They hired an imbecile for a manager because they got him on the cheap
I hope your timeline is off!
I think the BC mystic has to be wearing off by now. He has had it pretty easy when it comes to the fans and press. It's time to start asking some hard questions about where this organization is right now and where it is headed under his leadership. And that includes why the heck he hired an imbecile for a manager.
They hired an imbecile for a manager because they got him on the cheap