Official Game Thread - 4/8 - Bucs vs ChiSox
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Official Game Thread - 4/8 - Bucs vs ChiSox
Have we gotten Tim Anderson out yet this weekend? Thankfully he plays in the American League.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Official Game Thread - 4/8 - Bucs vs ChiSox
Valesquez struggles badly, to be kind. Two and two thirds innings, 75 pitches, five runs, his ERA now near 10.
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WildwoodDave2
Official Game Thread - 4/8 - Bucs vs ChiSox
I remember when we signed Velasquez I posted that
I had seen him pitch for three years with the Phillies and
was not impressed. Always had difficulty with control.
Seems that hasn't changed
I had seen him pitch for three years with the Phillies and
was not impressed. Always had difficulty with control.
Seems that hasn't changed
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Bobster21
Official Game Thread - 4/8 - Bucs vs ChiSox
1B2520283B232328082D3A297E4C0 wrote: I remember when we signed Velasquez I posted that I had seen him pitch for three years with the Phillies and was not impressed. Always had difficulty with control. Seems that hasn't changed
Velasquez averaged 4.2 innings per start for each of the 3 years 2017-2019. That dropped to 4.1 innings for each of the 3 years 2020-2022. He has done very poorly as a starter since 2017 and was removed from the White Sox rotation last year and sent to the BP. He was obviously not signed to add a quality arm to the Pirates rotation, but rather because they needed a warm body. For a 9-year veteran, the 3.15 mil he signed for is not what quality starters get paid.
Established quality starters won't sign with the Pirates because they won't get paid what good starters can get from a lot of teams. And even if the money offer was comparable (which it would never be under Nutting), quality starters don't want to choose to go to an organization known for cheapness and losing when they are in demand by better organizations. When the Pirates go outside the organization to look for SPs, they usually focus on reclamation projects who are not in demand but were good SPs some years ago and are looking for a team willing to give them a chance to revive their careers. They've had some success in that area but for whatever reason, did not or could not sign such a veteran this year. There is nothing in Valesquez's resume to suggest he can give them quality innings. And if Brubaker had not been lost, these starts might have been nothing more than a tryout for Velazquez to see if he could hold the 5th spot in the rotation until someone like Oviedo, Ortiz, Priester or Burrows could step in. If there was a better option for the rotation, Velazquez could go to the BP from where he primarily pitched last year after a career-long history of being a poor starter.
But at least for the time being, there doesn't seem to be a viable option so I think we will see Velazquez as little more than an "opener," trying to give them 3 or 4 innings before the BP takes over by which time the game will hopefully not already be out of hand.
Velasquez averaged 4.2 innings per start for each of the 3 years 2017-2019. That dropped to 4.1 innings for each of the 3 years 2020-2022. He has done very poorly as a starter since 2017 and was removed from the White Sox rotation last year and sent to the BP. He was obviously not signed to add a quality arm to the Pirates rotation, but rather because they needed a warm body. For a 9-year veteran, the 3.15 mil he signed for is not what quality starters get paid.
Established quality starters won't sign with the Pirates because they won't get paid what good starters can get from a lot of teams. And even if the money offer was comparable (which it would never be under Nutting), quality starters don't want to choose to go to an organization known for cheapness and losing when they are in demand by better organizations. When the Pirates go outside the organization to look for SPs, they usually focus on reclamation projects who are not in demand but were good SPs some years ago and are looking for a team willing to give them a chance to revive their careers. They've had some success in that area but for whatever reason, did not or could not sign such a veteran this year. There is nothing in Valesquez's resume to suggest he can give them quality innings. And if Brubaker had not been lost, these starts might have been nothing more than a tryout for Velazquez to see if he could hold the 5th spot in the rotation until someone like Oviedo, Ortiz, Priester or Burrows could step in. If there was a better option for the rotation, Velazquez could go to the BP from where he primarily pitched last year after a career-long history of being a poor starter.
But at least for the time being, there doesn't seem to be a viable option so I think we will see Velazquez as little more than an "opener," trying to give them 3 or 4 innings before the BP takes over by which time the game will hopefully not already be out of hand.
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WildwoodDave2
Official Game Thread - 4/8 - Bucs vs ChiSox
694449585F4E59191A2B0 wrote: I remember when we signed Velasquez I posted that I had seen him pitch for three years with the Phillies and was not impressed. Always had difficulty with control. Seems that hasn't changed
Velasquez averaged 4.2 innings per start for each of the 3 years 2017-2019. That dropped to 4.1 innings for each of the 3 years 2020-2022. He has done very poorly as a starter since 2017 and was removed from the White Sox rotation last year and sent to the BP. He was obviously not signed to add a quality arm to the Pirates rotation, but rather because they needed a warm body. For a 9-year veteran, the 3.15 mil he signed for is not what quality starters get paid.
Established quality starters won't sign with the Pirates because they won't get paid what good starters can get from a lot of teams. And even if the money offer was comparable (which it would never be under Nutting), quality starters don't want to choose to go to an organization known for cheapness and losing when they are in demand by better organizations. When the Pirates go outside the organization to look for SPs, they usually focus on reclamation projects who are not in demand but were good SPs some years ago and are looking for a team willing to give them a chance to revive their careers. They've had some success in that area but for whatever reason, did not or could not sign such a veteran this year. There is nothing in Valesquez's resume to suggest he can give them quality innings. And if Brubaker had not been lost, these starts might have been nothing more than a tryout for Velazquez to see if he could hold the 5th spot in the rotation until someone like Oviedo, Ortiz, Priester or Burrows could step in. If there was a better option for the rotation, Velazquez could go to the BP from where he primarily pitched last year after a career-long history of being a poor starter.
But at least for the time being, there doesn't seem to be a viable option so I think we will see Velazquez as little more than an "opener," trying to give them 3 or 4 innings before the BP takes over by which time the game will hopefully not already be out of hand.
So in other words, the bucs will have to score 8-10 runs when he pitches
Velasquez averaged 4.2 innings per start for each of the 3 years 2017-2019. That dropped to 4.1 innings for each of the 3 years 2020-2022. He has done very poorly as a starter since 2017 and was removed from the White Sox rotation last year and sent to the BP. He was obviously not signed to add a quality arm to the Pirates rotation, but rather because they needed a warm body. For a 9-year veteran, the 3.15 mil he signed for is not what quality starters get paid.
Established quality starters won't sign with the Pirates because they won't get paid what good starters can get from a lot of teams. And even if the money offer was comparable (which it would never be under Nutting), quality starters don't want to choose to go to an organization known for cheapness and losing when they are in demand by better organizations. When the Pirates go outside the organization to look for SPs, they usually focus on reclamation projects who are not in demand but were good SPs some years ago and are looking for a team willing to give them a chance to revive their careers. They've had some success in that area but for whatever reason, did not or could not sign such a veteran this year. There is nothing in Valesquez's resume to suggest he can give them quality innings. And if Brubaker had not been lost, these starts might have been nothing more than a tryout for Velazquez to see if he could hold the 5th spot in the rotation until someone like Oviedo, Ortiz, Priester or Burrows could step in. If there was a better option for the rotation, Velazquez could go to the BP from where he primarily pitched last year after a career-long history of being a poor starter.
But at least for the time being, there doesn't seem to be a viable option so I think we will see Velazquez as little more than an "opener," trying to give them 3 or 4 innings before the BP takes over by which time the game will hopefully not already be out of hand.
So in other words, the bucs will have to score 8-10 runs when he pitches
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2drfischer@gmail.c
Official Game Thread - 4/8 - Bucs vs ChiSox
557875646372652526170 wrote: I remember when we signed Velasquez I posted that I had seen him pitch for three years with the Phillies and was not impressed. Always had difficulty with control. Seems that hasn't changed
Velasquez averaged 4.2 innings per start for each of the 3 years 2017-2019. That dropped to 4.1 innings for each of the 3 years 2020-2022. He has done very poorly as a starter since 2017 and was removed from the White Sox rotation last year and sent to the BP. He was obviously not signed to add a quality arm to the Pirates rotation, but rather because they needed a warm body. For a 9-year veteran, the 3.15 mil he signed for is not what quality starters get paid.
Established quality starters won't sign with the Pirates because they won't get paid what good starters can get from a lot of teams. And even if the money offer was comparable (which it would never be under Nutting), quality starters don't want to choose to go to an organization known for cheapness and losing when they are in demand by better organizations. When the Pirates go outside the organization to look for SPs, they usually focus on reclamation projects who are not in demand but were good SPs some years ago and are looking for a team willing to give them a chance to revive their careers. They've had some success in that area but for whatever reason, did not or could not sign such a veteran this year. There is nothing in Valesquez's resume to suggest he can give them quality innings. And if Brubaker had not been lost, these starts might have been nothing more than a tryout for Velazquez to see if he could hold the 5th spot in the rotation until someone like Oviedo, Ortiz, Priester or Burrows could step in. If there was a better option for the rotation, Velazquez could go to the BP from where he primarily pitched last year after a career-long history of being a poor starter.
But at least for the time being, there doesn't seem to be a viable option so I think we will see Velazquez as little more than an "opener," trying to give them 3 or 4 innings before the BP takes over by which time the game will hopefully not already be out of hand.
You’re right on all counts, but I wouldn’t give Velasquez, or Hill for that matter, beyond mid-May to show he belongs. (I know Nutting would think it blasphemous but his salary should never stand in the way of moving on from him.) I’d much rather give Oviedo and/or Ortiz, assuming they’re ready, the opportunity for the remainder of the year. Again, this is a year to allow the young players to both learn and to establish themselves so they’re that much more prepared for 2024, when the team should be ready to legitimately compete.
Velasquez averaged 4.2 innings per start for each of the 3 years 2017-2019. That dropped to 4.1 innings for each of the 3 years 2020-2022. He has done very poorly as a starter since 2017 and was removed from the White Sox rotation last year and sent to the BP. He was obviously not signed to add a quality arm to the Pirates rotation, but rather because they needed a warm body. For a 9-year veteran, the 3.15 mil he signed for is not what quality starters get paid.
Established quality starters won't sign with the Pirates because they won't get paid what good starters can get from a lot of teams. And even if the money offer was comparable (which it would never be under Nutting), quality starters don't want to choose to go to an organization known for cheapness and losing when they are in demand by better organizations. When the Pirates go outside the organization to look for SPs, they usually focus on reclamation projects who are not in demand but were good SPs some years ago and are looking for a team willing to give them a chance to revive their careers. They've had some success in that area but for whatever reason, did not or could not sign such a veteran this year. There is nothing in Valesquez's resume to suggest he can give them quality innings. And if Brubaker had not been lost, these starts might have been nothing more than a tryout for Velazquez to see if he could hold the 5th spot in the rotation until someone like Oviedo, Ortiz, Priester or Burrows could step in. If there was a better option for the rotation, Velazquez could go to the BP from where he primarily pitched last year after a career-long history of being a poor starter.
But at least for the time being, there doesn't seem to be a viable option so I think we will see Velazquez as little more than an "opener," trying to give them 3 or 4 innings before the BP takes over by which time the game will hopefully not already be out of hand.
You’re right on all counts, but I wouldn’t give Velasquez, or Hill for that matter, beyond mid-May to show he belongs. (I know Nutting would think it blasphemous but his salary should never stand in the way of moving on from him.) I’d much rather give Oviedo and/or Ortiz, assuming they’re ready, the opportunity for the remainder of the year. Again, this is a year to allow the young players to both learn and to establish themselves so they’re that much more prepared for 2024, when the team should be ready to legitimately compete.
Official Game Thread - 4/8 - Bucs vs ChiSox
I'm not ready to give up on Velasquez right yet. Hill is the one I worry most about.
The White Sox have been pounding the ball, their pitching has been awful. It's been an entertaining series so far. Hoping the Bucs can take the rubber match today, losing the series kind of takes some air out of the bubble after the opener.
It's clear and evident we need one of two things to happen, and happen soon. Either Suwinski starts hitting, or Swaggerty is brought up, and hopefully HE hits. Bae isn't impressing me in CF. Suwinski and Swaggerty are clearly better defenders.
Just for the record, Cutch is making things just that much better. He's off to a good start. I'd like to say goodbye to Choi, and keep Cutch almost exclusively as a DH.
The White Sox have been pounding the ball, their pitching has been awful. It's been an entertaining series so far. Hoping the Bucs can take the rubber match today, losing the series kind of takes some air out of the bubble after the opener.
It's clear and evident we need one of two things to happen, and happen soon. Either Suwinski starts hitting, or Swaggerty is brought up, and hopefully HE hits. Bae isn't impressing me in CF. Suwinski and Swaggerty are clearly better defenders.
Just for the record, Cutch is making things just that much better. He's off to a good start. I'd like to say goodbye to Choi, and keep Cutch almost exclusively as a DH.
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WildwoodDave2
Official Game Thread - 4/8 - Bucs vs ChiSox
I feel Bae has to be in the lineup somewhere. He is only going
to get better and his speed makes him an asset
to get better and his speed makes him an asset
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Bobster21
Official Game Thread - 4/8 - Bucs vs ChiSox
331512070E0215030B600 wrote: I'm not ready to give up on Velasquez right yet. Hill is the one I worry most about.
The White Sox have been pounding the ball, their pitching has been awful. It's been an entertaining series so far. Hoping the Bucs can take the rubber match today, losing the series kind of takes some air out of the bubble after the opener.
It's clear and evident we need one of two things to happen, and happen soon. Either Suwinski starts hitting, or Swaggerty is brought up, and hopefully HE hits. Bae isn't impressing me in CF. Suwinski and Swaggerty are clearly better defenders.
Just for the record, Cutch is making things just that much better. He's off to a good start. I'd like to say goodbye to Choi, and keep Cutch almost exclusively as a DH.
I think the difference between Hill and Velasquez is that Hill has a history of strong pitching and Velazquez has a history of poor pitching. You know what you're getting with Velasquez. He's a weak 5th starter candidate who could return to the BP (where the White Sox finally put him last year) if a better starting option emerges (which is likely to happen at some point this season).
But Hill was signed to be a key member of the rotation. He's 43 and a 19-year veteran but has been a strong starter-when healthy-for a long time. But the red flag is that it's only a matter of time before any aging pitcher begins to decline and Hill's ERA over the previous 4 years has steadily increased from 2.45 to 3.03 to 3.86 to 4.27 last year. Last year, his hits/IP was one of his highest and his K/IP was one of his lowest. Even so, a lot of MLB pitchers would have been glad to have a year similar to Hill's 2022.
The White Sox have been pounding the ball, their pitching has been awful. It's been an entertaining series so far. Hoping the Bucs can take the rubber match today, losing the series kind of takes some air out of the bubble after the opener.
It's clear and evident we need one of two things to happen, and happen soon. Either Suwinski starts hitting, or Swaggerty is brought up, and hopefully HE hits. Bae isn't impressing me in CF. Suwinski and Swaggerty are clearly better defenders.
Just for the record, Cutch is making things just that much better. He's off to a good start. I'd like to say goodbye to Choi, and keep Cutch almost exclusively as a DH.
I think the difference between Hill and Velasquez is that Hill has a history of strong pitching and Velazquez has a history of poor pitching. You know what you're getting with Velasquez. He's a weak 5th starter candidate who could return to the BP (where the White Sox finally put him last year) if a better starting option emerges (which is likely to happen at some point this season).
But Hill was signed to be a key member of the rotation. He's 43 and a 19-year veteran but has been a strong starter-when healthy-for a long time. But the red flag is that it's only a matter of time before any aging pitcher begins to decline and Hill's ERA over the previous 4 years has steadily increased from 2.45 to 3.03 to 3.86 to 4.27 last year. Last year, his hits/IP was one of his highest and his K/IP was one of his lowest. Even so, a lot of MLB pitchers would have been glad to have a year similar to Hill's 2022.