Can you imagine a staff like this ?
1) Cole
2) Tallion
3) Glasnow
4) Musgrove
5) Baz
Pirates Dream Staff
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
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Cut slack on Cole.
He wouldn't even stay in Houston. No team would have been able to convince him to stay. He was going to be a Yankee. The Pirates get a pass on Cole.
But, yes, I have imagined that over and over.
Same for Starling Marte and other position players.
He wouldn't even stay in Houston. No team would have been able to convince him to stay. He was going to be a Yankee. The Pirates get a pass on Cole.
But, yes, I have imagined that over and over.
Same for Starling Marte and other position players.
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bucs607179
- Posts: 1579
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Pirates Dream Staff
3136273427767B420 wrote: Can you imagine a staff like this ?
1) Cole
2) Tallion
3) Glasnow
4) Musgrove
5) Baz
If we have paid for that we'd have nobody that could hit a MLB fastball, curve, etc. etc. (I guess some would say we have that now)
1) Cole
2) Tallion
3) Glasnow
4) Musgrove
5) Baz
If we have paid for that we'd have nobody that could hit a MLB fastball, curve, etc. etc. (I guess some would say we have that now)
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Bobster21
Pirates Dream Staff
2F28392A3968655C0 wrote: Can you imagine a staff like this ?
1) Cole
2) Tallion
3) Glasnow
4) Musgrove
5) Baz
I wish we had a coaching/instructional staff that could develop those guys into the pitchers they became when they joined other organizations. Other than Baz, who was senselessly given away before he got to MLB, there is a world of difference between how all of them pitched as Pirates and how they were quickly changed into dominating pitchers by the different pitching philosophies of other organizations. It's hard to believe the teams that traded for them did so blindly and merely hoped somehow they might become better than they had been with the Pirates. More likely, those teams had scouted the pitchers and had an idea of how to significantly improve them. Ideas that must have been totally foreign to the Pirates.
Cole was a product of the minor league system and was a Pirate 5 years without ever reaching his massive potential. Taillon was a product of the minor league system and was a Pirate 4 injury/health issue years. His one healthy season of 2018 was good but not great. Glasnow was a product of the minor league system and was a total failure as a Pirate for parts of 3 seasons. Musgrove was acquired in a trade and had 3 mediocre seasons as a Pirate.
So the issue is not that the Pirates didn't keep those pitchers. It's that the Pirates didn't know how to develop them into dominating MLB pitchers. IMO if those 5 pitchers were in the Pirate rotation right now we'd be wondering how 5 pitchers with so much potential could produce so little results.
1) Cole
2) Tallion
3) Glasnow
4) Musgrove
5) Baz
I wish we had a coaching/instructional staff that could develop those guys into the pitchers they became when they joined other organizations. Other than Baz, who was senselessly given away before he got to MLB, there is a world of difference between how all of them pitched as Pirates and how they were quickly changed into dominating pitchers by the different pitching philosophies of other organizations. It's hard to believe the teams that traded for them did so blindly and merely hoped somehow they might become better than they had been with the Pirates. More likely, those teams had scouted the pitchers and had an idea of how to significantly improve them. Ideas that must have been totally foreign to the Pirates.
Cole was a product of the minor league system and was a Pirate 5 years without ever reaching his massive potential. Taillon was a product of the minor league system and was a Pirate 4 injury/health issue years. His one healthy season of 2018 was good but not great. Glasnow was a product of the minor league system and was a total failure as a Pirate for parts of 3 seasons. Musgrove was acquired in a trade and had 3 mediocre seasons as a Pirate.
So the issue is not that the Pirates didn't keep those pitchers. It's that the Pirates didn't know how to develop them into dominating MLB pitchers. IMO if those 5 pitchers were in the Pirate rotation right now we'd be wondering how 5 pitchers with so much potential could produce so little results.
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GreenWeenie
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So, true....and, very fair.
I'll take our pitching, though I always want better. That's not the big problem here.
I'll take our pitching, though I always want better. That's not the big problem here.
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ArnoldRothstein
Pirates Dream Staff
Since Cole was traded for Musgrove, you couldn't put that rotation together even in theory. Chad Kuhl, though, is doing pretty nicely - 4-3, 3.70 in Denver.
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Bobster21
Pirates Dream Staff
05362A2B2820162B302C3730212D2A440 wrote: Since Cole was traded for Musgrove, you couldn't put that rotation together even in theory. Chad Kuhl, though, is doing pretty nicely - 4-3, 3.70 in Denver.
Kuhl is another one who never put it together for the Pirates. He was outstanding in AA and AAA and always mediocre to below average as a Pirate. Last year, despite hurting for SPs, they gave up on him as a starter and put him in the BP. Then nontendered him. Rockies signed him and he immediately improved. Even pitching well at Coors Field (3.22 ERA there). The fact that various organizations have immediate success with pitchers who consistently struggled as Pirates suggests it's not as much the genius of all those different organizations but rather something the Pirates are doing wrong that stifles their development.
Kuhl is another one who never put it together for the Pirates. He was outstanding in AA and AAA and always mediocre to below average as a Pirate. Last year, despite hurting for SPs, they gave up on him as a starter and put him in the BP. Then nontendered him. Rockies signed him and he immediately improved. Even pitching well at Coors Field (3.22 ERA there). The fact that various organizations have immediate success with pitchers who consistently struggled as Pirates suggests it's not as much the genius of all those different organizations but rather something the Pirates are doing wrong that stifles their development.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Pirates Dream Staff
It's at least a two-pronged fork.
Nobody can convince me that the Rockies' and Padres' development system is so much better than the Pirates'.
The Yankees and Rays'- yes. They've done well over the years.
Not sure where Houston's falls. Developed? Acquired?
Beyond that? The second prong- Keeping them.
Nobody can convince me that the Rockies' and Padres' development system is so much better than the Pirates'.
The Yankees and Rays'- yes. They've done well over the years.
Not sure where Houston's falls. Developed? Acquired?
Beyond that? The second prong- Keeping them.
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steve49
Pirates Dream Staff
784B5756555D6B564D514A4D5C5057390 wrote: Since Cole was traded for Musgrove, you couldn't put that rotation together even in theory. Chad Kuhl, though, is doing pretty nicely - 4-3, 3.70 in Denver.
Good point young man. I missed that....
Good point young man. I missed that....
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steve49
Pirates Dream Staff
1F323F2E29382F6F6C5D0 wrote: Can you imagine a staff like this ?
1) Cole
2) Tallion
3) Glasnow
4) Musgrove
5) Baz
I wish we had a coaching/instructional staff that could develop those guys into the pitchers they became when they joined other organizations. Other than Baz, who was senselessly given away before he got to MLB, there is a world of difference between how all of them pitched as Pirates and how they were quickly changed into dominating pitchers by the different pitching philosophies of other organizations. It's hard to believe the teams that traded for them did so blindly and merely hoped somehow they might become better than they had been with the Pirates. More likely, those teams had scouted the pitchers and had an idea of how to significantly improve them. Ideas that must have been totally foreign to the Pirates.
Cole was a product of the minor league system and was a Pirate 5 years without ever reaching his massive potential. Taillon was a product of the minor league system and was a Pirate 4 injury/health issue years. His one healthy season of 2018 was good but not great. Glasnow was a product of the minor league system and was a total failure as a Pirate for parts of 3 seasons. Musgrove was acquired in a trade and had 3 mediocre seasons as a Pirate.
So the issue is not that the Pirates didn't keep those pitchers. It's that the Pirates didn't know how to develop them into dominating MLB pitchers. IMO if those 5 pitchers were in the Pirate rotation right now we'd be wondering how 5 pitchers with so much potential could produce so little results.
I think much of what you talk about , which is 100% true , related to the theory of "pounding" the strike zone with low fast balls.
1) Cole
2) Tallion
3) Glasnow
4) Musgrove
5) Baz
I wish we had a coaching/instructional staff that could develop those guys into the pitchers they became when they joined other organizations. Other than Baz, who was senselessly given away before he got to MLB, there is a world of difference between how all of them pitched as Pirates and how they were quickly changed into dominating pitchers by the different pitching philosophies of other organizations. It's hard to believe the teams that traded for them did so blindly and merely hoped somehow they might become better than they had been with the Pirates. More likely, those teams had scouted the pitchers and had an idea of how to significantly improve them. Ideas that must have been totally foreign to the Pirates.
Cole was a product of the minor league system and was a Pirate 5 years without ever reaching his massive potential. Taillon was a product of the minor league system and was a Pirate 4 injury/health issue years. His one healthy season of 2018 was good but not great. Glasnow was a product of the minor league system and was a total failure as a Pirate for parts of 3 seasons. Musgrove was acquired in a trade and had 3 mediocre seasons as a Pirate.
So the issue is not that the Pirates didn't keep those pitchers. It's that the Pirates didn't know how to develop them into dominating MLB pitchers. IMO if those 5 pitchers were in the Pirate rotation right now we'd be wondering how 5 pitchers with so much potential could produce so little results.
I think much of what you talk about , which is 100% true , related to the theory of "pounding" the strike zone with low fast balls.