5065727279407272797E72170 wrote: Did 2013-2015 really happen?
Not with these guys,. Not with this payroll.
Even then, it was only so good. Our version of the world series.
That tells you how far we have to go, talent-wise, which is also payroll-wise, whether people choose to admit it or not.
True. And we aren't even talking about average MLB payroll. But in 2013, 2014 and 2015 the Pirates payroll was 52.8%, 64.2% and 77.1% of the MLB average. Of course it helped that the Yankees paid most of Burnett's contract in 2012 and 2013 (Bucs paid 6.5 mil each of those 2 years instead of the full 16.5 mil) and he came back for 2015 at 8.5 mil after getting 15 the year before from Philly. The 98 win team of 2015 was a solid team with good starters, good bench, good BP and 3 good starting pitchers (plus Locke and Morton). And it only cost roughly 3/4ths of the average MLB payroll. But it seemed as if immediately afterward Nutting must have said, "It's gonna cost me how much to stay competitive?" And he pulled the plug. The 2016 payroll increased by less than $100,000 as they fell to 74% of the MLB average by making minimal moves and watching a 98 win team fall to 78 wins. Then for 2017, 2018 and 2019 the payroll fell to 73%, 67% and 52% of the average MLB payroll until the talent level of the roster was barely equal to AAA. (Maybe AA.) So even 3/4ths of the average payroll was too much for Nutting and the roster was immediately slashed to provide the fans with a garbage team at minimal cost.
I have a hard time reading that without paragraphs, but good points.
Here are two factors I use that might help:
Two recent champions- tge Royals and cheating Astros. Both used the "Draft & Develop" process that we, and other smaller revenue fans are being sold on.
Look at what their payrolls were and where they ranked- both in the top half.
Why? Because of my second factor: payroll is largely determined by the players' time in the majors.
The Pirates tend to have lesser-experienxed players. Less than even the "young" Astros and Royals had.
I have stats at home that show that our rosters are 18 months younger than the past 15 or more champions.
Yinzers keep telling me that they love having "young guys."
I like to win.
If you don't rank in the top 15 payrolls, you may as well forget about holding any commissioners trophy.
We aren't going to be champions doing what we're doing.
We may have good seasons. We won't have great ones.
I can see interest in this season is really picking up!
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
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SteadyFreddy
I can see interest in this season is really picking up!
7B565B4A4D5C4B0B08390 wrote: I have a huge problem with Shelton taking out Brault when he had a lead and had not given up a hit yet all because of some pre-game strategy already planned before the game of having Chad Kuhl come in and pitch. When you are 2-7 and are trying like hell to win a game with an anemic offense it’s okay to shift a strategy mid-game and say to yourself You know Brault is pitching very good I’m gonna just leave him in and see how things go. This really bothered me yesterday along with many other things Shelton has done these first 9 games. I know he doesn’t have a ton to work with but the bottom line he has not done a good job so far and I’m not very impressed with what I have seen thus far.
And it's not as if Brault can't go longer. He was in the rotation last year making 19 starts. He only threw 35 pitches. This looked like a case of Shelton saying, "Hey look at me! I'm being innovative." The announcers even said Shelton had vowed to only let him pitch 3 innings no matter what. But why? Is the point of the game to watch the manager make moves or is it to utilize the players to the best extent to try to win a game? I'm sure the Cubs were very glad to see Shelton be innovative and remove the guy they couldn't touch after 3 innings. And less than 2 innings later they had 2 doubles, a walk and the game tying run. And Shelton was en route to a 9 pitcher game. But hey. Who wants to see the team try to win when you could be watching a manager manage? Yay Shelton! Way to make moves! Don't let success get in the way of your innovative game plan. And I can't wait to hear tonight how the BP is worn out after 8 relievers appeared yesterday beginning for no apparent reason in the 4th inning.
I know it’s only been a small sample size not even 10 games but I’m with you Bobster it seems so far that Shelton seems more concerned with actually having the power of finally being a manager and making all kinds of different moves to show how smart he can be as opposed to managing to win a game. You’re seeing this on a daily basis too with different lineup changes, guys playing different positions, and with Bell and Reynolds both getting the day off just to use a few examples. It’s very bizarre and I don’t know what Shelton is trying to do or prove by doing these kinds of things every game but so far it’s not doing him any favors at all early in his tenure with a fanbase who will not have any patience with a manager doing things like this and not winning any games in the process.
I sure hope Shelton gets better at his new job. It's not his fault he has such a poor team. But it's his fault when he doesn't use what he has to its maximum capability. All you can ask of a manager is to do the best he can with what he's got. Shelton is not even doing that. The last time I saw a manager get off to such a nonsensical start was McClendon. And he never got better. I hope we won't be saying Shelton never got better.
I was watching the inside Pirates baseball a few weeks ago where it was centered around Shelton and his entire career in baseball from when he was in college and in the Minors to his time in the Majors. They talked to his father and his wife a lot during the program and it seemed like Shelton has been obsessed with becoming a Major League manager these last few years or so. I’m just wondering now that he is and this is total speculation and observation of course on my part that is he more concerned now with finally having the power of being a Major League manager where he can finally make all kinds of moves to show us how smart or creative he can be. It’s like a little kid having a new toy and playing with it and doing what they want with it at all times. So I don’t wanna rush to judgement with Shelton too soon but he just seems more concerned right now of finally being able to be a MLB manager and make all these different moves as opposed to winning games. I don’t know Shelton this well to make this judgement but it just seems that the moves and just bizarre things he continues to do indicates that this is the case. He might receive a pass now for doing this but if continues the fanbase will let Shelton hear about his incompetence loud and clear.
And it's not as if Brault can't go longer. He was in the rotation last year making 19 starts. He only threw 35 pitches. This looked like a case of Shelton saying, "Hey look at me! I'm being innovative." The announcers even said Shelton had vowed to only let him pitch 3 innings no matter what. But why? Is the point of the game to watch the manager make moves or is it to utilize the players to the best extent to try to win a game? I'm sure the Cubs were very glad to see Shelton be innovative and remove the guy they couldn't touch after 3 innings. And less than 2 innings later they had 2 doubles, a walk and the game tying run. And Shelton was en route to a 9 pitcher game. But hey. Who wants to see the team try to win when you could be watching a manager manage? Yay Shelton! Way to make moves! Don't let success get in the way of your innovative game plan. And I can't wait to hear tonight how the BP is worn out after 8 relievers appeared yesterday beginning for no apparent reason in the 4th inning.
I know it’s only been a small sample size not even 10 games but I’m with you Bobster it seems so far that Shelton seems more concerned with actually having the power of finally being a manager and making all kinds of different moves to show how smart he can be as opposed to managing to win a game. You’re seeing this on a daily basis too with different lineup changes, guys playing different positions, and with Bell and Reynolds both getting the day off just to use a few examples. It’s very bizarre and I don’t know what Shelton is trying to do or prove by doing these kinds of things every game but so far it’s not doing him any favors at all early in his tenure with a fanbase who will not have any patience with a manager doing things like this and not winning any games in the process.
I sure hope Shelton gets better at his new job. It's not his fault he has such a poor team. But it's his fault when he doesn't use what he has to its maximum capability. All you can ask of a manager is to do the best he can with what he's got. Shelton is not even doing that. The last time I saw a manager get off to such a nonsensical start was McClendon. And he never got better. I hope we won't be saying Shelton never got better.
I was watching the inside Pirates baseball a few weeks ago where it was centered around Shelton and his entire career in baseball from when he was in college and in the Minors to his time in the Majors. They talked to his father and his wife a lot during the program and it seemed like Shelton has been obsessed with becoming a Major League manager these last few years or so. I’m just wondering now that he is and this is total speculation and observation of course on my part that is he more concerned now with finally having the power of being a Major League manager where he can finally make all kinds of moves to show us how smart or creative he can be. It’s like a little kid having a new toy and playing with it and doing what they want with it at all times. So I don’t wanna rush to judgement with Shelton too soon but he just seems more concerned right now of finally being able to be a MLB manager and make all these different moves as opposed to winning games. I don’t know Shelton this well to make this judgement but it just seems that the moves and just bizarre things he continues to do indicates that this is the case. He might receive a pass now for doing this but if continues the fanbase will let Shelton hear about his incompetence loud and clear.
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SteadyFreddy
I can see interest in this season is really picking up!
736865646D616E000 wrote: When they interview Shelton, I am reminded of Baghdad Bob. He goes on and on about how good this guy played and how good that guy pitched while we are 2-7 with the worst record in all of baseball. Yea his postgame press conferences are bizarre at times. He seems more concerned with talking about how good this guy did or that guy did rather then concerned about the overall result of the game. Like I’ve been saying I don’t wanna judge this guy too soon he doesn’t have enough of a body of work but so far I’m not seeing much I like about what Shelton brings to the table. He needs to be a lot better to show me he is the right person I want managing this team moving forward because so far I’m just not seeing it at all.
I can see interest in this season is really picking up!
6B4C5D595C417E4A5D5C5C41380 wrote: When they interview Shelton, I am reminded of Baghdad Bob. He goes on and on about how good this guy played and how good that guy pitched while we are 2-7 with the worst record in all of baseball. Yea his postgame press conferences are bizarre at times. He seems more concerned with talking about how good this guy did or that guy did rather then concerned about the overall result of the game. Like I’ve been saying I don’t wanna judge this guy too soon he doesn’t have enough of a body of work but so far I’m not seeing much I like about what Shelton brings to the table. He needs to be a lot better to show me he is the right person I want managing this team moving forward because so far I’m just not seeing it at all.
I know this came up before, I'm really starting to believe that they are looking at this year as spring training for 2021. Is this all about seeing who has a glimmer of talent in them and who doesn't? I can't see any other reason for managing this way.
A lot of previous bad Pirates teams were average or below at just about every position on the field. This team is a little different in that there are multiple solid players, but the holes are cavernous. And not even trying to fill them just doesn't make sense if you're taking this season seriously at all. There is absolutely no excuse for having a roster constructed such that you're starting Cole Tucker in center less than ten games into the season.
I know this came up before, I'm really starting to believe that they are looking at this year as spring training for 2021. Is this all about seeing who has a glimmer of talent in them and who doesn't? I can't see any other reason for managing this way.
A lot of previous bad Pirates teams were average or below at just about every position on the field. This team is a little different in that there are multiple solid players, but the holes are cavernous. And not even trying to fill them just doesn't make sense if you're taking this season seriously at all. There is absolutely no excuse for having a roster constructed such that you're starting Cole Tucker in center less than ten games into the season.
I can see interest in this season is really picking up!
7A616C6D646867090 wrote: We have the worst record in all of baseball. Everyone in the world except Cherington can see what we have.
You don't need a PhD in baseball general managership to know Pittsburgh had little talent on the roster. BC knew this coming in. The comment about evaluation is nothing more than buying time. He knew what we had when he was in Toronto. Cherrington was duped into this job by Nutting's promises, or he desperately wanted another crack at a GM gig, no matter how bad the organization is/was.
If Cherrington was smart, he would have traded Bell in the offseason. Bell was coming off a pretty significant year, but he hasn't shown consistency throughout his young career. Big rookie year; subpar second year, big time first half last year, subpar second half ... off to terrible start this year. He is basically like having a stud closer. What's the point of having one when you can't get to him? Bell is useless when you can't put hitters around him. He can't carry this club.
Pitching wise, you have a former first round pick that is oft injured and hasn't materialized; a guy that had a stud second half of the 2018 season and has gone back to being the pitcher he was; an arm on the DL that you traded away the farm to get but isn't close to what he once was. NH gave up the cost for Archer when he was on the downside. That package was what he was worth three years before. You have a rookie in Keller and then ???? and ??? and ???. The bullpen is worse.
Frazier, Newman, Bell and Reynolds ... lets add Moran in there are the only competent players and the first four are off to bad starts.
Shelton hasn't done much to make me feel like he is the guy long term with his lineups and his moves to the pen utilizing certain arms. But then again, its hard to create a lineup when you have Evans, Moran as the only two over .200 right now.
You don't need a PhD in baseball general managership to know Pittsburgh had little talent on the roster. BC knew this coming in. The comment about evaluation is nothing more than buying time. He knew what we had when he was in Toronto. Cherrington was duped into this job by Nutting's promises, or he desperately wanted another crack at a GM gig, no matter how bad the organization is/was.
If Cherrington was smart, he would have traded Bell in the offseason. Bell was coming off a pretty significant year, but he hasn't shown consistency throughout his young career. Big rookie year; subpar second year, big time first half last year, subpar second half ... off to terrible start this year. He is basically like having a stud closer. What's the point of having one when you can't get to him? Bell is useless when you can't put hitters around him. He can't carry this club.
Pitching wise, you have a former first round pick that is oft injured and hasn't materialized; a guy that had a stud second half of the 2018 season and has gone back to being the pitcher he was; an arm on the DL that you traded away the farm to get but isn't close to what he once was. NH gave up the cost for Archer when he was on the downside. That package was what he was worth three years before. You have a rookie in Keller and then ???? and ??? and ???. The bullpen is worse.
Frazier, Newman, Bell and Reynolds ... lets add Moran in there are the only competent players and the first four are off to bad starts.
Shelton hasn't done much to make me feel like he is the guy long term with his lineups and his moves to the pen utilizing certain arms. But then again, its hard to create a lineup when you have Evans, Moran as the only two over .200 right now.
I can see interest in this season is really picking up!
43666565705B666E6C7B090 wrote: 9 down
51 games to go to draft Rocker
This is what I have been saying for a while. We are getting one of the top two picks of the next draft and its either Rocker or Leiter, both Vandy arms. Hell, Vandy has a better top two in the rotation than we do. There are alot of bad teams this year. Boston is bad; KC is bad; Texas ... Arizona ... the Muts ...
My fear is this team finds a way to get to 20 wins and its good enough to get the third or fourth pick in the draft. That would suck.
Rocker is a hell of an arm that could start for us now and I'm not kidding. But, it won't help this putrid offense and we have Hayes on the farm and who else that can provide help in 2021? Not much.
51 games to go to draft Rocker
This is what I have been saying for a while. We are getting one of the top two picks of the next draft and its either Rocker or Leiter, both Vandy arms. Hell, Vandy has a better top two in the rotation than we do. There are alot of bad teams this year. Boston is bad; KC is bad; Texas ... Arizona ... the Muts ...
My fear is this team finds a way to get to 20 wins and its good enough to get the third or fourth pick in the draft. That would suck.
Rocker is a hell of an arm that could start for us now and I'm not kidding. But, it won't help this putrid offense and we have Hayes on the farm and who else that can provide help in 2021? Not much.
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SteadyFreddy
I can see interest in this season is really picking up!
1C181027312114333C520 wrote: When they interview Shelton, I am reminded of Baghdad Bob. He goes on and on about how good this guy played and how good that guy pitched while we are 2-7 with the worst record in all of baseball. Yea his postgame press conferences are bizarre at times. He seems more concerned with talking about how good this guy did or that guy did rather then concerned about the overall result of the game. Like I’ve been saying I don’t wanna judge this guy too soon he doesn’t have enough of a body of work but so far I’m not seeing much I like about what Shelton brings to the table. He needs to be a lot better to show me he is the right person I want managing this team moving forward because so far I’m just not seeing it at all.
I know this came up before, I'm really starting to believe that they are looking at this year as spring training for 2021. Is this all about seeing who has a glimmer of talent in them and who doesn't? I can't see any other reason for managing this way.
A lot of previous bad Pirates teams were average or below at just about every position on the field. This team is a little different in that there are multiple solid players, but the holes are cavernous. And not even trying to fill them just doesn't make sense if you're taking this season seriously at all. There is absolutely no excuse for having a roster constructed such that you're starting Cole Tucker in center less than ten games into the season. If Shelton is punting on 2020 like a lot of people are suggesting then quit playing guys like Gonzalez, Dyson and Heredia over guys like Newman, Osuna, Tucker and Hayes when he is healthy for example that might have a future on this team moving forward. I don’t need to see Gonzalez playing short one night then 3rd the next night. Gonzalez stinks he can’t hit and isn’t gonna play short over a guy like Newman or play 3rd over guys like Moran or Hayes. I don’t need to see Dyson a guy who nobody in baseball wanted and has less then zero future here starting in CF 4-5 times a week, and a stiff like Heredia who hits .220 taking at bats and playing time away from guys like Osuna and Tucker. Play your best players basically every game in this 60 game stretch. You have nothing to lose by doing so and I just don’t feel so far Shelton has come anywhere close to doing so these first 9 games. He seems more interested in playing Mr Manager then he does winning games and playing his best players.
I know this came up before, I'm really starting to believe that they are looking at this year as spring training for 2021. Is this all about seeing who has a glimmer of talent in them and who doesn't? I can't see any other reason for managing this way.
A lot of previous bad Pirates teams were average or below at just about every position on the field. This team is a little different in that there are multiple solid players, but the holes are cavernous. And not even trying to fill them just doesn't make sense if you're taking this season seriously at all. There is absolutely no excuse for having a roster constructed such that you're starting Cole Tucker in center less than ten games into the season. If Shelton is punting on 2020 like a lot of people are suggesting then quit playing guys like Gonzalez, Dyson and Heredia over guys like Newman, Osuna, Tucker and Hayes when he is healthy for example that might have a future on this team moving forward. I don’t need to see Gonzalez playing short one night then 3rd the next night. Gonzalez stinks he can’t hit and isn’t gonna play short over a guy like Newman or play 3rd over guys like Moran or Hayes. I don’t need to see Dyson a guy who nobody in baseball wanted and has less then zero future here starting in CF 4-5 times a week, and a stiff like Heredia who hits .220 taking at bats and playing time away from guys like Osuna and Tucker. Play your best players basically every game in this 60 game stretch. You have nothing to lose by doing so and I just don’t feel so far Shelton has come anywhere close to doing so these first 9 games. He seems more interested in playing Mr Manager then he does winning games and playing his best players.
I can see interest in this season is really picking up!
183F2E2A2F320D392E2F2F324B0 wrote: When they interview Shelton, I am reminded of Baghdad Bob. He goes on and on about how good this guy played and how good that guy pitched while we are 2-7 with the worst record in all of baseball. Yea his postgame press conferences are bizarre at times. He seems more concerned with talking about how good this guy did or that guy did rather then concerned about the overall result of the game. Like I’ve been saying I don’t wanna judge this guy too soon he doesn’t have enough of a body of work but so far I’m not seeing much I like about what Shelton brings to the table. He needs to be a lot better to show me he is the right person I want managing this team moving forward because so far I’m just not seeing it at all.
I know this came up before, I'm really starting to believe that they are looking at this year as spring training for 2021. Is this all about seeing who has a glimmer of talent in them and who doesn't? I can't see any other reason for managing this way.
A lot of previous bad Pirates teams were average or below at just about every position on the field. This team is a little different in that there are multiple solid players, but the holes are cavernous. And not even trying to fill them just doesn't make sense if you're taking this season seriously at all. There is absolutely no excuse for having a roster constructed such that you're starting Cole Tucker in center less than ten games into the season. If Shelton is punting on 2020 like a lot of people are suggesting then quit playing guys like Gonzalez, Dyson and Heredia over guys like Newman, Osuna, Tucker and Hayes when he is healthy for example that might have a future on this team moving forward. I don’t need to see Gonzalez playing short one night then 3rd the next night. Gonzalez stinks he can’t hit and isn’t gonna play short over a guy like Newman or play 3rd over guys like Moran or Hayes. I don’t need to see Dyson a guy who nobody in baseball wanted and has less then zero future here starting in CF 4-5 times a week, and a stiff like Heredia who hits .220 taking at bats and playing time away from guys like Osuna and Tucker. Play your best players basically every game in this 60 game stretch. You have nothing to lose by doing so and I just don’t feel so far Shelton has come anywhere close to doing so these first 9 games. He seems more interested in playing Mr Manager then he does winning games and playing his best players.
Play the guys that have a chance to be long term solutions. Polanco isn't a long term solution; neither is Heredia; or Dyson or Gonzo. I'm intrigued enough in Evans to want to see him. Continuing to play guys that serve no purpose past this year is insane.
I know this came up before, I'm really starting to believe that they are looking at this year as spring training for 2021. Is this all about seeing who has a glimmer of talent in them and who doesn't? I can't see any other reason for managing this way.
A lot of previous bad Pirates teams were average or below at just about every position on the field. This team is a little different in that there are multiple solid players, but the holes are cavernous. And not even trying to fill them just doesn't make sense if you're taking this season seriously at all. There is absolutely no excuse for having a roster constructed such that you're starting Cole Tucker in center less than ten games into the season. If Shelton is punting on 2020 like a lot of people are suggesting then quit playing guys like Gonzalez, Dyson and Heredia over guys like Newman, Osuna, Tucker and Hayes when he is healthy for example that might have a future on this team moving forward. I don’t need to see Gonzalez playing short one night then 3rd the next night. Gonzalez stinks he can’t hit and isn’t gonna play short over a guy like Newman or play 3rd over guys like Moran or Hayes. I don’t need to see Dyson a guy who nobody in baseball wanted and has less then zero future here starting in CF 4-5 times a week, and a stiff like Heredia who hits .220 taking at bats and playing time away from guys like Osuna and Tucker. Play your best players basically every game in this 60 game stretch. You have nothing to lose by doing so and I just don’t feel so far Shelton has come anywhere close to doing so these first 9 games. He seems more interested in playing Mr Manager then he does winning games and playing his best players.
Play the guys that have a chance to be long term solutions. Polanco isn't a long term solution; neither is Heredia; or Dyson or Gonzo. I'm intrigued enough in Evans to want to see him. Continuing to play guys that serve no purpose past this year is insane.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
I can see interest in this season is really picking up!
They don't have five guys who are long-term solutions to anything.
First, we'd have to agree to the definition of 'long-term.' Long-term as in, 'McCutchen,' or, long-term, as in 'Cole?'
Then, how many are capable of taking the team any further than they did, or, even as far?
I see close to 0.
Long-term in sports today is 'two seasons.' Probably true in most of life.
First, we'd have to agree to the definition of 'long-term.' Long-term as in, 'McCutchen,' or, long-term, as in 'Cole?'
Then, how many are capable of taking the team any further than they did, or, even as far?
I see close to 0.
Long-term in sports today is 'two seasons.' Probably true in most of life.
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SteadyFreddy
I can see interest in this season is really picking up!
Guys I’d like to see playing every night are Bell,Frazier, Newman, Moran, Hayes-(when healthy), Reynolds, Tucker, Osuna. Evans intrigues me some but not enough to see everyday. And I have no interests in seeing Polanco play anymore. Those are the 9 or 10 guys that should be in the lineup every night the rest of the season period end of story. Another thing where is Will Craig at?? I can’t believe he is not good enough to not be on the roster over guys like Dyson or Heredia. This guy made your Minor League All Star team last year call him up and give him some at bats for Crying out loud.