3F363E2F215B0 wrote: Hasnt 2016 finally stuck a fork in that Searage myth? If it hasn't by now, I'm afraid of what possibly could
I guess we should ask Nova (and the extra $20 million or so he'll make at FA for his two months under Searage) ...
11 starts after changing leagues, unsustainable walk and HR rate. yes sir, ray searage at work. its not like a talented pitcher could put together a very strong two months on his own.
on the flip side,Frankie pitched as good or better than Nova in comparable time with the Jays.
so it must have been Searages fault frankie lost it for a few months. boy, glad we dont have that guy around
You know Liriano walked out of a coaching session with Searage, got rocked, did his post game interview in Spanish and then was traded.
It is hard to say how much of an impact coaches have on players. With what players have said and how other professionals copy Searage, I feel he is a doing a great job.
Liriano was awful in 2016. Maybe he stopped listening or wanted not to be coached, we don't really know.
A Player The Bucs Might Pursue
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
A Player The Bucs Might Pursue
6A61696560617A3F394E776F666161206D610E0 wrote: Hasnt 2016 finally stuck a fork in that Searage myth? If it hasn't by now, I'm afraid of what possibly could
I guess we should ask Nova (and the extra $20 million or so he'll make at FA for his two months under Searage) ...
11 starts after changing leagues, unsustainable walk and HR rate. yes sir, ray searage at work. its not like a talented pitcher could put together a very strong two months on his own.
on the flip side,Frankie pitched as good or better than Nova in comparable time with the Jays.
so it must have been Searages fault frankie lost it for a few months. boy, glad we dont have that guy around
You know Liriano walked out of a coaching session with Searage, got rocked, did his post game interview in Spanish and then was traded.
It is hard to say how much of an impact coaches have on players. With what players have said and how other professionals copy Searage, I feel he is a doing a great job.
Liriano was awful in 2016. Maybe he stopped listening or wanted not to be coached, we don't really know.
"we really do not know" is a much different position than "Searage is magic and will fix him". So if that's your new position on the impact of a pitching coach in MLB, so be it.
I lean between "we really don't know" and "it's all largely a bunch of hooey with all pitching coaches"
Searage's inability to repeat his "magic" with the same players he supposedly fixed only months before... TO ME points to it being a lot of small-sample size nonsense.
Regardless... we can't acquire 3 bums / reclamation projects and have Searage's mysticism work on 1 of them.. ( and for short times at that!) We will lose every time with that strategy because 2 will still stink and still using up innings while stinking. Which means we're better off as a team getting 1 already good/ solid pitcher vs 3 reclamation projects using innings.
I guess we should ask Nova (and the extra $20 million or so he'll make at FA for his two months under Searage) ...
11 starts after changing leagues, unsustainable walk and HR rate. yes sir, ray searage at work. its not like a talented pitcher could put together a very strong two months on his own.
on the flip side,Frankie pitched as good or better than Nova in comparable time with the Jays.
so it must have been Searages fault frankie lost it for a few months. boy, glad we dont have that guy around
You know Liriano walked out of a coaching session with Searage, got rocked, did his post game interview in Spanish and then was traded.
It is hard to say how much of an impact coaches have on players. With what players have said and how other professionals copy Searage, I feel he is a doing a great job.
Liriano was awful in 2016. Maybe he stopped listening or wanted not to be coached, we don't really know.
"we really do not know" is a much different position than "Searage is magic and will fix him". So if that's your new position on the impact of a pitching coach in MLB, so be it.
I lean between "we really don't know" and "it's all largely a bunch of hooey with all pitching coaches"
Searage's inability to repeat his "magic" with the same players he supposedly fixed only months before... TO ME points to it being a lot of small-sample size nonsense.
Regardless... we can't acquire 3 bums / reclamation projects and have Searage's mysticism work on 1 of them.. ( and for short times at that!) We will lose every time with that strategy because 2 will still stink and still using up innings while stinking. Which means we're better off as a team getting 1 already good/ solid pitcher vs 3 reclamation projects using innings.
A Player The Bucs Might Pursue
So when the Pirates have success with a pitcher.....Searage gets credit and it's assumed he can fix anyone. But when the pitchers don't perform well....its because they either weren't very good or weren't listening to Searage and he gets no blame and it's still assumed he can fix anyone.
Got it.
Listen....Searge is a good pitching coach and deserves a measure of credit for some of the pitchers that seems to have flourished under him. But as this year proved....it's not all about Searage and assuming he can fix anyone is both ignorantly and arrogantly false.
Got it.
Listen....Searge is a good pitching coach and deserves a measure of credit for some of the pitchers that seems to have flourished under him. But as this year proved....it's not all about Searage and assuming he can fix anyone is both ignorantly and arrogantly false.
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Bobster21
A Player The Bucs Might Pursue
1535263B3A540 wrote: So when the Pirates have success with a pitcher.....Searage gets credit and it's assumed he can fix anyone. But when the pitchers don't perform well....its because they either weren't very good or weren't listening to Searage and he gets no blame and it's still assumed he can fix anyone.
Got it.
Listen....Searge is a good pitching coach and deserves a measure of credit for some of the pitchers that seems to have flourished under him. But as this year proved....it's not all about Searage and assuming he can fix anyone is both ignorantly and arrogantly false.
I agree. He's about as good a pitching coach you'll find. He can observe pitchers and make suggestions but he can't go to the mound and throw the pitches for them. Some players are more receptive than others to coaching. So the Pirates could look at 2 pitchers of equal ability and think Searage could help both but maybe only one successfully utilizes the coaching he received. There are no guarantees that this approach will work every time. So it remains a risky strategy to consistently acquire pitchers who need to be fixed instead of those who are already efficient and productive.
Got it.
Listen....Searge is a good pitching coach and deserves a measure of credit for some of the pitchers that seems to have flourished under him. But as this year proved....it's not all about Searage and assuming he can fix anyone is both ignorantly and arrogantly false.
I agree. He's about as good a pitching coach you'll find. He can observe pitchers and make suggestions but he can't go to the mound and throw the pitches for them. Some players are more receptive than others to coaching. So the Pirates could look at 2 pitchers of equal ability and think Searage could help both but maybe only one successfully utilizes the coaching he received. There are no guarantees that this approach will work every time. So it remains a risky strategy to consistently acquire pitchers who need to be fixed instead of those who are already efficient and productive.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
A Player The Bucs Might Pursue
I agree with Bobster.
I never thought it was a guarantee that Searage can fix everyone. More than one player have spoke highly of him. More than one scout/GM have spoke highly of him too.
I think the Pirates see some things in certain pitchers thinking if they "did this or that" they would be better. That is the approach I hope they are taking when they bring in guys like Happ, Nova, Volquez, Burnett. If they are just bringing in bad pitchers to begin with, that is trouble.
And we don't really know as fans. You can say Searage didn't help Locke, but we have no idea how bad Locke would be without Searage. Maybe Searage did make him better? He wasn't very good, but he might have been even worse without Searage.
I never thought it was a guarantee that Searage can fix everyone. More than one player have spoke highly of him. More than one scout/GM have spoke highly of him too.
I think the Pirates see some things in certain pitchers thinking if they "did this or that" they would be better. That is the approach I hope they are taking when they bring in guys like Happ, Nova, Volquez, Burnett. If they are just bringing in bad pitchers to begin with, that is trouble.
And we don't really know as fans. You can say Searage didn't help Locke, but we have no idea how bad Locke would be without Searage. Maybe Searage did make him better? He wasn't very good, but he might have been even worse without Searage.
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Bobster21
A Player The Bucs Might Pursue
070C04080D0C175254231A020B0C0C4D000C630 wrote: You can say Searage didn't help Locke, but we have no idea how bad Locke would be without Searage. Maybe Searage did make him better? He wasn't very good, but he might have been even worse without Searage.
That's a scary thought.
That's a scary thought.
A Player The Bucs Might Pursue
Pirates will make Rivero into a starter since we need a lefty .
Cole
Tallion
Rivero
Kuhl
Glasnow
Duncan /Kingman/ Hutchison / Barault / Sadler
I forgot about Glasnow
Just let them all take their bumps next year .We arent getting past the Cubs or Cards.
Hope Cutch and Cole bounce back and flip them at the deadline.
We missed our window now we have to regroup.
Cubs have old Lackey and Lester and Jake about to get paid $$$$$.
They wont pay them all.
Cole
Tallion
Rivero
Kuhl
Glasnow
Duncan /Kingman/ Hutchison / Barault / Sadler
I forgot about Glasnow
Just let them all take their bumps next year .We arent getting past the Cubs or Cards.
Hope Cutch and Cole bounce back and flip them at the deadline.
We missed our window now we have to regroup.
Cubs have old Lackey and Lester and Jake about to get paid $$$$$.
They wont pay them all.
A Player The Bucs Might Pursue
1E252F24084C0 wrote: Pirates will make Rivero into a starter since we need a lefty .
Cole
Tallion
Rivero
Kuhl
Glasnow
Duncan /Kingman/ Hutchison / Barault / Sadler
I forgot about Glasnow
Just let them all take their bumps next year .We arent getting past the Cubs or Cards.
Hope Cutch and Cole bounce back and flip them at the deadline.
We missed our window now we have to regroup.
Cubs have old Lackey and Lester and Jake about to get paid $$$$$.
They wont pay them all.
JMO, Rivero might scream future closer. Could he be the heir apparent for Watson? Something to ponder.
Cole
Tallion
Rivero
Kuhl
Glasnow
Duncan /Kingman/ Hutchison / Barault / Sadler
I forgot about Glasnow
Just let them all take their bumps next year .We arent getting past the Cubs or Cards.
Hope Cutch and Cole bounce back and flip them at the deadline.
We missed our window now we have to regroup.
Cubs have old Lackey and Lester and Jake about to get paid $$$$$.
They wont pay them all.
JMO, Rivero might scream future closer. Could he be the heir apparent for Watson? Something to ponder.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
A Player The Bucs Might Pursue
I don't see Rivero as a starter either.
I want a right-handed Closer. I want Melancon back. Rivero and Watson setting up for Melancon would be great. One of them could come in earlier to face that big lefty and the other still available to get the win.
I want a right-handed Closer. I want Melancon back. Rivero and Watson setting up for Melancon would be great. One of them could come in earlier to face that big lefty and the other still available to get the win.
A Player The Bucs Might Pursue
505B535F5A5B400503744D555C5B5B1A575B340 wrote: I don't see Rivero as a starter either.
I want a right-handed Closer. I want Melancon back. Rivero and Watson setting up for Melancon would be great. One of them could come in earlier to face that big lefty and the other still available to get the win.
I want a bonafide number one pitcher for the rotation, but like you wanting Melancon back, neither are happening. If we had a more competitive owner, then maybe. I don't think Watson is a closer to be honest. Think he is a great 8th inning guy. Wouldn't be shocked if out MO continued on reclamation projects and Greg Holland is signed for a one year deal.
I want a right-handed Closer. I want Melancon back. Rivero and Watson setting up for Melancon would be great. One of them could come in earlier to face that big lefty and the other still available to get the win.
I want a bonafide number one pitcher for the rotation, but like you wanting Melancon back, neither are happening. If we had a more competitive owner, then maybe. I don't think Watson is a closer to be honest. Think he is a great 8th inning guy. Wouldn't be shocked if out MO continued on reclamation projects and Greg Holland is signed for a one year deal.