A negative thought and a positive thought:
Negative:
Since things went bad about 12 days ago, it is unreal the way the Pirates have found inexplicable ways to lose games in killer, gut-wrenching fashion:
* Blown lead in Chicago with 1 out in the 9th
* Lost 1-0 at home to a Brewers team that had 3 hits
* Blown lead with 2 outs, 2 strikes in 9th vs. Cards
* Idiot baserunning and left world on base last night vs. Reds
At least we are equal opportunity ... losing to all 4 teams in the division and 4 teams that I hate. That has made this stretch all the more torturous.
Now, trying to be positive, just for my own sanity:
Last night on TV an announcer noted that the Royals are now 4 games out of the wild card and it looks like they have run out of gas. Then he said, "But you know, it is incredibly hard to make the playoffs 3 years in a row."
And that got me to thinking ... the Pirates are trying to make postseason 4 years in a row. That's only happened 13 times in baseball history. Pirates were trying to become the 14th team to do it.
It's just extremely hard. The odds are against it. The Pirates have a good franchise and a good team, but this is just one of those years that pretty much everything has gone wrong ... some front-office decisions, players underachieving in a big way, injuries, bad breaks, stupid play, lots of late-inning losses. It's just one of those years.
Maybe the Pirates were due for this kind of year and hopefully now we're getting it all out of our system and setting up for a big 2017.
Negative Positive
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3488
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
Negative Positive
I agree it is tough to make post season four years in a row. Sometimes things just don't go the right way for a team. In a good year either Harrison or Frazier would have got a hit last night to win that game. Some players are having below par years this season. The Bucs still have a talented team, so who knows the stars may align for them in 2017.
Negative Positive
I remember reading a book once by a member of the 60's Pirates team. The team played well in 58 and then had a bad year in 59. His take was they just figured they would do well in 59, and they forgot how hard you have to work to win. He felt they were much more ready coming into 60.
Not sure how valid that is (or even how accurate my memory is at this point), but you could see that as a positive.
Not sure how valid that is (or even how accurate my memory is at this point), but you could see that as a positive.
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Bobster21
Negative Positive
2C2E343224410 wrote: I remember reading a book once by a member of the 60's Pirates team. The team played well in 58 and then had a bad year in 59. His take was they just figured they would do well in 59, and they forgot how hard you have to work to win. He felt they were much more ready coming into 60.
Not sure how valid that is (or even how accurate my memory is at this point), but you could see that as a positive.
That's a valid point. After knowing nothing but losing since 1949, the 1958 Bucs finished in 2nd place. But in 1959, Maz and Bob Friend showed up for camp overweight and both had bad seasons. Young 1958 pitching stars George Witt and Curt Raydon had injuries that ruined their 1959 seasons. Bob Skinner, Bill Virdon, Dick Groat and 4th outfielder Roman Mejias all had worse seasons than the year before.
The 1960 championship team was essentially the same team that faded in 1959. Everyone showed up in good shape. The FO added Gino Cimoli as the 4th outfielder and made a trade in late May for LHP Vinegar Bend Mizell. Platoon catcher Hal Smith was added. Rookies Joe Gibbon and Fred Green strengthened the bullpen and rookie Tom Cheney was a mid season addition who both started and relieved. Veteran reliever Clem Labine was an August waiver pickup. Roberto Clemente had a breakout year. Dick Groat had an MVP season. Don Hoak had an outstanding year. Maz, Virdon and Skinner all bounced back.
So it's possible the 2017 Pirates could rebound by getting more production out of players who had bad years in 2016, getting super seasons from a few players and by adding young pitchers and veteran pickups. It's a lot to hope for but not impossible.
Not sure how valid that is (or even how accurate my memory is at this point), but you could see that as a positive.
That's a valid point. After knowing nothing but losing since 1949, the 1958 Bucs finished in 2nd place. But in 1959, Maz and Bob Friend showed up for camp overweight and both had bad seasons. Young 1958 pitching stars George Witt and Curt Raydon had injuries that ruined their 1959 seasons. Bob Skinner, Bill Virdon, Dick Groat and 4th outfielder Roman Mejias all had worse seasons than the year before.
The 1960 championship team was essentially the same team that faded in 1959. Everyone showed up in good shape. The FO added Gino Cimoli as the 4th outfielder and made a trade in late May for LHP Vinegar Bend Mizell. Platoon catcher Hal Smith was added. Rookies Joe Gibbon and Fred Green strengthened the bullpen and rookie Tom Cheney was a mid season addition who both started and relieved. Veteran reliever Clem Labine was an August waiver pickup. Roberto Clemente had a breakout year. Dick Groat had an MVP season. Don Hoak had an outstanding year. Maz, Virdon and Skinner all bounced back.
So it's possible the 2017 Pirates could rebound by getting more production out of players who had bad years in 2016, getting super seasons from a few players and by adding young pitchers and veteran pickups. It's a lot to hope for but not impossible.
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PirateGold
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:20 pm
Negative Positive
The consecutive years in the post season stat is misleading in that prior to the wild card, only three franchises - the Yankees (multiple times), the Giants in the early 1920s and the A's in the early 1970s accomplished the feat four straight times. Now, 8 teams have done it in the past 20 years. It's still impressive, but it isn't nearly as hard when put into context of recent history and how the wild card has impacted it.
13 of the 30 franchises have made the post season at least 3 years in a row in the wild card era. 25 of the 30 franchises have made it back-to-back in the wild card era.
13 of the 30 franchises have made the post season at least 3 years in a row in the wild card era. 25 of the 30 franchises have made it back-to-back in the wild card era.
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DemDog
Negative Positive
466B66777061763635040 wrote: I remember reading a book once by a member of the 60's Pirates team. The team played well in 58 and then had a bad year in 59. His take was they just figured they would do well in 59, and they forgot how hard you have to work to win. He felt they were much more ready coming into 60.
Not sure how valid that is (or even how accurate my memory is at this point), but you could see that as a positive.
That's a valid point. After knowing nothing but losing since 1949, the 1958 Bucs finished in 2nd place. But in 1959, Maz and Bob Friend showed up for camp overweight and both had bad seasons. Young 1958 pitching stars George Witt and Curt Raydon had injuries that ruined their 1959 seasons. Bob Skinner, Bill Virdon, Dick Groat and 4th outfielder Roman Mejias all had worse seasons than the year before.
The 1960 championship team was essentially the same team that faded in 1959. Everyone showed up in good shape. The FO added Gino Cimoli as the 4th outfielder and made a trade in late May for LHP Vinegar Bend Mizell. Platoon catcher Hal Smith was added. Rookies Joe Gibbon and Fred Green strengthened the bullpen and rookie Tom Cheney was a mid season addition who both started and relieved. Veteran reliever Clem Labine was an August waiver pickup. Roberto Clemente had a breakout year. Dick Groat had an MVP season. Don Hoak had an outstanding year. Maz, Virdon and Skinner all bounced back.
So it's possible the 2017 Pirates could rebound by getting more production out of players who had bad years in 2016, getting super seasons from a few players and by adding young pitchers and veteran pickups. It's a lot to hope for not not impossible.
Thanks for the info Bobster. Seems I have recently read something about those moves recently. Darn if I can remember the name of the book or the author but it was a lot about the 60 Bucs! ::)
Not sure how valid that is (or even how accurate my memory is at this point), but you could see that as a positive.
That's a valid point. After knowing nothing but losing since 1949, the 1958 Bucs finished in 2nd place. But in 1959, Maz and Bob Friend showed up for camp overweight and both had bad seasons. Young 1958 pitching stars George Witt and Curt Raydon had injuries that ruined their 1959 seasons. Bob Skinner, Bill Virdon, Dick Groat and 4th outfielder Roman Mejias all had worse seasons than the year before.
The 1960 championship team was essentially the same team that faded in 1959. Everyone showed up in good shape. The FO added Gino Cimoli as the 4th outfielder and made a trade in late May for LHP Vinegar Bend Mizell. Platoon catcher Hal Smith was added. Rookies Joe Gibbon and Fred Green strengthened the bullpen and rookie Tom Cheney was a mid season addition who both started and relieved. Veteran reliever Clem Labine was an August waiver pickup. Roberto Clemente had a breakout year. Dick Groat had an MVP season. Don Hoak had an outstanding year. Maz, Virdon and Skinner all bounced back.
So it's possible the 2017 Pirates could rebound by getting more production out of players who had bad years in 2016, getting super seasons from a few players and by adding young pitchers and veteran pickups. It's a lot to hope for not not impossible.
Thanks for the info Bobster. Seems I have recently read something about those moves recently. Darn if I can remember the name of the book or the author but it was a lot about the 60 Bucs! ::)
Negative Positive
7C515C4D4A5B4C0C0F3E0 wrote: I remember reading a book once by a member of the 60's Pirates team. The team played well in 58 and then had a bad year in 59. His take was they just figured they would do well in 59, and they forgot how hard you have to work to win. He felt they were much more ready coming into 60.
Not sure how valid that is (or even how accurate my memory is at this point), but you could see that as a positive.
That's a valid point. After knowing nothing but losing since 1949, the 1958 Bucs finished in 2nd place. But in 1959, Maz and Bob Friend showed up for camp overweight and both had bad seasons. Young 1958 pitching stars George Witt and Curt Raydon had injuries that ruined their 1959 seasons. Bob Skinner, Bill Virdon, Dick Groat and 4th outfielder Roman Mejias all had worse seasons than the year before.
The 1960 championship team was essentially the same team that faded in 1959. Everyone showed up in good shape. The FO added Gino Cimoli as the 4th outfielder and made a trade in late May for LHP Vinegar Bend Mizell. Platoon catcher Hal Smith was added. Rookies Joe Gibbon and Fred Green strengthened the bullpen and rookie Tom Cheney was a mid season addition who both started and relieved. Veteran reliever Clem Labine was an August waiver pickup. Roberto Clemente had a breakout year. Dick Groat had an MVP season. Don Hoak had an outstanding year. Maz, Virdon and Skinner all bounced back.
So it's possible the 2017 Pirates could rebound by getting more production out of players who had bad years in 2016, getting super seasons from a few players and by adding young pitchers and veteran pickups. It's a lot to hope for but not impossible.
Cool stuff Mouse & Bobster!
Another more recent example that's similar is the 1990 Pirate team. In 1986 & 1987 the Pirates finished in 6th (last place) and 5th respectively. In 1988 the team's young talent (Bonds, Bonilla, Van Slyke, Drabek, Smiley) started to produce as folks had expected and the Pirates finished 85-75, 2nd in the division and above .500 for the first time since 1983. Everyone thought with all of the young guys coming back the next year the team would be challenging for a championship.
It didn't happen. In 1989 the Pirates finished 5th with a 74-88 record. Van Slyke and Bonds had sub-par years as did Lind and Bell. However 1990 proved to be the year that 1989 was supposed to be. The Pirates won the first of 3 consecutive division titles going 95-67. All of the young guys took major steps forward in their production.
Sometimes things happen to a team in any given year that cause an unexpected setback. Maybe the 2016 Pirates are that temporary setback that 1959 and 1989 were in their respective eras. We can hope!
Not sure how valid that is (or even how accurate my memory is at this point), but you could see that as a positive.
That's a valid point. After knowing nothing but losing since 1949, the 1958 Bucs finished in 2nd place. But in 1959, Maz and Bob Friend showed up for camp overweight and both had bad seasons. Young 1958 pitching stars George Witt and Curt Raydon had injuries that ruined their 1959 seasons. Bob Skinner, Bill Virdon, Dick Groat and 4th outfielder Roman Mejias all had worse seasons than the year before.
The 1960 championship team was essentially the same team that faded in 1959. Everyone showed up in good shape. The FO added Gino Cimoli as the 4th outfielder and made a trade in late May for LHP Vinegar Bend Mizell. Platoon catcher Hal Smith was added. Rookies Joe Gibbon and Fred Green strengthened the bullpen and rookie Tom Cheney was a mid season addition who both started and relieved. Veteran reliever Clem Labine was an August waiver pickup. Roberto Clemente had a breakout year. Dick Groat had an MVP season. Don Hoak had an outstanding year. Maz, Virdon and Skinner all bounced back.
So it's possible the 2017 Pirates could rebound by getting more production out of players who had bad years in 2016, getting super seasons from a few players and by adding young pitchers and veteran pickups. It's a lot to hope for but not impossible.
Cool stuff Mouse & Bobster!
Another more recent example that's similar is the 1990 Pirate team. In 1986 & 1987 the Pirates finished in 6th (last place) and 5th respectively. In 1988 the team's young talent (Bonds, Bonilla, Van Slyke, Drabek, Smiley) started to produce as folks had expected and the Pirates finished 85-75, 2nd in the division and above .500 for the first time since 1983. Everyone thought with all of the young guys coming back the next year the team would be challenging for a championship.
It didn't happen. In 1989 the Pirates finished 5th with a 74-88 record. Van Slyke and Bonds had sub-par years as did Lind and Bell. However 1990 proved to be the year that 1989 was supposed to be. The Pirates won the first of 3 consecutive division titles going 95-67. All of the young guys took major steps forward in their production.
Sometimes things happen to a team in any given year that cause an unexpected setback. Maybe the 2016 Pirates are that temporary setback that 1959 and 1989 were in their respective eras. We can hope!
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OrlandoMerced
Negative Positive
I think the twenty years of losing pushed these realities out of scope. It's the typical experience for competent teams to have down years and rebound years.
They definitely have the pieces in place, I think they come back next year with almost the same roster. The supporting cast is the strong and experienced now, if Cole comes back and competes for a cy young and mccutchen for mvp, not only does the team realize those improvements, but also boosts the rest of the team.
They definitely have the pieces in place, I think they come back next year with almost the same roster. The supporting cast is the strong and experienced now, if Cole comes back and competes for a cy young and mccutchen for mvp, not only does the team realize those improvements, but also boosts the rest of the team.