3F382E26283F78740D2A202C2421632E22204D0 wrote:
DEFENDING (which is very different than shrugging shoulders and saying "what can I do?") the owner for refusing to manage a "bad" contract like the rest of baseball, assigning zero value to the prospects, calling Larinio a "cancer" - that's not apologist?
Who managed that bad contract. Seriously, the owner? It fell on NH to manage it because of a bad owner -- and he is the General Manager after all. So, in your book, NH just quits doing anything as the GM until Nutting opens his purse up? That's the only acceptable way to deal with a bad contract. And if I, or anyone else, thinks NH had to act instead of wait for Nutting to change, then I'm apologizing for the owner?
NH deals with ridiculous restraints that a bad owner has given him and I don't like how he does it -- this is what he should have done!
NH does a pretty good job at the restraints he's been given despite a bad owner -- and I OK with it in this case and this is why!
Those are the two arguments.
I bristle at the idea that anyone thinks NH taking action to work within the restraints of bad ownership is a justification for that bad ownership.
No. I'm not saying that. To the contrary, I think Neal is a good GM with some concerns about drafts. But I think he's a ++ GM given his reality.
I'm saying that some posters justify a small payroll because some teams with bigger payrolls don't win the WS (just as an example), or some have assigned zero value to prospects to justify moving them in a salary dump when we rarely move prospects to help the team (just as another example). I can give other examples (moving Frankie allows us to allocate $$ to Nova, but there is nothing said about the $$$ saved on Jung Ho and Marte not being allocated back to the team...)
None of this is on Neal. I think you can love the Pirates, think Neal does overall very good job, and believe the owner is not running the team in the same manner as the rest of MLB, and the fact "Team X" didn't win the WS with a payroll that's larger than the Pirates DOES NOT vindicate Mr Nutting's small payroll.
Think of how many times it's been said: "so you want to spend money just to have a bigger payroll!?" Of course not, but it's a regular "argument" offered up and I'd say that's being an apologist for Mr Nutting. That is totally different than what you're saying.
VaPirate, that's it exactly. Those who counter the claim that the Pirates should spend more than their usual minimum by saying they can't be expected to spend like the Yankees or Dodgers are completely dismissing that all anyone wants is to spend a respectable, middle of the road amount. That's a way of rationalizing (apologizing for) Nutting's cheapness. Then there's the argument that they have outspent other teams at the trade deadline. Wow. So They let other teams pay 5/6th of a player's salary and then let him go as a FA after the season. Not exactly proof of big spending. So now we're supposed to be elated that they saved 17 million (sorry, Tintin, you keep saying 20 but it's still 17) by sacrificing prospects one team thought was worth a lot of money instead of a player. I could understand it better if it was a high payroll out of control rather than one of MLB's lowest. It's hard to imagine any other team adding two even mid-range prospects into a trade with a starting pitcher in exchange for a failed pitcher and money relief. Especially after we've been told that suspect deals in the past have given the team financial flexibility. There's no flexibility when you have to go to extreme lengths to save money a lot of other teams wouldn't even blink at.
Trade Deadline Thread
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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rucker59@gmail.com
Trade Deadline Thread
Yea, don't get me started on "financial flexibility"... >:(
No doubt, some are saying "why is this even in the tread?" First, I didn't bring it up, just responding to another post. But it's a relevant point - the tread is about Pirate options as a buyer at the deadline. The reality is, almost any discussion is irrelevant because of the way this team is run.
Example: listening to the FAN pregame and Jack Z tossed out a GREAT opportunity for the Pirates - Ian Kinsler from the Tigers. Turn 2nd over to Ian and move JHay to 3rd. Further, if the Pirates make the playoffs, Josh can move to left field and a rested Freese could take 3rd. PERFECT move, except he'll probably cost too much in payroll and prospects. He'll probably be due ~$4M for the rest of 2017 and the team has a $12M (I believe) option for 2018.
We already know the Pirates won't exercise the option, which means the Pirates won't trade any prospects for a rental which means a near perfect addition to this team is not even worth talking because we don't do this kind of pretty std baseball move.
I wonder....would those two prospects we gave away might have been part of a real baseball move with the Tigers?....
No doubt, some are saying "why is this even in the tread?" First, I didn't bring it up, just responding to another post. But it's a relevant point - the tread is about Pirate options as a buyer at the deadline. The reality is, almost any discussion is irrelevant because of the way this team is run.
Example: listening to the FAN pregame and Jack Z tossed out a GREAT opportunity for the Pirates - Ian Kinsler from the Tigers. Turn 2nd over to Ian and move JHay to 3rd. Further, if the Pirates make the playoffs, Josh can move to left field and a rested Freese could take 3rd. PERFECT move, except he'll probably cost too much in payroll and prospects. He'll probably be due ~$4M for the rest of 2017 and the team has a $12M (I believe) option for 2018.
We already know the Pirates won't exercise the option, which means the Pirates won't trade any prospects for a rental which means a near perfect addition to this team is not even worth talking because we don't do this kind of pretty std baseball move.
I wonder....would those two prospects we gave away might have been part of a real baseball move with the Tigers?....
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ChitownBucco
- Posts: 492
- Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:10 pm
Trade Deadline Thread
didn't bucs acquire the most players with cash owed in 2 out of the last 4-5 deadlines?
Trade Deadline Thread
202731393720676B12353F333B3E7C313D3F520 wrote: Yea, don't get me started on "financial flexibility"... >:(
No doubt, some are saying "why is this even in the tread?" First, I didn't bring it up, just responding to another post. But it's a relevant point - the tread is about Pirate options as a buyer at the deadline. The reality is, almost any discussion is irrelevant because of the way this team is run.
Example: listening to the FAN pregame and Jack Z tossed out a GREAT opportunity for the Pirates - Ian Kinsler from the Tigers. Turn 2nd over to Ian and move JHay to 3rd. Further, if the Pirates make the playoffs, Josh can move to left field and a rested Freese could take 3rd. PERFECT move, except he'll probably cost too much in payroll and prospects. He'll probably be due ~$4M for the rest of 2017 and the team has a $12M (I believe) option for 2018.
We already know the Pirates won't exercise the option, which means the Pirates won't trade any prospects for a rental which means a near perfect addition to this team is not even worth talking because we don't do this kind of pretty std baseball move.
I wonder....would those two prospects we gave away might have been part of a real baseball move with the Tigers?....
Kinsler isn't having a good year so he shouldn't cost much in prospects. His buyout for 2018 is 5 million. I would guess if the Pirates seriously consider him they hope he plays well enough that they would want to pick up his option rather than pay the buyout.
Anyone remember that a couple years ago the Jayson Werth contract was going to kill the Nats? He is making $21 million this season.
Don't know how accurate it is but found the salaries (including 2017 draft picks and 40 man roster) of both Pirates and Nats on Sportstrac:
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/washington-n ... s/payroll/
No doubt, some are saying "why is this even in the tread?" First, I didn't bring it up, just responding to another post. But it's a relevant point - the tread is about Pirate options as a buyer at the deadline. The reality is, almost any discussion is irrelevant because of the way this team is run.
Example: listening to the FAN pregame and Jack Z tossed out a GREAT opportunity for the Pirates - Ian Kinsler from the Tigers. Turn 2nd over to Ian and move JHay to 3rd. Further, if the Pirates make the playoffs, Josh can move to left field and a rested Freese could take 3rd. PERFECT move, except he'll probably cost too much in payroll and prospects. He'll probably be due ~$4M for the rest of 2017 and the team has a $12M (I believe) option for 2018.
We already know the Pirates won't exercise the option, which means the Pirates won't trade any prospects for a rental which means a near perfect addition to this team is not even worth talking because we don't do this kind of pretty std baseball move.
I wonder....would those two prospects we gave away might have been part of a real baseball move with the Tigers?....
Kinsler isn't having a good year so he shouldn't cost much in prospects. His buyout for 2018 is 5 million. I would guess if the Pirates seriously consider him they hope he plays well enough that they would want to pick up his option rather than pay the buyout.
Anyone remember that a couple years ago the Jayson Werth contract was going to kill the Nats? He is making $21 million this season.
Don't know how accurate it is but found the salaries (including 2017 draft picks and 40 man roster) of both Pirates and Nats on Sportstrac:
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/washington-n ... s/payroll/
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rucker59@gmail.com
Trade Deadline Thread
072120372131420 wrote: Yea, don't get me started on "financial flexibility"... >:(
No doubt, some are saying "why is this even in the tread?" First, I didn't bring it up, just responding to another post. But it's a relevant point - the tread is about Pirate options as a buyer at the deadline. The reality is, almost any discussion is irrelevant because of the way this team is run.
Example: listening to the FAN pregame and Jack Z tossed out a GREAT opportunity for the Pirates - Ian Kinsler from the Tigers. Turn 2nd over to Ian and move JHay to 3rd. Further, if the Pirates make the playoffs, Josh can move to left field and a rested Freese could take 3rd. PERFECT move, except he'll probably cost too much in payroll and prospects. He'll probably be due ~$4M for the rest of 2017 and the team has a $12M (I believe) option for 2018.
We already know the Pirates won't exercise the option, which means the Pirates won't trade any prospects for a rental which means a near perfect addition to this team is not even worth talking because we don't do this kind of pretty std baseball move.
I wonder....would those two prospects we gave away might have been part of a real baseball move with the Tigers?....
Kinsler isn't having a good year so he shouldn't cost much in prospects. His buyout for 2018 is 5 million. I would guess if the Pirates seriously consider him they hope he plays well enough that they would want to pick up his option rather than pay the buyout.
Anyone remember that a couple years ago the Jayson Werth contract was going to kill the Nats? He is making $21 million this season.
Don't know how accurate it is but found the salaries (including 2017 draft picks and 40 man roster) of both Pirates and Nats on Sportstrac:
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/washington-n ... s/payroll/
Yeah, Kinsler is having a down year, but I think he's hitting with some power and average around .250.
I figured the down numbers would actually benefit the Pirates by bringing the cost down. And I think he could bounce back with the right team. But even if he doesn't, he slotsinto a position that can help the Pirates all around the field and into the bench.
He looks like a great opportunity to me....until you brought up his buy-out. OUCH!! That would make a lot of teams window shop and move on.
But maybe the value is still there - maybe the Pirates could look at Kinsler as an important piece for 2018 as well. Gotta assume Kung will not be back so we will once again gave a problem at 3rd. Acquire Kinsler to take over 2nd and make Jhay the everyday 3rd base.
I think the option year is $12M. That maybe more then he's worth "internally" but for one year that doesn't seem too expensive to truly upgrade the team and fill the biggest question going into 2018.
Add Kinsler by trade deadline with plans to exercise option - that's my hope for the Pirates.
What would they have to give up???
No doubt, some are saying "why is this even in the tread?" First, I didn't bring it up, just responding to another post. But it's a relevant point - the tread is about Pirate options as a buyer at the deadline. The reality is, almost any discussion is irrelevant because of the way this team is run.
Example: listening to the FAN pregame and Jack Z tossed out a GREAT opportunity for the Pirates - Ian Kinsler from the Tigers. Turn 2nd over to Ian and move JHay to 3rd. Further, if the Pirates make the playoffs, Josh can move to left field and a rested Freese could take 3rd. PERFECT move, except he'll probably cost too much in payroll and prospects. He'll probably be due ~$4M for the rest of 2017 and the team has a $12M (I believe) option for 2018.
We already know the Pirates won't exercise the option, which means the Pirates won't trade any prospects for a rental which means a near perfect addition to this team is not even worth talking because we don't do this kind of pretty std baseball move.
I wonder....would those two prospects we gave away might have been part of a real baseball move with the Tigers?....
Kinsler isn't having a good year so he shouldn't cost much in prospects. His buyout for 2018 is 5 million. I would guess if the Pirates seriously consider him they hope he plays well enough that they would want to pick up his option rather than pay the buyout.
Anyone remember that a couple years ago the Jayson Werth contract was going to kill the Nats? He is making $21 million this season.
Don't know how accurate it is but found the salaries (including 2017 draft picks and 40 man roster) of both Pirates and Nats on Sportstrac:
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh-pirates/payroll/
http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/washington-n ... s/payroll/
Yeah, Kinsler is having a down year, but I think he's hitting with some power and average around .250.
I figured the down numbers would actually benefit the Pirates by bringing the cost down. And I think he could bounce back with the right team. But even if he doesn't, he slotsinto a position that can help the Pirates all around the field and into the bench.
He looks like a great opportunity to me....until you brought up his buy-out. OUCH!! That would make a lot of teams window shop and move on.
But maybe the value is still there - maybe the Pirates could look at Kinsler as an important piece for 2018 as well. Gotta assume Kung will not be back so we will once again gave a problem at 3rd. Acquire Kinsler to take over 2nd and make Jhay the everyday 3rd base.
I think the option year is $12M. That maybe more then he's worth "internally" but for one year that doesn't seem too expensive to truly upgrade the team and fill the biggest question going into 2018.
Add Kinsler by trade deadline with plans to exercise option - that's my hope for the Pirates.
What would they have to give up???
Trade Deadline Thread
I don't think it would cost much to get Kinsler since the Tigers could save a lot of money.
Maybe someone like Eric Wood or Braden Waddell if they want an older player.
Let's say the Bucs kept Liriano (and just released him sometime) instead of the deal to Toronto. What would fans and MLB think if Ramierez and McGuire were purchased by Blue Jays for $17 million?
The deal would be the same except Bucs wouldn't have Hutchison.
Maybe someone like Eric Wood or Braden Waddell if they want an older player.
Let's say the Bucs kept Liriano (and just released him sometime) instead of the deal to Toronto. What would fans and MLB think if Ramierez and McGuire were purchased by Blue Jays for $17 million?
The deal would be the same except Bucs wouldn't have Hutchison.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Trade Deadline Thread
Why do people want Ian Kinsler over David Freese? Isn't the idea to upgrade?
Kinsler (35 years old) 320 AB, 79 H, 9 HR, .247 Ave, .331 OBP, .400 Slg, .731 OPS.
Freese (34) 239 AB, 60 H, 7 HR, .251 Ave, .365 OBP, .372 Slg, .758 OPS.
If the Pirates don't go after Kinsler, they will be considered cheap even though he is the older, higher paid, and less of a player than the man they want to replace? I rarely agree with Jack Z. This is another example why.
Kinsler (35 years old) 320 AB, 79 H, 9 HR, .247 Ave, .331 OBP, .400 Slg, .731 OPS.
Freese (34) 239 AB, 60 H, 7 HR, .251 Ave, .365 OBP, .372 Slg, .758 OPS.
If the Pirates don't go after Kinsler, they will be considered cheap even though he is the older, higher paid, and less of a player than the man they want to replace? I rarely agree with Jack Z. This is another example why.
Trade Deadline Thread
4348404C4948531610675E464F4848094448270 wrote: Huntington has added every year at the deadline.
This is completely made up information.
This is completely made up information.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Trade Deadline Thread
39323A363332296C6A1D243C353232733E325D0 wrote: Why do people want Ian Kinsler over David Freese? Isn't the idea to upgrade?
Kinsler (35 years old) 320 AB, 79 H, 9 HR, .247 Ave, .331 OBP, .400 Slg, .731 OPS.
Freese (34) 239 AB, 60 H, 7 HR, .251 Ave, .365 OBP, .372 Slg, .758 OPS.
If the Pirates don't go after Kinsler, they will be considered cheap even though he is the older, higher paid, and less of a player than the man they want to replace? I rarely agree with Jack Z. This is another example why.
Let's set the record straight. The Pirates are cheap whether they acquire Kinsler or not. There's nothing to consider.
Kinsler (35 years old) 320 AB, 79 H, 9 HR, .247 Ave, .331 OBP, .400 Slg, .731 OPS.
Freese (34) 239 AB, 60 H, 7 HR, .251 Ave, .365 OBP, .372 Slg, .758 OPS.
If the Pirates don't go after Kinsler, they will be considered cheap even though he is the older, higher paid, and less of a player than the man they want to replace? I rarely agree with Jack Z. This is another example why.
Let's set the record straight. The Pirates are cheap whether they acquire Kinsler or not. There's nothing to consider.