3C353D2C22580 wrote:
Is Colin Moran going to be an effective major league 3rd baseman? Is Musgrove going to be an effective starter ( definitely good in the pen) ? the other two are throw ins.
I’d feel a little better about this trade if they had gotten Paulino instead of Musgrove. He has more swing-and-miss to his repertoire and higher upside. Moran, hopefully is better than average (we’ll see) then is traded in 2 years when Hayes is ready assuming Hayes has broken out with some power by then. That’s as optimistic as I can get.
Cole dealt to Astros
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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LumberCo
Cole dealt to Astros
Nutting is the problem. putting my Bucco gear away! will watch from a far but not scheduling free time during the summer to watch the team. catch parts of the game every once in a while. if the team isn't serious why should we fans be "all in"
Cole dealt to Astros
122B333C3B2C1D315E0 wrote: Nutting is the problem. putting my Bucco gear away! will watch from a far but not scheduling free time during the summer to watch the team. catch parts of the game every once in a while. if the team isn't serious why should we fans be "all in"
I went this route towards the end of last season. I've walked away from the NFL, it wasn't easy. I am really considering cutting the cord. I pay for a package just to watch this crap on tv.
I went this route towards the end of last season. I've walked away from the NFL, it wasn't easy. I am really considering cutting the cord. I pay for a package just to watch this crap on tv.
Cole dealt to Astros
3A3B2031276760540 wrote: Nutting is the problem. putting my Bucco gear away! will watch from a far but not scheduling free time during the summer to watch the team. catch parts of the game every once in a while. if the team isn't serious why should we fans be "all in"
I went this route towards the end of last season. I've walked away from the NFL, it wasn't easy. I am really considering cutting the cord. I pay for a package just to watch this crap on tv.
I won't switch from being a Pirate fan, but wonder how the Twins can go from 83 wins in 2015 to 59 in 2016 and 83 in 2017 and they decide they can be a contender. They are adding talent and they are not handicapped by the $23 million that Joe Mauer is getting.
I went this route towards the end of last season. I've walked away from the NFL, it wasn't easy. I am really considering cutting the cord. I pay for a package just to watch this crap on tv.
I won't switch from being a Pirate fan, but wonder how the Twins can go from 83 wins in 2015 to 59 in 2016 and 83 in 2017 and they decide they can be a contender. They are adding talent and they are not handicapped by the $23 million that Joe Mauer is getting.
Cole dealt to Astros
575C54585D5C470204734A525B5C5C1D505C330 wrote: It sounds like the Pirates tried to extend Cole and he was not that entertaining to the idea.
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
Thanks for the quote! Obviously Huntington knew what Cole intended to do, however it still doesn't necessarily mean that Cole's intentions were a unilateral decision. He very well may have come to that decision after the Pirate$ either declined to offer an extension or offered one he considered to be below his value.
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
Thanks for the quote! Obviously Huntington knew what Cole intended to do, however it still doesn't necessarily mean that Cole's intentions were a unilateral decision. He very well may have come to that decision after the Pirate$ either declined to offer an extension or offered one he considered to be below his value.
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steve49
Cole dealt to Astros
646D65747A000 wrote: Musgrove is another pitch to contact guy. I hate that we won't move past that ridiculous philosophy,
The two most successful starting pitchers in recent times were swing and miss guys, Burnett and Liriano. But that doesn't phase this org. Right back to Nova's and Musgrove's of the world.
The reason why Cole underperformed his stuff is because he didn't miss enough bats with it. I don't know why, but it never made sense. Astros are prolly going to change that.
Charlie Morton could've been missing bats for years, but we forced the 2-seamers on him (Astros proved last year)
I'm guessing the Jeff Luhnow is thinking the same thing with Cole.
Fan Graphs on the Astros and Cole.....https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-ast ... rrit-cole/
The two most successful starting pitchers in recent times were swing and miss guys, Burnett and Liriano. But that doesn't phase this org. Right back to Nova's and Musgrove's of the world.
The reason why Cole underperformed his stuff is because he didn't miss enough bats with it. I don't know why, but it never made sense. Astros are prolly going to change that.
Charlie Morton could've been missing bats for years, but we forced the 2-seamers on him (Astros proved last year)
I'm guessing the Jeff Luhnow is thinking the same thing with Cole.
Fan Graphs on the Astros and Cole.....https://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-ast ... rrit-cole/
Cole dealt to Astros
414840515F250 wrote: It sounds like the Pirates tried to extend Cole and he was not that entertaining to the idea.
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
Is Colin Moran going to be an effective major league 3rd baseman? Is Musgrove going to be an effective starter ( definitely good in the pen) ? the other two are throw ins.
Good questions concerning Moran and Musgrove. In general I think NH got value in the trade, but I don't think it's the right kind of value for a team like the Pirates. At age 25 Moran hasn't been able to establish himself as a MLB regular. That, and concerns about his glove and foot speed make me skeptical about him being any kind of long term answer at 3B. Musgrove at 25 being a pitcher who's had some success at the MLB level looks like a better bet to establish some value. He's got a good k/BB ratio but his other numbers don't shout that he's a special talent in any way.
These two players strike me as players who may become decent complementary types on a team with a talented core. Unfortunately the Pirate$ are not a team with an abundance of upper end talent, and Moran and Musgrove look to just add more middling talent to a roster already rife with it. So in the end the question I look to have answered is does this trade moving one of our most talented players help to elevate (now or in the future) the franchise to the point where they can be a team that can realistically compete for a post-season berth? Of course anything's possible, but right now it doesn't look like it to me.
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
Is Colin Moran going to be an effective major league 3rd baseman? Is Musgrove going to be an effective starter ( definitely good in the pen) ? the other two are throw ins.
Good questions concerning Moran and Musgrove. In general I think NH got value in the trade, but I don't think it's the right kind of value for a team like the Pirates. At age 25 Moran hasn't been able to establish himself as a MLB regular. That, and concerns about his glove and foot speed make me skeptical about him being any kind of long term answer at 3B. Musgrove at 25 being a pitcher who's had some success at the MLB level looks like a better bet to establish some value. He's got a good k/BB ratio but his other numbers don't shout that he's a special talent in any way.
These two players strike me as players who may become decent complementary types on a team with a talented core. Unfortunately the Pirate$ are not a team with an abundance of upper end talent, and Moran and Musgrove look to just add more middling talent to a roster already rife with it. So in the end the question I look to have answered is does this trade moving one of our most talented players help to elevate (now or in the future) the franchise to the point where they can be a team that can realistically compete for a post-season berth? Of course anything's possible, but right now it doesn't look like it to me.
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Bobster21
Cole dealt to Astros
4A6E7A72771B0 wrote: It sounds like the Pirates tried to extend Cole and he was not that entertaining to the idea.
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
Thanks for the quote! Obviously Huntington knew what Cole intended to do, however it still doesn't necessarily mean that Cole's intentions were a unilateral decision. He very well may have come to that decision after the Pirate$ either declined to offer an extension or offered one he considered to be below his value.
Like NH or not, he's only stating what the entire planet knew. Cole and Boros were not going to re-sign with the Pirates. That was never a realistic scenario.
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
Thanks for the quote! Obviously Huntington knew what Cole intended to do, however it still doesn't necessarily mean that Cole's intentions were a unilateral decision. He very well may have come to that decision after the Pirate$ either declined to offer an extension or offered one he considered to be below his value.
Like NH or not, he's only stating what the entire planet knew. Cole and Boros were not going to re-sign with the Pirates. That was never a realistic scenario.
Cole dealt to Astros
476A67767160773734050 wrote: It sounds like the Pirates tried to extend Cole and he was not that entertaining to the idea.
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
Thanks for the quote! Obviously Huntington knew what Cole intended to do, however it still doesn't necessarily mean that Cole's intentions were a unilateral decision. He very well may have come to that decision after the Pirate$ either declined to offer an extension or offered one he considered to be below his value.
Like NH or not, he's only stating what the entire planet knew. Cole and Boros were not going to re-sign with the Pirates. That was never a realistic scenario.
unfortunately, I don't think there is a realistic scenario where this team can become a pennant contender.
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
Thanks for the quote! Obviously Huntington knew what Cole intended to do, however it still doesn't necessarily mean that Cole's intentions were a unilateral decision. He very well may have come to that decision after the Pirate$ either declined to offer an extension or offered one he considered to be below his value.
Like NH or not, he's only stating what the entire planet knew. Cole and Boros were not going to re-sign with the Pirates. That was never a realistic scenario.
unfortunately, I don't think there is a realistic scenario where this team can become a pennant contender.
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steve49
Cole dealt to Astros
6F4B5F57523E0 wrote: It sounds like the Pirates tried to extend Cole and he was not that entertaining to the idea.
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
Is Colin Moran going to be an effective major league 3rd baseman? Is Musgrove going to be an effective starter ( definitely good in the pen) ? the other two are throw ins.
Good questions concerning Moran and Musgrove. In general I think NH got value in the trade, but I don't think it's the right kind of value for a team like the Pirates. At age 25 Moran hasn't been able to establish himself as a MLB regular. That, and concerns about his glove and foot speed make me skeptical about him being any kind of long term answer at 3B. Musgrove at 25 being a pitcher who's had some success at the MLB level looks like a better bet to establish some value. He's got a good k/BB ratio but his other numbers don't shout that he's a special talent in any way.
These two players strike me as players who may become decent complementary types on a team with a talented core. Unfortunately the Pirate$ are not a team with an abundance of upper end talent, and Moran and Musgrove look to just add more middling talent to a roster already rife with it. So in the end the question I look to have answered is does this trade moving one of our most talented players help to elevate (now or in the future) the franchise to the point where they can be a team that can realistically compete for a post-season berth? Of course anything's possible, but right now it doesn't look like it to me.
As you say "anything's possible" but what you have above is mostly right. It's described very well by Tim Williams in Pirates Prospects. We were in "no man's land" and this trade IMO does very little to tilt the scales either way. The only logical thing to do is trade players like Cole , Harrison , Cutch and Cervelli for pieces that could be special in say 3 years. Or unless Nutting is going too shell out like 80 million to bring the FA talent it would take for us to compete immediately .
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
Is Colin Moran going to be an effective major league 3rd baseman? Is Musgrove going to be an effective starter ( definitely good in the pen) ? the other two are throw ins.
Good questions concerning Moran and Musgrove. In general I think NH got value in the trade, but I don't think it's the right kind of value for a team like the Pirates. At age 25 Moran hasn't been able to establish himself as a MLB regular. That, and concerns about his glove and foot speed make me skeptical about him being any kind of long term answer at 3B. Musgrove at 25 being a pitcher who's had some success at the MLB level looks like a better bet to establish some value. He's got a good k/BB ratio but his other numbers don't shout that he's a special talent in any way.
These two players strike me as players who may become decent complementary types on a team with a talented core. Unfortunately the Pirate$ are not a team with an abundance of upper end talent, and Moran and Musgrove look to just add more middling talent to a roster already rife with it. So in the end the question I look to have answered is does this trade moving one of our most talented players help to elevate (now or in the future) the franchise to the point where they can be a team that can realistically compete for a post-season berth? Of course anything's possible, but right now it doesn't look like it to me.
As you say "anything's possible" but what you have above is mostly right. It's described very well by Tim Williams in Pirates Prospects. We were in "no man's land" and this trade IMO does very little to tilt the scales either way. The only logical thing to do is trade players like Cole , Harrison , Cutch and Cervelli for pieces that could be special in say 3 years. Or unless Nutting is going too shell out like 80 million to bring the FA talent it would take for us to compete immediately .