Cole dealt to Astros
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johnfluharty
Cole dealt to Astros
I am as underwhelmed by this deal as anyone, but I am not ready to lynch NH over it- at least not by himself. He has to do what he is told. If he was flat out told to get multiple MLB ready guys for Cole then his hands were a bit tied.
Cole dealt to Astros
2A2F282E262C352821323439400 wrote: I am as underwhelmed by this deal as anyone, but I am not ready to lynch NH over it- at least not by himself. He has to do what he is told. If he was flat out told to get multiple MLB ready guys for Cole then his hands were a bit tied.
This is not an NH problem in isolation, it's an organizational philosophy failure.
It's lack of budget, and keeping it low being the #1 priority. On it's face, as far as it goes, this IS a good deal by their standards. We got back a 20+ years of ML BB player control for 2 years of ML player control. Three of the players are likely to contribute on the ML team for several seasons together, and we got a flyer on a former good prospect.
It's not, by itself a WINNING strategy though. Only Moran is likely to be better then a decent $10mil FA/scrapheap pickup or, and that's journeyman-level pay these days. You don't trade away something in demand for a handful of average. Average can be had everywhere and cheap, obviously. You have to leverage valuable pieces into another, or more valuable pieces, or you have a roster of average.
They could salvage this move with a trade that takes on salary, or with a REAL IMPACT FA signing, using these players to support the better player(s). It's an odd off-season, as has been remarked here often. There are players out there that we could probably bring in, short-term anyway, and they'd be better-than average. But they won't do this, and further, if they did, it wouldn't negate their decision to bring in AVERAGE over finding another high-performing player or two. Such players are obviously hard to come by, so you shouldn't pass up a chance to get one, even if you miss and he flames out, and/or you miss out on 20+ years of ML control of average players.
Dont' trade valuable pieces for average, not when you refuse to go out and pay for impact players, and your scouting staff can't seem to identify ML players past the 2nd or 3rd round.
Necessary caveat: There's no way to know if any other high-level prospect was available at all for Cole. Moran may have been the best offer, and it may not be because NH is bad at negotiating. Teams are holding these players even more dear than before.
This is not an NH problem in isolation, it's an organizational philosophy failure.
It's lack of budget, and keeping it low being the #1 priority. On it's face, as far as it goes, this IS a good deal by their standards. We got back a 20+ years of ML BB player control for 2 years of ML player control. Three of the players are likely to contribute on the ML team for several seasons together, and we got a flyer on a former good prospect.
It's not, by itself a WINNING strategy though. Only Moran is likely to be better then a decent $10mil FA/scrapheap pickup or, and that's journeyman-level pay these days. You don't trade away something in demand for a handful of average. Average can be had everywhere and cheap, obviously. You have to leverage valuable pieces into another, or more valuable pieces, or you have a roster of average.
They could salvage this move with a trade that takes on salary, or with a REAL IMPACT FA signing, using these players to support the better player(s). It's an odd off-season, as has been remarked here often. There are players out there that we could probably bring in, short-term anyway, and they'd be better-than average. But they won't do this, and further, if they did, it wouldn't negate their decision to bring in AVERAGE over finding another high-performing player or two. Such players are obviously hard to come by, so you shouldn't pass up a chance to get one, even if you miss and he flames out, and/or you miss out on 20+ years of ML control of average players.
Dont' trade valuable pieces for average, not when you refuse to go out and pay for impact players, and your scouting staff can't seem to identify ML players past the 2nd or 3rd round.
Necessary caveat: There's no way to know if any other high-level prospect was available at all for Cole. Moran may have been the best offer, and it may not be because NH is bad at negotiating. Teams are holding these players even more dear than before.
Cole dealt to Astros
37362D3C2A6A6D590 wrote: Here is what our fabulous GM had to say about the deal:
Pirates GM Neal Huntington describes the trade as[highlight] “the balance of immediate and moderate and longer-term.” (h[/highlight]at tip to Liz Bloom of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette). “We felt this was the right move to get these players that are major-league ready with 15 years contribution combined,” Huntington adds.
So there you have it folks. Getting cheap controllable "MLB" ready talent was the goal. Even if they are mediocre at best. We got what we wanted. I would've rather seen a young exciting top prospect coming back. Someone with a much higher ceiling and a chance to be a star. We didn't get that. I have no idea why people wanted Moran? He screams mediocrity.
I guess I just totally disagree with this highlighted statement and it sums it up in a nutshell as to why I think NH is not the right GM for this team.
I can see balancing short and long term overall but NH seems to want to do it in each deal. While he may fizzle,it would have been a plus to get someone like Oneil Cruz (acquired from Ddogers last summer for Watson) in this deal.
If the goal is to field a team of Jordy Mercer's then NH is your gm to do it.
Pirates GM Neal Huntington describes the trade as[highlight] “the balance of immediate and moderate and longer-term.” (h[/highlight]at tip to Liz Bloom of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette). “We felt this was the right move to get these players that are major-league ready with 15 years contribution combined,” Huntington adds.
So there you have it folks. Getting cheap controllable "MLB" ready talent was the goal. Even if they are mediocre at best. We got what we wanted. I would've rather seen a young exciting top prospect coming back. Someone with a much higher ceiling and a chance to be a star. We didn't get that. I have no idea why people wanted Moran? He screams mediocrity.
I guess I just totally disagree with this highlighted statement and it sums it up in a nutshell as to why I think NH is not the right GM for this team.
I can see balancing short and long term overall but NH seems to want to do it in each deal. While he may fizzle,it would have been a plus to get someone like Oneil Cruz (acquired from Ddogers last summer for Watson) in this deal.
If the goal is to field a team of Jordy Mercer's then NH is your gm to do it.
Cole dealt to Astros
0A0F080E060C150801121419600 wrote: I am as underwhelmed by this deal as anyone, but I am not ready to lynch NH over it- at least not by himself. He has to do what he is told. If he was flat out told to get multiple MLB ready guys for Cole then his hands were a bit tied.
If he was told this then he really isn't the gm and he should have had enough integrity to not sign a 4 year extension. I don't see that he should get any benefit of the doubt on this deal.
If he was told this then he really isn't the gm and he should have had enough integrity to not sign a 4 year extension. I don't see that he should get any benefit of the doubt on this deal.
Cole dealt to Astros
5D565E5257564D080E794058515656175A56390 wrote: It sounds like the Pirates tried to extend Cole and he was not that entertaining to the idea.
Why would he entertain the notion to resign here under the direction of this organization? Cutch won't either.
Why would he entertain the notion to resign here under the direction of this organization? Cutch won't either.
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Wrathchild
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Cole dealt to Astros
I think Musgrove is the centerpiece and I don’t see how can be viewed as a pitch to contact scrub. He had an 8.1 K/9 last year and a 3.5 K/BB ratio. His FIP and peripherals indicate he has a chance to be really good.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Cole dealt to Astros
6C485C54513D0 wrote: It sounds like the Pirates tried to extend Cole and he was not that entertaining to the idea.
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Cole dealt to Astros
4151506771717D120 wrote: It sounds like the Pirates tried to extend Cole and he was not that entertaining to the idea.
Why would he entertain the notion to resign here under the direction of this organization? Cutch won't either.
Again, teams sign players all the time. Even the bad teams. Why did Bruce sign with the Mets and Santana sign with the Phillies?
Why would he entertain the notion to resign here under the direction of this organization? Cutch won't either.
Again, teams sign players all the time. Even the bad teams. Why did Bruce sign with the Mets and Santana sign with the Phillies?
Cole dealt to Astros
644152475B505B5A5F57330 wrote: I think Musgrove is the centerpiece and I don’t see how can be viewed as a pitch to contact scrub. He had an 8.1 K/9 last year and a 3.5 K/BB ratio. His FIP and peripherals indicate he has a chance to be really good.
5.37 ERA 7.6 K/9 136 innings as a starter. As a starter, he's a control guy that won't K many, not as pronounced as Nova (who is?) but right there with Trevor Williams.
The pen work he's done, which has been very strong, is buoying his overall numbers due to the small sample size.
5.37 ERA 7.6 K/9 136 innings as a starter. As a starter, he's a control guy that won't K many, not as pronounced as Nova (who is?) but right there with Trevor Williams.
The pen work he's done, which has been very strong, is buoying his overall numbers due to the small sample size.
Cole dealt to Astros
5259515D5859420701764F575E5959185559360 wrote: It sounds like the Pirates tried to extend Cole and he was not that entertaining to the idea.
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
Is Colin Moran going to be an effective major league 3rd baseman? Is Musgrove going to be an effective starter ( definitely good in the pen) ? the other two are throw ins.
What makes you suspect this? Why is it not just as likely that the Pirates felt he was on the decline, and not worth a longer term deal? With the aggregate low ceiling return that they got for Cole from the Astros I think its reasonable to conclude the Pirate$ didn't think he was all that valuable a commodity. Either that or NH is not very good at negotiations and talent evaluation, and he got hosed on the deal.
Huntington: "The reality that in Gerrit’s situation, while he’s going to be a very effective major league pitcher for the next two years, it was only going to be two more years in Pittsburgh before he tested free agency."
Is Colin Moran going to be an effective major league 3rd baseman? Is Musgrove going to be an effective starter ( definitely good in the pen) ? the other two are throw ins.