Aren't the Pirates still in line to get more than double their current TV deal? Maybe even triple? They just got a billion dollar value placed on them. Their $25 million (proclaimed) TV deal was one of the lowest in all of baseball.
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5E737E6F68796E2E2D1C0 wrote: That is really concerning. I think attendance was down something like eighteen percent. Off hand, I would expect NH's budget next year to be even tighter than this year.
I actually find the numbers to be encouraging. If Nutting is a savvy business owner he may realize that it's in his own best interest to put more capital into the team to reverse the trend of fan disinterest reflected in attendance and tv ratings. I would be rather discouraged if the on-field product failures of the last two seasons weren't accompanied by a decline as there would be no impetus for Nutting to change anything about how he's running the franchise. At least now there's a chance (albeit a small one) that he'll realize his business model is broken and requires fixing.
That seems logical. But I can't believe Nutting is not business savvy enough to anticipate fallen ratings and attendance in response to letting the team deteriorate while saving money on payroll. So my fear is that he has already factored all of this and determined he profits more (or at least as much with less risk) with a cheap roster and losing team as compared to a more expensive, winning team and better ratings and attendance. He could increase spending for a better team and anticipate better attendance and a better TV deal. But there's a risk involved that the team might not be as successful as hoped and that the increased spending won't turn into profit. If nothing else, Nutting is a smart businessman. If the average, casual fan knew attendance and ratings would drop due to poor performance caused by lack of spending, surely Nutting expected this result. I just can't see this coming as a surprise and causing him to change his strategy.
If the 2013-15 team run didn't get Nutting excited about winning and how it is worth a little risk then nothing will. It would be great if he or somebody in his family was an avid fan.
I actually find the numbers to be encouraging. If Nutting is a savvy business owner he may realize that it's in his own best interest to put more capital into the team to reverse the trend of fan disinterest reflected in attendance and tv ratings. I would be rather discouraged if the on-field product failures of the last two seasons weren't accompanied by a decline as there would be no impetus for Nutting to change anything about how he's running the franchise. At least now there's a chance (albeit a small one) that he'll realize his business model is broken and requires fixing.
That seems logical. But I can't believe Nutting is not business savvy enough to anticipate fallen ratings and attendance in response to letting the team deteriorate while saving money on payroll. So my fear is that he has already factored all of this and determined he profits more (or at least as much with less risk) with a cheap roster and losing team as compared to a more expensive, winning team and better ratings and attendance. He could increase spending for a better team and anticipate better attendance and a better TV deal. But there's a risk involved that the team might not be as successful as hoped and that the increased spending won't turn into profit. If nothing else, Nutting is a smart businessman. If the average, casual fan knew attendance and ratings would drop due to poor performance caused by lack of spending, surely Nutting expected this result. I just can't see this coming as a surprise and causing him to change his strategy.
If the 2013-15 team run didn't get Nutting excited about winning and how it is worth a little risk then nothing will. It would be great if he or somebody in his family was an avid fan.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
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I simply don't understand the attitude on this board, that spending more money on players equals a better team. I for one don't agree with that attitude. I wish this team would focus on getting better baseball people in the organization. Unfortunately Nutting doesn't have the baseball intellect to know how to bring in better baseball decision makers. By leaving Coonelly, Huntington and Hurdle in place shows he believes the garbage they are feeding Pirates fans. Until he makes some changes with some of these three we have very little chance of turning this team around. They have been in place 10 years with very little to show for it. It's past time to re-evaluate these executives and demand better results. Spending money on overpriced over the hill free agents is just stupid. The decision making in our management borders on malfeasance. Hurdle decisions are the ones we see the most and they are just awful. The guy has a below .500 winning average over many many years. Giving these guys higher payrolls to squander isn't the answer.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
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They turned around 15 years of losing. Why can't they turn around two years of losing?
I still have no idea what Coonelly does as President.
I still have no idea what Coonelly does as President.
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Bobster21
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40585A5D5D4A5B5C414056330 wrote: I simply don't understand the attitude on this board, that spending more money on players equals a better team. I for one don't agree with that attitude. I wish this team would focus on getting better baseball people in the organization. Unfortunately Nutting doesn't have the baseball intellect to know how to bring in better baseball decision makers. By leaving Coonelly, Huntington and Hurdle in place shows he believes the garbage they are feeding Pirates fans. Until he makes some changes with some of these three we have very little chance of turning this team around. They have been in place 10 years with very little to show for it. It's past time to re-evaluate these executives and demand better results. Spending money on overpriced over the hill free agents is just stupid. The decision making in our management borders on malfeasance. Hurdle decisions are the ones we see the most and they are just awful. The guy has a below .500 winning average over many many years. Giving these guys higher payrolls to squander isn't the answer.
Nobody wants overpriced over the hill FAs. But the decisionmaking of the FO reflects the owner's unwillingness to spend even an average amount. That's why we end up with the players we have. Good players have to be let go before they receive market value contracts and get replaced by minimum priced rookies or cheap FAs no one else wanted. There's no way to separate the team's minimalist finances from the personnel decisions.
Nobody wants overpriced over the hill FAs. But the decisionmaking of the FO reflects the owner's unwillingness to spend even an average amount. That's why we end up with the players we have. Good players have to be let go before they receive market value contracts and get replaced by minimum priced rookies or cheap FAs no one else wanted. There's no way to separate the team's minimalist finances from the personnel decisions.
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
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/me 6D404D5C5B4A5D1D1E2F0 wrote: I simply don't understand the attitude on this board, that spending more money on players equals a better team. I for one don't agree with that attitude. I wish this team would focus on getting better baseball people in the organization. Unfortunately Nutting doesn't have the baseball intellect to know how to bring in better baseball decision makers. By leaving Coonelly, Huntington and Hurdle in place shows he believes the garbage they are feeding Pirates fans. Until he makes some changes with some of these three we have very little chance of turning this team around. They have been in place 10 years with very little to show for it. It's past time to re-evaluate these executives and demand better results. Spending money on overpriced over the hill free agents is just stupid. The decision making in our management borders on malfeasance. Hurdle decisions are the ones we see the most and they are just awful. The guy has a below .500 winning average over many many years. Giving these guys higher payrolls to squander isn't the answer.
Nobody wants overpriced over the hill FAs. But the decisionmaking of the FO reflects the owner's unwillingness to spend even an average amount. That's why we end up with the players we have. Good players have to be let go before they receive market value contracts and get replaced by minimum priced rookies or cheap FAs no one else wanted. There's no way to separate the team's minimalist finances from the personnel decisions.
I don't know any FA that aren't overpriced. What good players have we lost recently, Tony Watson, Juan Nicasio, I wouldn't have Watson for any price and I wouldn't want Nicasio for what he wants. We've overpaid several like Liriano, Palonco, and it appears Cutch the last couple of years. I'd like to know what FA you would want to go get that would guarantee us a playoff spot next year. Pitchers are a crap shoot and the position usually most teams overpay.
I'd love to upgrade shortstop, Cozart would be nice, and 3rd base. I would like a Cain over Cutch in centerfield. Not sure there are any sure things in pitching, I believe our young pitching staff has great potential, both in the minors and major league.
I really believe Hurdle is a awful manager and no matter what we give him he'll mess it up.
So my point is, 1st get rid of Hurdle and hire a young manager with a good track record in minors who has a great baseball background. Try and upgrade SS, 3rd, and Center field, but please don't trade our good young talent for some over the hill FA. I have little confidence in NH making any good trades for the Pirates, he seems to be a very weak GM.
Nobody wants overpriced over the hill FAs. But the decisionmaking of the FO reflects the owner's unwillingness to spend even an average amount. That's why we end up with the players we have. Good players have to be let go before they receive market value contracts and get replaced by minimum priced rookies or cheap FAs no one else wanted. There's no way to separate the team's minimalist finances from the personnel decisions.
I don't know any FA that aren't overpriced. What good players have we lost recently, Tony Watson, Juan Nicasio, I wouldn't have Watson for any price and I wouldn't want Nicasio for what he wants. We've overpaid several like Liriano, Palonco, and it appears Cutch the last couple of years. I'd like to know what FA you would want to go get that would guarantee us a playoff spot next year. Pitchers are a crap shoot and the position usually most teams overpay.
I'd love to upgrade shortstop, Cozart would be nice, and 3rd base. I would like a Cain over Cutch in centerfield. Not sure there are any sure things in pitching, I believe our young pitching staff has great potential, both in the minors and major league.
I really believe Hurdle is a awful manager and no matter what we give him he'll mess it up.
So my point is, 1st get rid of Hurdle and hire a young manager with a good track record in minors who has a great baseball background. Try and upgrade SS, 3rd, and Center field, but please don't trade our good young talent for some over the hill FA. I have little confidence in NH making any good trades for the Pirates, he seems to be a very weak GM.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
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Were you ok with Huntington and Hurdle from 2013-2015?
If so, what changed? If not, why?
If so, what changed? If not, why?
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skinnyhorse
- Posts: 926
- Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:19 am
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363D35393C3D266365122B333A3D3D7C313D520 wrote: Were you ok with Huntington and Hurdle from 2013-2015?
If so, what changed? If not, why?
I was happy with the results but in hindsight the success was due to of all people Dave Littlefield's drafting of Cutch. Cutch was a freak those years, and unfortunately NH hasn't supplemented our lineup with good draft choices and trades instead he's done the opposite. He's been in place 10 years and should by now have found a couple of good pieces, by luck, if nothing else kinda like DL did. It's hard to know all the things a GM do but after 10 years you should be able to judge them by their body of work and it's obvious we are going in the wrong direction. For him to be happy with CH (Pirates .488 losing record) just shows, he isn't a good GM. Hurdle has been here 7 years and only 2 years of those above .500 with the last 2 years clearly heading in the wrong directions. I couldn't keep my job if I failed more than half the time.
If so, what changed? If not, why?
I was happy with the results but in hindsight the success was due to of all people Dave Littlefield's drafting of Cutch. Cutch was a freak those years, and unfortunately NH hasn't supplemented our lineup with good draft choices and trades instead he's done the opposite. He's been in place 10 years and should by now have found a couple of good pieces, by luck, if nothing else kinda like DL did. It's hard to know all the things a GM do but after 10 years you should be able to judge them by their body of work and it's obvious we are going in the wrong direction. For him to be happy with CH (Pirates .488 losing record) just shows, he isn't a good GM. Hurdle has been here 7 years and only 2 years of those above .500 with the last 2 years clearly heading in the wrong directions. I couldn't keep my job if I failed more than half the time.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
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Ok, at least you have a reason. Not sure I agree. I do give Huntington the benefit of the doubt based on how bad the system was when he took over. I did expect more time to make the team into a winner. I understand if others don't think that way.
Hurdle does have a winning record as the Pirates' manager. In seven years he has had three winning seasons and an overall winning percentage of .515*. (*Baseball Reference)
Very bad season endings in 2011 and 2012. I am not sure what happened those years, but I kind of chalk those seasons up as rebuilding years. Yes, the last two years have been bad. Hurdle should be better, but watching the playoffs and all these moves, every manager seems to do some bad strategies/moves. Even the "best" ones.
I do think Huntington did a very good job by surrounding McCutchen with talent. One player in baseball can't do it all.
Huntington needs to draft better. That's his biggest issue in my opinion. Only a few impact (starters, successful) players through the draft. This needs to improve. But he has done it before. He was given a chance to get back to being a contender, so we will see.
Hurdle does have a winning record as the Pirates' manager. In seven years he has had three winning seasons and an overall winning percentage of .515*. (*Baseball Reference)
Very bad season endings in 2011 and 2012. I am not sure what happened those years, but I kind of chalk those seasons up as rebuilding years. Yes, the last two years have been bad. Hurdle should be better, but watching the playoffs and all these moves, every manager seems to do some bad strategies/moves. Even the "best" ones.
I do think Huntington did a very good job by surrounding McCutchen with talent. One player in baseball can't do it all.
Huntington needs to draft better. That's his biggest issue in my opinion. Only a few impact (starters, successful) players through the draft. This needs to improve. But he has done it before. He was given a chance to get back to being a contender, so we will see.
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4B40484441405B1E186F564E474040014C402F0 wrote: Ok, at least you have a reason. Not sure I agree. I do give Huntington the benefit of the doubt based on how bad the system was when he took over. I did expect more time to make the team into a winner. I understand if others don't think that way.
Hurdle does have a winning record as the Pirates' manager. In seven years he has had three winning seasons and an overall winning percentage of .515*. (*Baseball Reference)
Very bad season endings in 2011 and 2012. I am not sure what happened those years, but I kind of chalk those seasons up as rebuilding years. Yes, the last two years have been bad. Hurdle should be better, but watching the playoffs and all these moves, every manager seems to do some bad strategies/moves. Even the "best" ones.
I do think Huntington did a very good job by surrounding McCutchen with talent. One player in baseball can't do it all.
Huntington needs to draft better. That's his biggest issue in my opinion. Only a few impact (starters, successful) players through the draft. This needs to improve. But he has done it before. He was given a chance to get back to being a contender, so we will see.
I add that he has failed by his own goals. Remember, he is the one that said he wanted to build a team that is a contender for championships year in and year out. That was supposedly one reason the rebuild was taking so long. He wasn't going for a quick fix.
He doesn't believe in windows that is why he wants the year in and year out contender. Well his plan got the team up to contender in 7 years but it turned out the window shut after 3 years.
Hurdle does have a winning record as the Pirates' manager. In seven years he has had three winning seasons and an overall winning percentage of .515*. (*Baseball Reference)
Very bad season endings in 2011 and 2012. I am not sure what happened those years, but I kind of chalk those seasons up as rebuilding years. Yes, the last two years have been bad. Hurdle should be better, but watching the playoffs and all these moves, every manager seems to do some bad strategies/moves. Even the "best" ones.
I do think Huntington did a very good job by surrounding McCutchen with talent. One player in baseball can't do it all.
Huntington needs to draft better. That's his biggest issue in my opinion. Only a few impact (starters, successful) players through the draft. This needs to improve. But he has done it before. He was given a chance to get back to being a contender, so we will see.
I add that he has failed by his own goals. Remember, he is the one that said he wanted to build a team that is a contender for championships year in and year out. That was supposedly one reason the rebuild was taking so long. He wasn't going for a quick fix.
He doesn't believe in windows that is why he wants the year in and year out contender. Well his plan got the team up to contender in 7 years but it turned out the window shut after 3 years.