4F636B6C6740776171020 wrote: I think the price the team paid in prospects is a bit high, but if Archer produces for the Pirates, regardless of what Meadows, Baz and Glasnow do for the Rays, it will be a trade that a GM and the fans should look back on and feel good.
The main thing that the Pirates need to concern themselves with is Archer being a productive pitcher this year and in future years. And, as one of the other posters noted, many fans would like feel even better if we considered the Dickerson - Hudson trade from earlier this year as part of the same transaction.
This is exactly what people can't seem to comprehend. Pittsburgh made an uncharacteristic move by actually trading prospects for a proven commodity and now its too high? Pittsburgh has set up its starting rotation for the next three years with this deal. People make it sound like Glasnow and this kid will be better than Archer. I serious doubt it. He is far away from the pros to begin with. No problem with this. They are trying to be competitive with this deal. Continuing to rely on prospects to produce isn't trying.
Baz sent to Rays as PTBNL
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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steve49
Baz sent to Rays as PTBNL
5E4E4F786E6E620D0 wrote: I think the price the team paid in prospects is a bit high, but if Archer produces for the Pirates, regardless of what Meadows, Baz and Glasnow do for the Rays, it will be a trade that a GM and the fans should look back on and feel good.
The main thing that the Pirates need to concern themselves with is Archer being a productive pitcher this year and in future years. And, as one of the other posters noted, many fans would like feel even better if we considered the Dickerson - Hudson trade from earlier this year as part of the same transaction.
This is exactly what people can't seem to comprehend. Pittsburgh made an uncharacteristic move by actually trading prospects for a proven commodity and now its too high? Pittsburgh has set up its starting rotation for the next three years with this deal. People make it sound like Glasnow and this kid will be better than Archer. I serious doubt it. He is far away from the pros to begin with. No problem with this. They are trying to be competitive with this deal. Continuing to rely on prospects to produce isn't trying.
I'm willing to lay some money that Glasnow's stats in 2019 will be close to or better than Archer's. You willing to send like 1K to a moderator ? I'll take 8-5 , so you lay 1600 to win 1000 or 800 to win 500.
The main thing that the Pirates need to concern themselves with is Archer being a productive pitcher this year and in future years. And, as one of the other posters noted, many fans would like feel even better if we considered the Dickerson - Hudson trade from earlier this year as part of the same transaction.
This is exactly what people can't seem to comprehend. Pittsburgh made an uncharacteristic move by actually trading prospects for a proven commodity and now its too high? Pittsburgh has set up its starting rotation for the next three years with this deal. People make it sound like Glasnow and this kid will be better than Archer. I serious doubt it. He is far away from the pros to begin with. No problem with this. They are trying to be competitive with this deal. Continuing to rely on prospects to produce isn't trying.
I'm willing to lay some money that Glasnow's stats in 2019 will be close to or better than Archer's. You willing to send like 1K to a moderator ? I'll take 8-5 , so you lay 1600 to win 1000 or 800 to win 500.
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ChitownBucco
- Posts: 492
- Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:10 pm
Baz sent to Rays as PTBNL
For me, the willingness to make an effort to push for wild card/playoff spot this year from the FO was a pretty big deal.
I thought and think even more, that the possibility of things going right and jumping all those teams would be very difficult and a lot of things would have to go very right beyond Archer coming in and pitching very good.
I think the more important thing for me, is pushing the window back open for COMPETING in 2019. I think this move and another couple moves or emerging prospects make big contributions at the MLB level next year makes the bucs LEGIT contenders and not just fringe level wild card, but go out and win the division kind of guys.
IF
that rotation turns the corner like they have the potential to do.
Archer is a big plus in that... He could be the Burnett, Liriano, or Volquez type guy to come in here and be a 1a or 1b kind of guy.
I thought and think even more, that the possibility of things going right and jumping all those teams would be very difficult and a lot of things would have to go very right beyond Archer coming in and pitching very good.
I think the more important thing for me, is pushing the window back open for COMPETING in 2019. I think this move and another couple moves or emerging prospects make big contributions at the MLB level next year makes the bucs LEGIT contenders and not just fringe level wild card, but go out and win the division kind of guys.
IF
that rotation turns the corner like they have the potential to do.
Archer is a big plus in that... He could be the Burnett, Liriano, or Volquez type guy to come in here and be a 1a or 1b kind of guy.
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steve49
Baz sent to Rays as PTBNL
I just fail to see how adding a guy that generally goes about 6 innings , has posted a + 4 ERA for 3 consecutive years is going to make such a difference to a very average rotation. I really think you guys are dreamers .
We were fleeced.
We were fleeced.
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ChitownBucco
- Posts: 492
- Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:10 pm
Baz sent to Rays as PTBNL
the potential is there
and even at an ERA of 4 something.
but with a career ERA of 3.70 I'd say there are only 15-20 or so active pitchers with 5+ years of pitching out there. maybe less.
and they prob all get paid way more.
his contract is actually a bargain compared to what you'd get on the free agent market.
He's younger and better performing than AJ Burnett and Francisco Liriano when they came here, correct?
Why can't he be a top 5 Cy Young guy in 2019?
and even at an ERA of 4 something.
but with a career ERA of 3.70 I'd say there are only 15-20 or so active pitchers with 5+ years of pitching out there. maybe less.
and they prob all get paid way more.
his contract is actually a bargain compared to what you'd get on the free agent market.
He's younger and better performing than AJ Burnett and Francisco Liriano when they came here, correct?
Why can't he be a top 5 Cy Young guy in 2019?
Baz sent to Rays as PTBNL
6562736073222F160 wrote: I just fail to see how adding a guy that generally goes about 6 innings , has posted a + 4 ERA for 3 consecutive years is going to make such a difference to a very average rotation. I really think you guys are dreamers .
We were fleeced.
if the Pirates were fleeced on this deal because Archer isn't any good then it shows their player evaluation skills are awful and management needs to be replaced. I think Archer is going to prove to be a decent pitcher. Maybe not a number one shutdown starter like Max Schwerzer or Madison B. but at the next level. I was disappointed in his last start because I thought he needed to go 7 innings. To find out he was ill and still took to the mound is a good sign. Lets give him a chance to perform before saying this is a bad deal.
We were fleeced.
if the Pirates were fleeced on this deal because Archer isn't any good then it shows their player evaluation skills are awful and management needs to be replaced. I think Archer is going to prove to be a decent pitcher. Maybe not a number one shutdown starter like Max Schwerzer or Madison B. but at the next level. I was disappointed in his last start because I thought he needed to go 7 innings. To find out he was ill and still took to the mound is a good sign. Lets give him a chance to perform before saying this is a bad deal.
Baz sent to Rays as PTBNL
I consider this trade archer and Dickerson for the three young guys as Dickerson acquisition made the second trade possible.
Baz sent to Rays as PTBNL
5651405340111C250 wrote: I just fail to see how adding a guy that generally goes about 6 innings , has posted a + 4 ERA for 3 consecutive years is going to make such a difference to a very average rotation. I really think you guys are dreamers .
We were fleeced.
We weren't fleeced. Baz is a hype machine with stuff so unbelievably good that he struggles to keep his WHIP under 1.5 in rookie ball. He should be dominating that level on his stuff alone if it's real, and he's not.
Hes so far away from being a good ML starter, why does it even matter? You've got 5 drafts and 5 years worth of trade opportunities before he will ever sniff starting success at the ML level, if it even happens.
Meadows has a CF bat, with corner OF secondary tools and a history of lower body injuries. His ceiling gets lower every passing year but his floor is 4th OF so there's value for sure there.
Glasnow is the question. Who knows.
There's little chance that Baz changes much of anything except for prospect worshipers attached to a name and a scouting report. (And that includes the MLB pundits themselves who hate to admit when they're wrong, as they very often are) He's a lottery ticket that may or may not be cashable 5-7 years from now.
So much for the 2024 rotation. Mortgaging the future!
We were fleeced.
We weren't fleeced. Baz is a hype machine with stuff so unbelievably good that he struggles to keep his WHIP under 1.5 in rookie ball. He should be dominating that level on his stuff alone if it's real, and he's not.
Hes so far away from being a good ML starter, why does it even matter? You've got 5 drafts and 5 years worth of trade opportunities before he will ever sniff starting success at the ML level, if it even happens.
Meadows has a CF bat, with corner OF secondary tools and a history of lower body injuries. His ceiling gets lower every passing year but his floor is 4th OF so there's value for sure there.
Glasnow is the question. Who knows.
There's little chance that Baz changes much of anything except for prospect worshipers attached to a name and a scouting report. (And that includes the MLB pundits themselves who hate to admit when they're wrong, as they very often are) He's a lottery ticket that may or may not be cashable 5-7 years from now.
So much for the 2024 rotation. Mortgaging the future!
Baz sent to Rays as PTBNL
6C6B7A697A2B261F0 wrote: I just fail to see how adding a guy that generally goes about 6 innings , has posted a + 4 ERA for 3 consecutive years is going to make such a difference to a very average rotation. I really think you guys are dreamers .
We were fleeced.
Do you even look at the peripheral stats? His FIP was 3.62 which is pretty good considering he pitched in the A.L. East. As far as Glasnow, it wasn't happening here. He needed the change of scenery. It wasn't just mental either, he couldn't consistently repeat his delivery. 12 innings is such a SSS. We were not fleeced in any way.
We were fleeced.
Do you even look at the peripheral stats? His FIP was 3.62 which is pretty good considering he pitched in the A.L. East. As far as Glasnow, it wasn't happening here. He needed the change of scenery. It wasn't just mental either, he couldn't consistently repeat his delivery. 12 innings is such a SSS. We were not fleeced in any way.
Baz sent to Rays as PTBNL
6644574A494C4B44675046464A250 wrote: And my big-picture concern:
We have just lost: Glasnow, Hearn and Baz.
3 high-ceiling starting pitching prospects.
Granted, there are ZERO guarantees for any of them, but they are all high-ceiling arms.
Our starting pitching pipeline just got drained big-time.
And one of them was lefty ... which we are desperate for.
Exactly! I cannot believe that so many of us are okay with giving up three of the four TOR pitching prospects that we have when finding a true TOR guy is a probabilities game. More chances equal more chances of getting one. The fact that the development/coaching may prevent any of them from reaching their potential is not relevant. One or more of them could also reach that potential.
The fact that we have to pin the success of this trade on the hope that Archer can rediscover his form and results from three or more years ago means that we really traded for a mid-rotation starter who we hope can be a TOR guy. So, you then pay for a mid-rotation starter because that's what his results tell us he is. Did Houston pay us for an ace in the Cole trade - 2015 Cole? Or did they pay for a guy who was performing like a 2/3 - 2017 Cole?
If we had gotten an ace, I would be fine with this deal. But we traded two potential aces and a potential all-star OFer for one potential ace. Big overpay!
We have just lost: Glasnow, Hearn and Baz.
3 high-ceiling starting pitching prospects.
Granted, there are ZERO guarantees for any of them, but they are all high-ceiling arms.
Our starting pitching pipeline just got drained big-time.
And one of them was lefty ... which we are desperate for.
Exactly! I cannot believe that so many of us are okay with giving up three of the four TOR pitching prospects that we have when finding a true TOR guy is a probabilities game. More chances equal more chances of getting one. The fact that the development/coaching may prevent any of them from reaching their potential is not relevant. One or more of them could also reach that potential.
The fact that we have to pin the success of this trade on the hope that Archer can rediscover his form and results from three or more years ago means that we really traded for a mid-rotation starter who we hope can be a TOR guy. So, you then pay for a mid-rotation starter because that's what his results tell us he is. Did Houston pay us for an ace in the Cole trade - 2015 Cole? Or did they pay for a guy who was performing like a 2/3 - 2017 Cole?
If we had gotten an ace, I would be fine with this deal. But we traded two potential aces and a potential all-star OFer for one potential ace. Big overpay!