7D505D4C4B5A4D0D0E3F0 wrote: I was really hoping to see an end to moves like these. I wanted to see some movement forward with quality trades, FA pickups, not dumpster dives. You pick this guy up and let Park go? Hard to see him not clearing waivers.
What do I know. I've been in GMBC's corner every step of the way. This offseason, he's starting to make me wonder. This is all two years ago.
I believe BC is just taking a flier on Diaz. If he doesn't impress in ST, he'll be waived and if he clears waivers, outrighted to AAA. What is particularly odd is that BC just obtained Choi and now adds another LH hitting 1Bman with no options. But I guess Choi could DH if Diaz works out.
But both of those moves suggest to me that BC has finally accepted that any significant payroll increase is out of the question and he must look to these types of players rather than acquiring established, productive players. When first hired, he repeated the team mantra of "We'll spend when the time is right." (Queue the laugh track.) I think he actually believed that and was probably lied to by Nutting in the hiring process. But recent comments from BC have tampered down any expectations that that could actually happen. The fact that BC oversees a team that is trying to improve each year and has an acute need at 1B and has turned to players like Choi and Diaz to fill that need suggests to me that he has given up on the idea of acquiring quality players and is resigned to aiming low and hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. BC is probably regretting signing on with Nutting.
Where I disagree is thinking that Ben was misled by Nutting.. As connected in the industry as he is, there is no way he could/should have allowed any ambiguity. If he didn't require certain agreements be put in writing in his contract, that's on him. I hold the opinion that Cherington knew exactly all that he was getting himself into.
One former MLB GM said on air that no candidate should accept the Pirates job without an agreed-upon minimum payroll written into his contract. That's how well-known Nutting's track record is. If Cherington took Nutting only at his word, then it causes me even more concern about his judgement.
Pirates Claim L. Díaz
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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Bobster21
Pirates Claim L. Díaz
1B3D3C2B3D2D5E0 wrote: I was really hoping to see an end to moves like these. I wanted to see some movement forward with quality trades, FA pickups, not dumpster dives. You pick this guy up and let Park go? Hard to see him not clearing waivers.
What do I know. I've been in GMBC's corner every step of the way. This offseason, he's starting to make me wonder. This is all two years ago.
I believe BC is just taking a flier on Diaz. If he doesn't impress in ST, he'll be waived and if he clears waivers, outrighted to AAA. What is particularly odd is that BC just obtained Choi and now adds another LH hitting 1Bman with no options. But I guess Choi could DH if Diaz works out.
But both of those moves suggest to me that BC has finally accepted that any significant payroll increase is out of the question and he must look to these types of players rather than acquiring established, productive players. When first hired, he repeated the team mantra of "We'll spend when the time is right." (Queue the laugh track.) I think he actually believed that and was probably lied to by Nutting in the hiring process. But recent comments from BC have tampered down any expectations that that could actually happen. The fact that BC oversees a team that is trying to improve each year and has an acute need at 1B and has turned to players like Choi and Diaz to fill that need suggests to me that he has given up on the idea of acquiring quality players and is resigned to aiming low and hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. BC is probably regretting signing on with Nutting.
I think you are right about payroll. Newman had to be dealt or non-tendered in order to cover money being made by Choi. To me, it looks like the 2023 payroll isn't going to be much different than 2022 payroll.
Here's a couple comments from BC about the 2023 payroll:
“I don’t believe focusing on payroll is the right thing to focus on in a town like Pittsburgh,” Cherington said. “In a place where a winning team isn’t going to be built like it is in other places. It’s not the thing we think about.”
“It’s not what we focus on. It’s up to us to execute a strategy, a team-building process that builds a winning team in a way that you have to do it in a place like Pittsburgh. That’s being done in other places, we see models of that right now in the playoffs.”
https://www.audacy.com/937thefan/sports ... se-payroll
“I would bet on it being higher than it was in 2022 but don’t know precisely,” Cherington said of the Pirates’ payroll. “Whatever the number ends up being, it’s sort of secondary importance to all the other stuff that we’re focused on this offseason ... which is making the team better, whether that’s through internal improvement or finding the right acquisitions or finding the right fits in free agency or trade.”
https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pir ... 2211190064
BC should be a politician. He tells us we shouldn't focus on payroll because all that matters is that the team gets better. Sure, that's a nice spin on the problem. But it is a problem. Because improvement of the team relies upon how well prospects develop into major leaguers and whatever production--if any--they can get from 2nd and 3rd tier veterans taken off the inexpensive MLB scrap heap. Improvement is never assisted by the addition of productive veterans unless they are reclamation projects who turn out to be surprisingly effective.
You don't improve a team simply by throwing money at it. So a higher payroll doesn't guarantee improvement. But OTOH, refusing to keep or acquire productive players in order to keep the payroll extremely low is a guarantee for not improving.
What do I know. I've been in GMBC's corner every step of the way. This offseason, he's starting to make me wonder. This is all two years ago.
I believe BC is just taking a flier on Diaz. If he doesn't impress in ST, he'll be waived and if he clears waivers, outrighted to AAA. What is particularly odd is that BC just obtained Choi and now adds another LH hitting 1Bman with no options. But I guess Choi could DH if Diaz works out.
But both of those moves suggest to me that BC has finally accepted that any significant payroll increase is out of the question and he must look to these types of players rather than acquiring established, productive players. When first hired, he repeated the team mantra of "We'll spend when the time is right." (Queue the laugh track.) I think he actually believed that and was probably lied to by Nutting in the hiring process. But recent comments from BC have tampered down any expectations that that could actually happen. The fact that BC oversees a team that is trying to improve each year and has an acute need at 1B and has turned to players like Choi and Diaz to fill that need suggests to me that he has given up on the idea of acquiring quality players and is resigned to aiming low and hoping to catch lightning in a bottle. BC is probably regretting signing on with Nutting.
I think you are right about payroll. Newman had to be dealt or non-tendered in order to cover money being made by Choi. To me, it looks like the 2023 payroll isn't going to be much different than 2022 payroll.
Here's a couple comments from BC about the 2023 payroll:
“I don’t believe focusing on payroll is the right thing to focus on in a town like Pittsburgh,” Cherington said. “In a place where a winning team isn’t going to be built like it is in other places. It’s not the thing we think about.”
“It’s not what we focus on. It’s up to us to execute a strategy, a team-building process that builds a winning team in a way that you have to do it in a place like Pittsburgh. That’s being done in other places, we see models of that right now in the playoffs.”
https://www.audacy.com/937thefan/sports ... se-payroll
“I would bet on it being higher than it was in 2022 but don’t know precisely,” Cherington said of the Pirates’ payroll. “Whatever the number ends up being, it’s sort of secondary importance to all the other stuff that we’re focused on this offseason ... which is making the team better, whether that’s through internal improvement or finding the right acquisitions or finding the right fits in free agency or trade.”
https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pir ... 2211190064
BC should be a politician. He tells us we shouldn't focus on payroll because all that matters is that the team gets better. Sure, that's a nice spin on the problem. But it is a problem. Because improvement of the team relies upon how well prospects develop into major leaguers and whatever production--if any--they can get from 2nd and 3rd tier veterans taken off the inexpensive MLB scrap heap. Improvement is never assisted by the addition of productive veterans unless they are reclamation projects who turn out to be surprisingly effective.
You don't improve a team simply by throwing money at it. So a higher payroll doesn't guarantee improvement. But OTOH, refusing to keep or acquire productive players in order to keep the payroll extremely low is a guarantee for not improving.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
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Pirates Claim L. Díaz
To a point, he's right.
Payroll in 2023 isn't much of a factor. It's obvious that they're maintaining the status quo of focusing on less-experienced, thus lower-priced talent. And, factory rejects.
That tune's got to change at some point- if any of them are worth keeping. That's when the price tag grows exponentially.
The first sign to me is whether they keep Bryan Reynolds.
Payroll in 2023 isn't much of a factor. It's obvious that they're maintaining the status quo of focusing on less-experienced, thus lower-priced talent. And, factory rejects.
That tune's got to change at some point- if any of them are worth keeping. That's when the price tag grows exponentially.
The first sign to me is whether they keep Bryan Reynolds.
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Bobster21
Pirates Claim L. Díaz
675245454E7745454E4945200 wrote: To a point, he's right.
Payroll in 2023 isn't much of a factor. It's obvious that they're maintaining the status quo of focusing on less-experienced, thus lower-priced talent. And, factory rejects.
That tune's got to change at some point- if any of them are worth keeping. That's when the price tag grows exponentially.
The first sign to me is whether they keep Bryan Reynolds.
Why would Reynolds want to stay? He'll be a FA in 2026 at age 31. He'll get great offers from teams much better than the Pirates. And at 31, he'll have to be thinking about whether he'll ever get into post season play as a Pirates if he signs an extension (even if the money was fair). I suspect he would refuse any extension to buy out FA years, which will result in him being traded in 2024 or 2025 since he would have good trade value but would walk as a FA in 2026 for which they would get nothing in return.
Payroll in 2023 isn't much of a factor. It's obvious that they're maintaining the status quo of focusing on less-experienced, thus lower-priced talent. And, factory rejects.
That tune's got to change at some point- if any of them are worth keeping. That's when the price tag grows exponentially.
The first sign to me is whether they keep Bryan Reynolds.
Why would Reynolds want to stay? He'll be a FA in 2026 at age 31. He'll get great offers from teams much better than the Pirates. And at 31, he'll have to be thinking about whether he'll ever get into post season play as a Pirates if he signs an extension (even if the money was fair). I suspect he would refuse any extension to buy out FA years, which will result in him being traded in 2024 or 2025 since he would have good trade value but would walk as a FA in 2026 for which they would get nothing in return.
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GreenWeenie
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Pirates Claim L. Díaz
I'm not attempting to be a smart ass and, I'm not naive. I'll answer as best I can.
I dont know the truth. I don't know Reynolds or BOB at all. So, I can just say the possible answers.
Many people like stability. I don't know if he's one. But, if he enjoys the team enough, he might be the kind of guy who would stay if he was offered what he wants.
I dont know Andrew McCutchen, either. He may have been telling the truth when he said that he wanted to stay. He could've been lying, too.
Some people enjoy being bigger fish in smaller ponds as opposed to being just one of a dozen stars on Hollywood Boulevard or Madison Avenue.
Maybe the guy would stay if he saw a team being built around him.
Those are possibilities. Until now, guys have had no reason to stay, so there wasn't a possibility.
It's not up to any of us to sell a guy on staying.....or, coming. That's BOB and Ben's job.
If guys are willing to go to or stay in Milwaukee, they'll go to Pittsburgh, so that tells me that it isn't the cities. It's the MLB franchise.
The Pirates need to make the first move. Whether they will, I have no idea.
I dont know the truth. I don't know Reynolds or BOB at all. So, I can just say the possible answers.
Many people like stability. I don't know if he's one. But, if he enjoys the team enough, he might be the kind of guy who would stay if he was offered what he wants.
I dont know Andrew McCutchen, either. He may have been telling the truth when he said that he wanted to stay. He could've been lying, too.
Some people enjoy being bigger fish in smaller ponds as opposed to being just one of a dozen stars on Hollywood Boulevard or Madison Avenue.
Maybe the guy would stay if he saw a team being built around him.
Those are possibilities. Until now, guys have had no reason to stay, so there wasn't a possibility.
It's not up to any of us to sell a guy on staying.....or, coming. That's BOB and Ben's job.
If guys are willing to go to or stay in Milwaukee, they'll go to Pittsburgh, so that tells me that it isn't the cities. It's the MLB franchise.
The Pirates need to make the first move. Whether they will, I have no idea.
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ChillinStation
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Pirates Claim L. Díaz
Well this guy seems like a good pickup to me. Gold glove types at the corners is a start. Now lets find someone to help these guys hit.
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GreenWeenie
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Pirates Claim L. Díaz
A good first baseman pickup to me looked like Adam LaRoche. This guy doesn't look like any Adam LaRoche.
At the very most, he looks adequate, and I'm not sure about that.
I'm a bit surprised that we had to go external to find a first baseman who can't hit.
I side with Surg on this part of what he wrote. We can do better. And, if we can't, then I don't want to know about it.
At the very most, he looks adequate, and I'm not sure about that.
I'm a bit surprised that we had to go external to find a first baseman who can't hit.
I side with Surg on this part of what he wrote. We can do better. And, if we can't, then I don't want to know about it.
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Bobster21
Pirates Claim L. Díaz
744156565D6456565D5A56330 wrote: A good first baseman pickup to me looked like Adam LaRoche. This guy doesn't look like any Adam LaRoche.
At the very most, he looks adequate, and I'm not sure about that.
I'm a bit surprised that we had to go external to find a first baseman who can't hit.
I side with Surg on this part of what he wrote. We can do better. And, if we can't, then I don't want to know about it.
LaRoche was acquired the year after hitting .285 with 32 HRs and 90 RBIs. So he was a known commodity; a productive player. In order to obtain him, they traded Mike Gonzalez who, at the time, had emerged as one of the top relievers in MLB. (Unfortunately, injuries plagued him the rest of his career.)
Diaz has never (at least so far) been able to hit MLB pitching and cost nothing because he was picked up on waivers. It's just another dumpster dive. It's how they operate. LaRoche was acquired to bring his proven abilities to the Pirates and make them stronger. Diaz was acquired just to find out if he could do well enough to make the team in ST. If he flops in ST (which would not be surprising and is probably more likely than not), he would probably clear waivers (he's out of options) and be assigned to AAA. That would be a hedge against losing Malcolm Nunez (who was inexplicably not protected) in Rule 5.
At the very most, he looks adequate, and I'm not sure about that.
I'm a bit surprised that we had to go external to find a first baseman who can't hit.
I side with Surg on this part of what he wrote. We can do better. And, if we can't, then I don't want to know about it.
LaRoche was acquired the year after hitting .285 with 32 HRs and 90 RBIs. So he was a known commodity; a productive player. In order to obtain him, they traded Mike Gonzalez who, at the time, had emerged as one of the top relievers in MLB. (Unfortunately, injuries plagued him the rest of his career.)
Diaz has never (at least so far) been able to hit MLB pitching and cost nothing because he was picked up on waivers. It's just another dumpster dive. It's how they operate. LaRoche was acquired to bring his proven abilities to the Pirates and make them stronger. Diaz was acquired just to find out if he could do well enough to make the team in ST. If he flops in ST (which would not be surprising and is probably more likely than not), he would probably clear waivers (he's out of options) and be assigned to AAA. That would be a hedge against losing Malcolm Nunez (who was inexplicably not protected) in Rule 5.
Pirates Claim L. Díaz
426F62737465723231000 wrote: A good first baseman pickup to me looked like Adam LaRoche. This guy doesn't look like any Adam LaRoche.
At the very most, he looks adequate, and I'm not sure about that.
I'm a bit surprised that we had to go external to find a first baseman who can't hit.
I side with Surg on this part of what he wrote. We can do better. And, if we can't, then I don't want to know about it.
LaRoche was acquired the year after hitting .285 with 32 HRs and 90 RBIs. So he was a known commodity; a productive player. In order to obtain him, they traded Mike Gonzalez who, at the time, had emerged as one of the top relievers in MLB. (Unfortunately, injuries plagued him the rest of his career.)
Diaz has never (at least so far) been able to hit MLB pitching and cost nothing because he was picked up on waivers. It's just another dumpster dive. It's how they operate. LaRoche was acquired to bring his proven abilities to the Pirates and make them stronger. Diaz was acquired just to find out if he could do well enough to make the team in ST. If he flops in ST (which would not be surprising and is probably more likely than not), he would probably clear waivers (he's out of options) and be assigned to AAA. That would be a hedge against losing Malcolm Nunez (who was inexplicably not protected) in Rule 5.
this sure doesn't look like they have much confidence in Nunez becoming a good MLB player.
At the very most, he looks adequate, and I'm not sure about that.
I'm a bit surprised that we had to go external to find a first baseman who can't hit.
I side with Surg on this part of what he wrote. We can do better. And, if we can't, then I don't want to know about it.
LaRoche was acquired the year after hitting .285 with 32 HRs and 90 RBIs. So he was a known commodity; a productive player. In order to obtain him, they traded Mike Gonzalez who, at the time, had emerged as one of the top relievers in MLB. (Unfortunately, injuries plagued him the rest of his career.)
Diaz has never (at least so far) been able to hit MLB pitching and cost nothing because he was picked up on waivers. It's just another dumpster dive. It's how they operate. LaRoche was acquired to bring his proven abilities to the Pirates and make them stronger. Diaz was acquired just to find out if he could do well enough to make the team in ST. If he flops in ST (which would not be surprising and is probably more likely than not), he would probably clear waivers (he's out of options) and be assigned to AAA. That would be a hedge against losing Malcolm Nunez (who was inexplicably not protected) in Rule 5.
this sure doesn't look like they have much confidence in Nunez becoming a good MLB player.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
Pirates Claim L. Díaz
4F626F7E79687F3F3C0D0 wrote: A good first baseman pickup to me looked like Adam LaRoche. This guy doesn't look like any Adam LaRoche.
At the very most, he looks adequate, and I'm not sure about that.
I'm a bit surprised that we had to go external to find a first baseman who can't hit.
I side with Surg on this part of what he wrote. We can do better. And, if we can't, then I don't want to know about it.
LaRoche was acquired the year after hitting .285 with 32 HRs and 90 RBIs. So he was a known commodity; a productive player. In order to obtain him, they traded Mike Gonzalez who, at the time, had emerged as one of the top relievers in MLB. (Unfortunately, injuries plagued him the rest of his career.)
Diaz has never (at least so far) been able to hit MLB pitching and cost nothing because he was picked up on waivers. It's just another dumpster dive. It's how they operate. LaRoche was acquired to bring his proven abilities to the Pirates and make them stronger. Diaz was acquired just to find out if he could do well enough to make the team in ST. If he flops in ST (which would not be surprising and is probably more likely than not), he would probably clear waivers (he's out of options) and be assigned to AAA. That would be a hedge against losing Malcolm Nunez (who was inexplicably not protected) in Rule 5.
Agree with your assessment and the recollection of the LaRoche addition, though I sure hope that you're wrong on the "just how they operate" piece.
It's just how they've operated to date, which is all that we can go by.
I am probably naïve. I'd rather say 'optimistic,' and think that this is temporary and for not much longer.
We can do better today. (meaning- in time for 2023 Opening Day.) Surely, we're not done. It's only the end of November.
At the very most, he looks adequate, and I'm not sure about that.
I'm a bit surprised that we had to go external to find a first baseman who can't hit.
I side with Surg on this part of what he wrote. We can do better. And, if we can't, then I don't want to know about it.
LaRoche was acquired the year after hitting .285 with 32 HRs and 90 RBIs. So he was a known commodity; a productive player. In order to obtain him, they traded Mike Gonzalez who, at the time, had emerged as one of the top relievers in MLB. (Unfortunately, injuries plagued him the rest of his career.)
Diaz has never (at least so far) been able to hit MLB pitching and cost nothing because he was picked up on waivers. It's just another dumpster dive. It's how they operate. LaRoche was acquired to bring his proven abilities to the Pirates and make them stronger. Diaz was acquired just to find out if he could do well enough to make the team in ST. If he flops in ST (which would not be surprising and is probably more likely than not), he would probably clear waivers (he's out of options) and be assigned to AAA. That would be a hedge against losing Malcolm Nunez (who was inexplicably not protected) in Rule 5.
Agree with your assessment and the recollection of the LaRoche addition, though I sure hope that you're wrong on the "just how they operate" piece.
It's just how they've operated to date, which is all that we can go by.
I am probably naïve. I'd rather say 'optimistic,' and think that this is temporary and for not much longer.
We can do better today. (meaning- in time for 2023 Opening Day.) Surely, we're not done. It's only the end of November.