This latest cost saving move has pushed me over the edge. I am not spending another dime on this team. No tickets. No concessions. No apparel. I know this doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but I'll sleep better lol.
I feel like Pirates fans are the ones PT Barnum was talking about.
Sick and tired
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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rucker59@gmail.com
Sick and tired
3A272321342C3B2D254E0 wrote: This latest cost saving move has pushed me over the edge. I am not spending another dime on this team. No tickets. No concessions. No apparel. I know this doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things, but I'll sleep better lol.
I feel like Pirates fans are the ones PT Barnum was talking about.
A lot of people are going over the edge at this same moment. Paul Zeise's show, last night after the game, was like an on-the-air revolt. People ready to throw the bums out.
This weekend series has many thousands of tickets for sale. Some ridiculous prices on stub hub. For example tickets to the Pirates baseball club for $30? Lexus Club approaching $100? Never seen it before but you can get these tickets for tomorrow's game.
I can't imagine the pressure the FO is under as ticket revenue drys up and frankly Nutting is getting embarrassed.
I feel like Pirates fans are the ones PT Barnum was talking about.
A lot of people are going over the edge at this same moment. Paul Zeise's show, last night after the game, was like an on-the-air revolt. People ready to throw the bums out.
This weekend series has many thousands of tickets for sale. Some ridiculous prices on stub hub. For example tickets to the Pirates baseball club for $30? Lexus Club approaching $100? Never seen it before but you can get these tickets for tomorrow's game.
I can't imagine the pressure the FO is under as ticket revenue drys up and frankly Nutting is getting embarrassed.
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CarolinaBucco
Sick and tired
Think about where this franchise was 2 years ago today ... arguably the best team in baseball on its way to 98 wins. Finished with the 2nd best record in MLB. That was a great team and the future seemed VERY bright.
Honestly I cannot believe how far the franchise has fallen in just two short years. Today it feels like the Pirates are one of the worst-run franchises in baseball, and the future feels bleak, depressing.
Two years ago today I felt confident the Pirates were putting everything in place to go on a sustained run, with multiple playoff appearances and maybe even a pennant and World Series appearance.
A lot has changed in the last 2 years.
Honestly I cannot believe how far the franchise has fallen in just two short years. Today it feels like the Pirates are one of the worst-run franchises in baseball, and the future feels bleak, depressing.
Two years ago today I felt confident the Pirates were putting everything in place to go on a sustained run, with multiple playoff appearances and maybe even a pennant and World Series appearance.
A lot has changed in the last 2 years.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Sick and tired
6C4E5D404346414E6D5A4C4C402F0 wrote: Think about where this franchise was 2 years ago today ... arguably the best team in baseball on its way to 98 wins. Finished with the 2nd best record in MLB. That was a great team and the future seemed VERY bright.
Honestly I cannot believe how far the franchise has fallen in just two short years. Today it feels like the Pirates are one of the worst-run franchises in baseball, and the future feels bleak, depressing.
Two years ago today I felt confident the Pirates were putting everything in place to go on a sustained run, with multiple playoff appearances and maybe even a pennant and World Series appearance.
A lot has changed in the last 2 years.
Defenders of the FO will claim "bad luck". Nope, this is what you reap from bad motives.
2 years ago - that team had idenity, class and character. This team is not only lousy, it has no identity, and little class or character.
There is no sense that the players play "for me" with a few exceptions like Jhay. There is no sense this team has anything in common with the rest of Pittsburgh as the Steelers and Pens do. This is just a collection of players, doing their own thing, often at half speed.
Honestly I cannot believe how far the franchise has fallen in just two short years. Today it feels like the Pirates are one of the worst-run franchises in baseball, and the future feels bleak, depressing.
Two years ago today I felt confident the Pirates were putting everything in place to go on a sustained run, with multiple playoff appearances and maybe even a pennant and World Series appearance.
A lot has changed in the last 2 years.
Defenders of the FO will claim "bad luck". Nope, this is what you reap from bad motives.
2 years ago - that team had idenity, class and character. This team is not only lousy, it has no identity, and little class or character.
There is no sense that the players play "for me" with a few exceptions like Jhay. There is no sense this team has anything in common with the rest of Pittsburgh as the Steelers and Pens do. This is just a collection of players, doing their own thing, often at half speed.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Sick and tired
There was some bad luck, bad moves, and bad performances.
The bad luck to me was Kang and Marte. The front office had no idea this was going to happen. It was out of their control as this happened in the off season. One happened in a different country. Burnett was bad luck too. He was still pitching very well but decided to retire.
The bad moves was going with Jaso and Harrison as starters. They moved on from two players who helped them go to the playoffs three years straight.
They got some bad performances from their top players like Cole, Liriano, and McCutchen. Guys who were brought in were worse than their career norms (mostly pitching).
The front office needs to turn this around. I do think they have some very good pieces to build around. There is a ton of potential on the roster. They just cant have any bad luck, bad moves, and bad performances. When those three things all happen at once, it will be hard to overturn.
The bad luck to me was Kang and Marte. The front office had no idea this was going to happen. It was out of their control as this happened in the off season. One happened in a different country. Burnett was bad luck too. He was still pitching very well but decided to retire.
The bad moves was going with Jaso and Harrison as starters. They moved on from two players who helped them go to the playoffs three years straight.
They got some bad performances from their top players like Cole, Liriano, and McCutchen. Guys who were brought in were worse than their career norms (mostly pitching).
The front office needs to turn this around. I do think they have some very good pieces to build around. There is a ton of potential on the roster. They just cant have any bad luck, bad moves, and bad performances. When those three things all happen at once, it will be hard to overturn.
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rucker59@gmail.com
Sick and tired
767D75797C7D662325526B737A7D7D3C717D120 wrote: There was some bad luck, bad moves, and bad performances.
The bad luck to me was Kang and Marte. The front office had no idea this was going to happen. It was out of their control as this happened in the off season. One happened in a different country. Burnett was bad luck too. He was still pitching very well but decided to retire.
The bad moves was going with Jaso and Harrison as starters. They moved on from two players who helped them go to the playoffs three years straight.
They got some bad performances from their top players like Cole, Liriano, and McCutchen. Guys who were brought in were worse than their career norms (mostly pitching).
The front office needs to turn this around. I do think they have some very good pieces to build around. There is a ton of potential on the roster. They just cant have any bad luck, bad moves, and bad performances. When those three things all happen at once, it will be hard to overturn.
Every single team has bad luck, bad moves and bad performances. The one thing that distinguishes the Pirates is they have bad "motives". By that I mean they claim they're in "this" to compete but surely no one can deny those are just words, there is no intention to do what is necessary to compete.
I agree with you, there are some good pieces on this team. But I also believe they need to weed out some attitude AND they certainly need to add to the pieces they do have. And I don't mean Voglesong or Jaso or even Nova. So there is one Q: do you believe the FO will do what is necessary to build out this team using say Cleveland and KC as models of realistic spending?
If you think they will I'll simply say I hope you're right but don't believe it. If you say "no" then you're agreeing it's much more than the bad luck, performance that every team has every year.
The bad luck to me was Kang and Marte. The front office had no idea this was going to happen. It was out of their control as this happened in the off season. One happened in a different country. Burnett was bad luck too. He was still pitching very well but decided to retire.
The bad moves was going with Jaso and Harrison as starters. They moved on from two players who helped them go to the playoffs three years straight.
They got some bad performances from their top players like Cole, Liriano, and McCutchen. Guys who were brought in were worse than their career norms (mostly pitching).
The front office needs to turn this around. I do think they have some very good pieces to build around. There is a ton of potential on the roster. They just cant have any bad luck, bad moves, and bad performances. When those three things all happen at once, it will be hard to overturn.
Every single team has bad luck, bad moves and bad performances. The one thing that distinguishes the Pirates is they have bad "motives". By that I mean they claim they're in "this" to compete but surely no one can deny those are just words, there is no intention to do what is necessary to compete.
I agree with you, there are some good pieces on this team. But I also believe they need to weed out some attitude AND they certainly need to add to the pieces they do have. And I don't mean Voglesong or Jaso or even Nova. So there is one Q: do you believe the FO will do what is necessary to build out this team using say Cleveland and KC as models of realistic spending?
If you think they will I'll simply say I hope you're right but don't believe it. If you say "no" then you're agreeing it's much more than the bad luck, performance that every team has every year.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Sick and tired
No team lost their all star outfielder and starting 3B like the Pirates. Not an excuse, but a fact.
Not sure why you don't think the Pirates followed the Cleveland and Kansas City models? They didn't go as far, but they certainly made a run. The Pirates won more games than the Royals in a tough division. The Royals also went from 95 wins and a WS title to 81 wins the following year. Yes, I would take that WS title and many years of losing afterward, but the models are similar. Cleveland is in the middle of their run and looking very good this year and next. If Cleveland doesn't win a WS this year or next, would they have failed just like the Pirates?
Not sure why you don't think the Pirates followed the Cleveland and Kansas City models? They didn't go as far, but they certainly made a run. The Pirates won more games than the Royals in a tough division. The Royals also went from 95 wins and a WS title to 81 wins the following year. Yes, I would take that WS title and many years of losing afterward, but the models are similar. Cleveland is in the middle of their run and looking very good this year and next. If Cleveland doesn't win a WS this year or next, would they have failed just like the Pirates?
Sick and tired
303B333F3A3B206563142D353C3B3B7A373B540 wrote: There was some bad luck, bad moves, and bad performances.
The bad luck to me was Kang and Marte. The front office had no idea this was going to happen. It was out of their control as this happened in the off season. One happened in a different country. Burnett was bad luck too. He was still pitching very well but decided to retire.
The bad moves was going with Jaso and Harrison as starters. They moved on from two players who helped them go to the playoffs three years straight.
They got some bad performances from their top players like Cole, Liriano, and McCutchen. Guys who were brought in were worse than their career norms (mostly pitching).
The front office needs to turn this around. I do think they have some very good pieces to build around. There is a ton of potential on the roster. They just cant have any bad luck, bad moves, and bad performances. When those three things all happen at once, it will be hard to overturn.
I'm interested in hearing this very good pieces to build around ... who are they? I don't classify enigmas (we have them) as good pieces because they are unreliable. Potential? Sure. Lots of potential. However, potential is what it is. Doesn't mean said player(s) are going to amount to what their talent level suggests. However potential is a word that gets more GMs and managers fired then hired.
FO couldn't see the Marte thing coming, but they surely could see the Kang thing coming. However, they did nothing to help either situation with some money they saved from those two. That is on them. The unfortunate things could have been helped a bit, but the FO decided against, so part of that is on the FO.
The bad luck to me was Kang and Marte. The front office had no idea this was going to happen. It was out of their control as this happened in the off season. One happened in a different country. Burnett was bad luck too. He was still pitching very well but decided to retire.
The bad moves was going with Jaso and Harrison as starters. They moved on from two players who helped them go to the playoffs three years straight.
They got some bad performances from their top players like Cole, Liriano, and McCutchen. Guys who were brought in were worse than their career norms (mostly pitching).
The front office needs to turn this around. I do think they have some very good pieces to build around. There is a ton of potential on the roster. They just cant have any bad luck, bad moves, and bad performances. When those three things all happen at once, it will be hard to overturn.
I'm interested in hearing this very good pieces to build around ... who are they? I don't classify enigmas (we have them) as good pieces because they are unreliable. Potential? Sure. Lots of potential. However, potential is what it is. Doesn't mean said player(s) are going to amount to what their talent level suggests. However potential is a word that gets more GMs and managers fired then hired.
FO couldn't see the Marte thing coming, but they surely could see the Kang thing coming. However, they did nothing to help either situation with some money they saved from those two. That is on them. The unfortunate things could have been helped a bit, but the FO decided against, so part of that is on the FO.
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dogknot17@yahoo.co
Sick and tired
McCutchen, Harrison, Marte were all All Stars. Bell will probably be the Rookie of the Year runner up. Polanco will be 26 and can definitely improve on his 2016 season. Cervelli needs to stay healthy. Kang can be a top 3B if he makes it back. Mercer is fine. Freese, Rodriguez, and Diaz on the bench (Diaz could play a lot). Meadows is a top prospect in all of baseball.
Cole, Taillon, Nova, Williams are a solid four starters. Kuhl and/or some rookies could fill in the rotation. The bullpen has Rivero.
I think those 17 guys are a good start to build around. They can always add and improve those players too.
Cole, Taillon, Nova, Williams are a solid four starters. Kuhl and/or some rookies could fill in the rotation. The bullpen has Rivero.
I think those 17 guys are a good start to build around. They can always add and improve those players too.
Sick and tired
575C54585D5C470204734A525B5C5C1D505C330 wrote: McCutchen, Harrison, Marte were all All Stars. Bell will probably be the Rookie of the Year runner up. Polanco will be 26 and can definitely improve on his 2016 season. Cervelli needs to stay healthy. Kang can be a top 3B if he makes it back. Mercer is fine. Freese, Rodriguez, and Diaz on the bench (Diaz could play a lot). Meadows is a top prospect in all of baseball.
Cole, Taillon, Nova, Williams are a solid four starters. Kuhl and/or some rookies could fill in the rotation. The bullpen has Rivero.
I think those 17 guys are a good start to build around. They can always add and improve those players too.
Marte was once an all-star. Whether that happens again remains to be seen. His 80-game suspension was due to taking PEDs. Did those help him achieve his all-star status? Polanco is an enigma. We were all expecting a lot more. Let's say he is a potential guy, not a very good one that you are trying to sell. Kang ... big IF he makes it back. He might not make it back for 2018 and then what? Cutch has one more year in Pittsburgh as it stands now. He isn't resigning. I don't classify him a core guy to be honest. Core guys have shelf lives more than a year. Harrison is more than serviceable. I will give you Bell. He has shown a lot.
Cole isn't close to the pitcher we envisioned. He is more a three than an ace. His head is a major problem. He could be one of the best, but most people know what's holding him back. So, he is an enigma, which I can't entirely rely on, especially as an ace. He isn't the same arm that posted a 19-8, 2.60 ERA and 1.091 WHIP two years ago. He carried an ERA over 4 quite a bit the second half of the season. Taillon could very well be our best pitcher despite his numbers after returning. Time will tell. Nova? Obviously you haven't watched him pitch like the last 6 weeks. Williams? He is not a core player, nor should be counted as one. He is a serviceable 5. That isn't very good. Kuhl, please don't mention him as a building block. He is Williams. Rivero, I give you.
So, Bell, Harrison and Rivero I give you.
We will see about Taillon. I hope he returns well.
Enigma - Polanco
Nova is a mess
Mercer is serviceable and not a problem, but not one that suggests very good or core.
Cutch isn't a core guy in my eyes. He should be gone in the offseason for assets instead of holding him; not adding anything good in the offseason and making a run (most people know we won't add good pieces).
Williams and Kuhl shouldn't be mentioned in a list with the criteria I gave you. They aren't very good ... they aren't what you term core guys.
I wish you would seriously quit glossing over things and portraying things better than they are when most of us know better.
Cole, Taillon, Nova, Williams are a solid four starters. Kuhl and/or some rookies could fill in the rotation. The bullpen has Rivero.
I think those 17 guys are a good start to build around. They can always add and improve those players too.
Marte was once an all-star. Whether that happens again remains to be seen. His 80-game suspension was due to taking PEDs. Did those help him achieve his all-star status? Polanco is an enigma. We were all expecting a lot more. Let's say he is a potential guy, not a very good one that you are trying to sell. Kang ... big IF he makes it back. He might not make it back for 2018 and then what? Cutch has one more year in Pittsburgh as it stands now. He isn't resigning. I don't classify him a core guy to be honest. Core guys have shelf lives more than a year. Harrison is more than serviceable. I will give you Bell. He has shown a lot.
Cole isn't close to the pitcher we envisioned. He is more a three than an ace. His head is a major problem. He could be one of the best, but most people know what's holding him back. So, he is an enigma, which I can't entirely rely on, especially as an ace. He isn't the same arm that posted a 19-8, 2.60 ERA and 1.091 WHIP two years ago. He carried an ERA over 4 quite a bit the second half of the season. Taillon could very well be our best pitcher despite his numbers after returning. Time will tell. Nova? Obviously you haven't watched him pitch like the last 6 weeks. Williams? He is not a core player, nor should be counted as one. He is a serviceable 5. That isn't very good. Kuhl, please don't mention him as a building block. He is Williams. Rivero, I give you.
So, Bell, Harrison and Rivero I give you.
We will see about Taillon. I hope he returns well.
Enigma - Polanco
Nova is a mess
Mercer is serviceable and not a problem, but not one that suggests very good or core.
Cutch isn't a core guy in my eyes. He should be gone in the offseason for assets instead of holding him; not adding anything good in the offseason and making a run (most people know we won't add good pieces).
Williams and Kuhl shouldn't be mentioned in a list with the criteria I gave you. They aren't very good ... they aren't what you term core guys.
I wish you would seriously quit glossing over things and portraying things better than they are when most of us know better.