7B4E5959526B59595255593C0 wrote: My history book says that if Bobulus Nuttingnus was in charge of building Rome, it would still be under construction, and he'd be telling everyone that it's on some horizon.
sometimes the Horizon is Lost.
Game Thread - 6/5 - Bucs vs DBacks
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skinnyhorse
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Game Thread - 6/5 - Bucs vs DBacks
634E43525544531310210 wrote: Why was Thompson lifted? Just the usual Sheltonanigans?
Bullpen well rested, day off tomorrow, had it set up exactly how he wanted.
Called putting the nail in the coffin. Good move on this one.
It's good when it works. But it's risky (and unnecessary) to fix what ain't broke and just hope the relievers have as good a day as the SP they replaced. It worked today but there have been a few games where Shelton pulled an effective SP and the BP failed.
It doesn't make any sense to remove a guy whose pitching well to put in a reliever who may or may not have it on any given day. If the starter is struggling that's a different story. It's just like a gambler who can't stop, but keeps rolling the dice. Sometimes your lucky but that's no way to manage anything little lone a baseball team.
Bullpen well rested, day off tomorrow, had it set up exactly how he wanted.
Called putting the nail in the coffin. Good move on this one.
It's good when it works. But it's risky (and unnecessary) to fix what ain't broke and just hope the relievers have as good a day as the SP they replaced. It worked today but there have been a few games where Shelton pulled an effective SP and the BP failed.
It doesn't make any sense to remove a guy whose pitching well to put in a reliever who may or may not have it on any given day. If the starter is struggling that's a different story. It's just like a gambler who can't stop, but keeps rolling the dice. Sometimes your lucky but that's no way to manage anything little lone a baseball team.
Game Thread - 6/5 - Bucs vs DBacks
I don't believe BC was ever trying to tank this year. I believe he was doing the best that he could (with a few missteps) with the paltry amount of money authorized by Nutting to field a team that would be a placeholder (albeit one that likely would lose a lot of games) at the major league level until better quality minor league talent could be elevated to the roster.
Last year, there were few players at the upper levels of minor leagues who were ready to contribute to the Pirates. When they reached down to the minors, they tried upper level players like Craig (failed first round pick), Kramer (failed first round pick), Tucker (failed first round pick), Owens, Oliva, Hartleib, Ogle, Overton, and Ponce (acquired by trade). Many of the minor league players BC acquired were younger, and their development, as well as that of players BC drafted, was setback by the cancelled 2020 minor league season.
This year, BC tried to improve the ML roster by signing Perez after trading Stallings, bringing back Tsutugo on a 1 year deal after his hot streak at the end of last year, resigning (low cost move) Gamel, picking up Greg Allen from the Yankees, and by dumpster diving for Vogelbach as a DH. While he did much less (much, much less) on the pitching front, pitching was considerably more expensive than position players on the free agent market. Cumulatively, these moves would not produce a powerhouse (far from it), however, a line-up like the following would not be too bad if everyone came through:
Hayes - 3B - Hitting like he did in 2020
Newman - SS - Placeholder until Cruz got past super 2
Reynolds - CF - Hitting like he did in 2021
Tsutugo - 1st - Hitting like he did at end of 2021 season
Vogelbach - DH (Why did they ever have him hitting 1st)
Gamel - LF - League average production
Perez - C - Could provide some power
Allen - RF - Seemed like he could contribute
Chavis/Tucker/Park - 2nd - Take the best of the above
Clearly, the starting pitching barked (and is still not dependable), but even the 1 dumpster dive for Quintana has worked out to date, and Thompson (Stallings trade) is now contributing. Overall, the bullpen is also an asset.
So --- now this year, what are we seeing. If you take away the fascination with VanMeter (who has made a few contributions); it now appears that the Pirates may have better quality replacements in the minors for the veterans and even some of the younger players who opened the season in Pittsburgh:
1st - Tsutugo fails. Chavis has stepped up big time, and many have high hopes for Martin.
2nd - Revolving door this season. Park, opening day starter, deemed inadequate. Current options: Marcano, Castillo, and Chavis at the major league level, with Bae (AAA) and Gonzalez (AA) available, and perhaps a recall of Castro (who does not appear ready for prime time).
SS - Newman is hurt - Castillo reasonable replacement, Castro not so much, but Cruz (AAA), Bae (AAA) and Peguero (AA) in the minors.
3rd - Hayes. Pirates are counting on him as a 'young veteran'. Castillo and Chavis can help out if needed.
LF - Gamel playing at or above replacement level. Gamel is hurt. Mitchell, Swaggerty, Suwinski, Bae, and perhaps even Allen could be replacements.
CF - Reynolds, the 2022 enigma (rebirth of the 2020 Reynolds).
Swaggerty, Bae, and Suwinski (short-term) replacements, and Peguero, if Cruz sticks at SS.
RF - The revolving door position in 2022 (and 2021) until Bucs reach down to AA and recall Suwinski, who no one was clamoring to see this season. Suwinski now appears to be rounding into a good hitter, and perhaps can claim the RF (or LF) position for years to come. And if he can't, Bae, Swaggerty, Allen, et al could be reasonable replacements.
C - Losing Perez (the first one) hurt on both offense and defense. BC did not have any real alternatives available. Heineman has looked much better than Perez (the second one) these past few games and perhaps can be a contributor. I also see where few catchers are contributing on offense at the major league level this season.
DH - I assume Vogelbach is gone come the end of July, and if so, would expect to see the Bucs employ a revolving door at DH to give players a day off in the field and to help keep players on the bench fresh at the plate. Vogelbach has contributed, but he is too one dimensional for a team that carries a 4 man bench (3 players once you take away the back-up catcher). Moving Vogelbach could allow the team to carry Gamel as a back-up first baseman, reserve outfielder and part-time DH, or
perhaps to recall Martin and see if his time has arrived.
Unfortunately, not many options in the minors on the pitching front that could benefit the starting rotation. Bolton at AAA is pitching well, but is still coming back from injury. Perhaps Burrows or Nicholas at AA as wild hair options.
So --- Was the team trying to tank. I don't think this was ever the case. On offense, the weaknesses on this year's team are a combination of some gambles failing (Tsutugo), some getting injured (Perez, Allen, and to a lesser extent Newman), and some not performing as most expected (Reynolds). The poor starting rotation is a combination of no money from the owner to allow BC to acquire better starters, limited pitching talent in the upper minors (Contreras the exception), and no carry-over starters from 2021 that could be counted upon.
I think 2022 is exactly what many folks expected at the beginning of the season; this is a bridge year. Do the best that you can with what you have, and begin to work minor league players into the major league club. There likely would be a lot of losses, but there would be streaks (perhaps we're in one now), when the team over-performs and creates hope for the future. By the trade deadline, sell off the veterans (although not that much to trade) that you can for more minor leaguers and perhaps even move a minor leaguer or 2 in a deal if it increases the return.
BC is not a genius, but a lot of his moves appear to be adding longer term talent to the mix, and most of his draft picks (some of the higher ranked talent in the system) are still too raw to contribute. Shelton --- while I have hope for the future of the Pirates, I have no hope for him. It appears that BC does not have a blind spot for 'veteranoisity', but we will find out soon when more of the current veterans are scheduled to return.
With Shelton, it appears that he, like many managers, would rather play a veteran, even though their better years (if they ever had any) are behind them.
It appears that the team and this franchise may have a pulse, and that the current GM will try to make it stronger. That was his plan all along, and we are now seeing the next step of its implementation.
Last year, there were few players at the upper levels of minor leagues who were ready to contribute to the Pirates. When they reached down to the minors, they tried upper level players like Craig (failed first round pick), Kramer (failed first round pick), Tucker (failed first round pick), Owens, Oliva, Hartleib, Ogle, Overton, and Ponce (acquired by trade). Many of the minor league players BC acquired were younger, and their development, as well as that of players BC drafted, was setback by the cancelled 2020 minor league season.
This year, BC tried to improve the ML roster by signing Perez after trading Stallings, bringing back Tsutugo on a 1 year deal after his hot streak at the end of last year, resigning (low cost move) Gamel, picking up Greg Allen from the Yankees, and by dumpster diving for Vogelbach as a DH. While he did much less (much, much less) on the pitching front, pitching was considerably more expensive than position players on the free agent market. Cumulatively, these moves would not produce a powerhouse (far from it), however, a line-up like the following would not be too bad if everyone came through:
Hayes - 3B - Hitting like he did in 2020
Newman - SS - Placeholder until Cruz got past super 2
Reynolds - CF - Hitting like he did in 2021
Tsutugo - 1st - Hitting like he did at end of 2021 season
Vogelbach - DH (Why did they ever have him hitting 1st)
Gamel - LF - League average production
Perez - C - Could provide some power
Allen - RF - Seemed like he could contribute
Chavis/Tucker/Park - 2nd - Take the best of the above
Clearly, the starting pitching barked (and is still not dependable), but even the 1 dumpster dive for Quintana has worked out to date, and Thompson (Stallings trade) is now contributing. Overall, the bullpen is also an asset.
So --- now this year, what are we seeing. If you take away the fascination with VanMeter (who has made a few contributions); it now appears that the Pirates may have better quality replacements in the minors for the veterans and even some of the younger players who opened the season in Pittsburgh:
1st - Tsutugo fails. Chavis has stepped up big time, and many have high hopes for Martin.
2nd - Revolving door this season. Park, opening day starter, deemed inadequate. Current options: Marcano, Castillo, and Chavis at the major league level, with Bae (AAA) and Gonzalez (AA) available, and perhaps a recall of Castro (who does not appear ready for prime time).
SS - Newman is hurt - Castillo reasonable replacement, Castro not so much, but Cruz (AAA), Bae (AAA) and Peguero (AA) in the minors.
3rd - Hayes. Pirates are counting on him as a 'young veteran'. Castillo and Chavis can help out if needed.
LF - Gamel playing at or above replacement level. Gamel is hurt. Mitchell, Swaggerty, Suwinski, Bae, and perhaps even Allen could be replacements.
CF - Reynolds, the 2022 enigma (rebirth of the 2020 Reynolds).
Swaggerty, Bae, and Suwinski (short-term) replacements, and Peguero, if Cruz sticks at SS.
RF - The revolving door position in 2022 (and 2021) until Bucs reach down to AA and recall Suwinski, who no one was clamoring to see this season. Suwinski now appears to be rounding into a good hitter, and perhaps can claim the RF (or LF) position for years to come. And if he can't, Bae, Swaggerty, Allen, et al could be reasonable replacements.
C - Losing Perez (the first one) hurt on both offense and defense. BC did not have any real alternatives available. Heineman has looked much better than Perez (the second one) these past few games and perhaps can be a contributor. I also see where few catchers are contributing on offense at the major league level this season.
DH - I assume Vogelbach is gone come the end of July, and if so, would expect to see the Bucs employ a revolving door at DH to give players a day off in the field and to help keep players on the bench fresh at the plate. Vogelbach has contributed, but he is too one dimensional for a team that carries a 4 man bench (3 players once you take away the back-up catcher). Moving Vogelbach could allow the team to carry Gamel as a back-up first baseman, reserve outfielder and part-time DH, or
perhaps to recall Martin and see if his time has arrived.
Unfortunately, not many options in the minors on the pitching front that could benefit the starting rotation. Bolton at AAA is pitching well, but is still coming back from injury. Perhaps Burrows or Nicholas at AA as wild hair options.
So --- Was the team trying to tank. I don't think this was ever the case. On offense, the weaknesses on this year's team are a combination of some gambles failing (Tsutugo), some getting injured (Perez, Allen, and to a lesser extent Newman), and some not performing as most expected (Reynolds). The poor starting rotation is a combination of no money from the owner to allow BC to acquire better starters, limited pitching talent in the upper minors (Contreras the exception), and no carry-over starters from 2021 that could be counted upon.
I think 2022 is exactly what many folks expected at the beginning of the season; this is a bridge year. Do the best that you can with what you have, and begin to work minor league players into the major league club. There likely would be a lot of losses, but there would be streaks (perhaps we're in one now), when the team over-performs and creates hope for the future. By the trade deadline, sell off the veterans (although not that much to trade) that you can for more minor leaguers and perhaps even move a minor leaguer or 2 in a deal if it increases the return.
BC is not a genius, but a lot of his moves appear to be adding longer term talent to the mix, and most of his draft picks (some of the higher ranked talent in the system) are still too raw to contribute. Shelton --- while I have hope for the future of the Pirates, I have no hope for him. It appears that BC does not have a blind spot for 'veteranoisity', but we will find out soon when more of the current veterans are scheduled to return.
With Shelton, it appears that he, like many managers, would rather play a veteran, even though their better years (if they ever had any) are behind them.
It appears that the team and this franchise may have a pulse, and that the current GM will try to make it stronger. That was his plan all along, and we are now seeing the next step of its implementation.
-
WildwoodDave2
Game Thread - 6/5 - Bucs vs DBacks
133F37303B1C2B3D2D5E0 wrote: I don't believe BC was ever trying to tank this year. I believe he was doing the best that he could (with a few missteps) with the paltry amount of money authorized by Nutting to field a team that would be a placeholder (albeit one that likely would lose a lot of games) at the major league level until better quality minor league talent could be elevated to the roster.
Last year, there were few players at the upper levels of minor leagues who were ready to contribute to the Pirates. When they reached down to the minors, they tried upper level players like Craig (failed first round pick), Kramer (failed first round pick), Tucker (failed first round pick), Owens, Oliva, Hartleib, Ogle, Overton, and Ponce (acquired by trade). Many of the minor league players BC acquired were younger, and their development, as well as that of players BC drafted, was setback by the cancelled 2020 minor league season.
This year, BC tried to improve the ML roster by signing Perez after trading Stallings, bringing back Tsutugo on a 1 year deal after his hot streak at the end of last year, resigning (low cost move) Gamel, picking up Greg Allen from the Yankees, and by dumpster diving for Vogelbach as a DH. While he did much less (much, much less) on the pitching front, pitching was considerably more expensive than position players on the free agent market. Cumulatively, these moves would not produce a powerhouse (far from it), however, a line-up like the following would not be too bad if everyone came through:
Hayes - 3B - Hitting like he did in 2020
Newman - SS - Placeholder until Cruz got past super 2
Reynolds - CF - Hitting like he did in 2021
Tsutugo - 1st - Hitting like he did at end of 2021 season
Vogelbach - DH (Why did they ever have him hitting 1st)
Gamel - LF - League average production
Perez - C - Could provide some power
Allen - RF - Seemed like he could contribute
Chavis/Tucker/Park - 2nd - Take the best of the above
Clearly, the starting pitching barked (and is still not dependable), but even the 1 dumpster dive for Quintana has worked out to date, and Thompson (Stallings trade) is now contributing. Overall, the bullpen is also an asset.
So --- now this year, what are we seeing. If you take away the fascination with VanMeter (who has made a few contributions); it now appears that the Pirates may have better quality replacements in the minors for the veterans and even some of the younger players who opened the season in Pittsburgh:
1st - Tsutugo fails. Chavis has stepped up big time, and many have high hopes for Martin.
2nd - Revolving door this season. Park, opening day starter, deemed inadequate. Current options: Marcano, Castillo, and Chavis at the major league level, with Bae (AAA) and Gonzalez (AA) available, and perhaps a recall of Castro (who does not appear ready for prime time).
SS - Newman is hurt - Castillo reasonable replacement, Castro not so much, but Cruz (AAA), Bae (AAA) and Peguero (AA) in the minors.
3rd - Hayes. Pirates are counting on him as a 'young veteran'. Castillo and Chavis can help out if needed.
LF - Gamel playing at or above replacement level. Gamel is hurt. Mitchell, Swaggerty, Suwinski, Bae, and perhaps even Allen could be replacements.
CF - Reynolds, the 2022 enigma (rebirth of the 2020 Reynolds).
Swaggerty, Bae, and Suwinski (short-term) replacements, and Peguero, if Cruz sticks at SS.
RF - The revolving door position in 2022 (and 2021) until Bucs reach down to AA and recall Suwinski, who no one was clamoring to see this season. Suwinski now appears to be rounding into a good hitter, and perhaps can claim the RF (or LF) position for years to come. And if he can't, Bae, Swaggerty, Allen, et al could be reasonable replacements.
C - Losing Perez (the first one) hurt on both offense and defense. BC did not have any real alternatives available. Heineman has looked much better than Perez (the second one) these past few games and perhaps can be a contributor. I also see where few catchers are contributing on offense at the major league level this season.
DH - I assume Vogelbach is gone come the end of July, and if so, would expect to see the Bucs employ a revolving door at DH to give players a day off in the field and to help keep players on the bench fresh at the plate. Vogelbach has contributed, but he is too one dimensional for a team that carries a 4 man bench (3 players once you take away the back-up catcher). Moving Vogelbach could allow the team to carry Gamel as a back-up first baseman, reserve outfielder and part-time DH, or
perhaps to recall Martin and see if his time has arrived.
Unfortunately, not many options in the minors on the pitching front that could benefit the starting rotation. Bolton at AAA is pitching well, but is still coming back from injury. Perhaps Burrows or Nicholas at AA as wild hair options.
So --- Was the team trying to tank. I don't think this was ever the case. On offense, the weaknesses on this year's team are a combination of some gambles failing (Tsutugo), some getting injured (Perez, Allen, and to a lesser extent Newman), and some not performing as most expected (Reynolds). The poor starting rotation is a combination of no money from the owner to allow BC to acquire better starters, limited pitching talent in the upper minors (Contreras the exception), and no carry-over starters from 2021 that could be counted upon.
I think 2022 is exactly what many folks expected at the beginning of the season; this is a bridge year. Do the best that you can with what you have, and begin to work minor league players into the major league club. There likely would be a lot of losses, but there would be streaks (perhaps we're in one now), when the team over-performs and creates hope for the future. By the trade deadline, sell off the veterans (although not that much to trade) that you can for more minor leaguers and perhaps even move a minor leaguer or 2 in a deal if it increases the return.
BC is not a genius, but a lot of his moves appear to be adding longer term talent to the mix, and most of his draft picks (some of the higher ranked talent in the system) are still too raw to contribute. Shelton --- while I have hope for the future of the Pirates, I have no hope for him. It appears that BC does not have a blind spot for 'veteranoisity', but we will find out soon when more of the current veterans are scheduled to return.
With Shelton, it appears that he, like many managers, would rather play a veteran, even though their better years (if they ever had any) are behind them.
It appears that the team and this franchise may have a pulse, and that the current GM will try to make it stronger. That was his plan all along, and we are now seeing the next step of its implementation.
so you believe that the current GM is much better than the previous GM?
Last year, there were few players at the upper levels of minor leagues who were ready to contribute to the Pirates. When they reached down to the minors, they tried upper level players like Craig (failed first round pick), Kramer (failed first round pick), Tucker (failed first round pick), Owens, Oliva, Hartleib, Ogle, Overton, and Ponce (acquired by trade). Many of the minor league players BC acquired were younger, and their development, as well as that of players BC drafted, was setback by the cancelled 2020 minor league season.
This year, BC tried to improve the ML roster by signing Perez after trading Stallings, bringing back Tsutugo on a 1 year deal after his hot streak at the end of last year, resigning (low cost move) Gamel, picking up Greg Allen from the Yankees, and by dumpster diving for Vogelbach as a DH. While he did much less (much, much less) on the pitching front, pitching was considerably more expensive than position players on the free agent market. Cumulatively, these moves would not produce a powerhouse (far from it), however, a line-up like the following would not be too bad if everyone came through:
Hayes - 3B - Hitting like he did in 2020
Newman - SS - Placeholder until Cruz got past super 2
Reynolds - CF - Hitting like he did in 2021
Tsutugo - 1st - Hitting like he did at end of 2021 season
Vogelbach - DH (Why did they ever have him hitting 1st)
Gamel - LF - League average production
Perez - C - Could provide some power
Allen - RF - Seemed like he could contribute
Chavis/Tucker/Park - 2nd - Take the best of the above
Clearly, the starting pitching barked (and is still not dependable), but even the 1 dumpster dive for Quintana has worked out to date, and Thompson (Stallings trade) is now contributing. Overall, the bullpen is also an asset.
So --- now this year, what are we seeing. If you take away the fascination with VanMeter (who has made a few contributions); it now appears that the Pirates may have better quality replacements in the minors for the veterans and even some of the younger players who opened the season in Pittsburgh:
1st - Tsutugo fails. Chavis has stepped up big time, and many have high hopes for Martin.
2nd - Revolving door this season. Park, opening day starter, deemed inadequate. Current options: Marcano, Castillo, and Chavis at the major league level, with Bae (AAA) and Gonzalez (AA) available, and perhaps a recall of Castro (who does not appear ready for prime time).
SS - Newman is hurt - Castillo reasonable replacement, Castro not so much, but Cruz (AAA), Bae (AAA) and Peguero (AA) in the minors.
3rd - Hayes. Pirates are counting on him as a 'young veteran'. Castillo and Chavis can help out if needed.
LF - Gamel playing at or above replacement level. Gamel is hurt. Mitchell, Swaggerty, Suwinski, Bae, and perhaps even Allen could be replacements.
CF - Reynolds, the 2022 enigma (rebirth of the 2020 Reynolds).
Swaggerty, Bae, and Suwinski (short-term) replacements, and Peguero, if Cruz sticks at SS.
RF - The revolving door position in 2022 (and 2021) until Bucs reach down to AA and recall Suwinski, who no one was clamoring to see this season. Suwinski now appears to be rounding into a good hitter, and perhaps can claim the RF (or LF) position for years to come. And if he can't, Bae, Swaggerty, Allen, et al could be reasonable replacements.
C - Losing Perez (the first one) hurt on both offense and defense. BC did not have any real alternatives available. Heineman has looked much better than Perez (the second one) these past few games and perhaps can be a contributor. I also see where few catchers are contributing on offense at the major league level this season.
DH - I assume Vogelbach is gone come the end of July, and if so, would expect to see the Bucs employ a revolving door at DH to give players a day off in the field and to help keep players on the bench fresh at the plate. Vogelbach has contributed, but he is too one dimensional for a team that carries a 4 man bench (3 players once you take away the back-up catcher). Moving Vogelbach could allow the team to carry Gamel as a back-up first baseman, reserve outfielder and part-time DH, or
perhaps to recall Martin and see if his time has arrived.
Unfortunately, not many options in the minors on the pitching front that could benefit the starting rotation. Bolton at AAA is pitching well, but is still coming back from injury. Perhaps Burrows or Nicholas at AA as wild hair options.
So --- Was the team trying to tank. I don't think this was ever the case. On offense, the weaknesses on this year's team are a combination of some gambles failing (Tsutugo), some getting injured (Perez, Allen, and to a lesser extent Newman), and some not performing as most expected (Reynolds). The poor starting rotation is a combination of no money from the owner to allow BC to acquire better starters, limited pitching talent in the upper minors (Contreras the exception), and no carry-over starters from 2021 that could be counted upon.
I think 2022 is exactly what many folks expected at the beginning of the season; this is a bridge year. Do the best that you can with what you have, and begin to work minor league players into the major league club. There likely would be a lot of losses, but there would be streaks (perhaps we're in one now), when the team over-performs and creates hope for the future. By the trade deadline, sell off the veterans (although not that much to trade) that you can for more minor leaguers and perhaps even move a minor leaguer or 2 in a deal if it increases the return.
BC is not a genius, but a lot of his moves appear to be adding longer term talent to the mix, and most of his draft picks (some of the higher ranked talent in the system) are still too raw to contribute. Shelton --- while I have hope for the future of the Pirates, I have no hope for him. It appears that BC does not have a blind spot for 'veteranoisity', but we will find out soon when more of the current veterans are scheduled to return.
With Shelton, it appears that he, like many managers, would rather play a veteran, even though their better years (if they ever had any) are behind them.
It appears that the team and this franchise may have a pulse, and that the current GM will try to make it stronger. That was his plan all along, and we are now seeing the next step of its implementation.
so you believe that the current GM is much better than the previous GM?
-
WildwoodDave2
Game Thread - 6/5 - Bucs vs DBacks
1124333338013333383F33560 wrote: My history book says that if Bobulus Nuttingnus was in charge of building Rome, it would still be under construction, and he'd be telling everyone that it's on some horizon.
your history book has layers of dust on it. Watch you don't sneeze
your history book has layers of dust on it. Watch you don't sneeze