6B3D2B3F302A3A313C2B193E34383035773A590 wrote: 26 days until the first Spring Training game. Here are the illustrious Pirates who have worn number 26:
Howdy Groskloss, Pep Young, Oad Swigart, Joe Sullivan, Johnny Gee, Tommy O'Brian, Hank Gornicki, Elmer Singleton, Bill Koski, Clem Koshorek, Roy Face, Gail Henley, Mike Edwards, Jim Bibby, Amos Otis, Alfonso Pulido, Junior Ortiz, Neal Heaton, Steve Cook, Dennis Lamp, Jeff Robinson, Jason Phillips, Brian Smith, J.J. Davis, Chris Duffy, Joe Hernandez, Ronny Paulino, Dusty Brown, Rod Barajas, Felix Pie, Tony Sanchez, Adam Frazier, Cory Luebke, Josh VanMeter, Miguel Andujar.
Best player to wear number 26: Roy Face. Honorable mention: Jim Bibby.
Looking at Face’s stats is a good reminder of how pitching, especially in his case, has changed over the past 50 years. ElRoy averaged 95 innings each year from 1957 through 1962 when he was used almost exclusively as the closer. It wasn’t out of the ordinary for him to pitch two or more innings in a game. He did what he needed to do to help his team win that night’s game, tomorrow be damned. With the investment teams have in their players today, closers (if not most relievers) are pretty much one inning guys.
Face was great and I believe HOF worthy although I'm not sure what you mean about the closer part. Prior to the 1980s, they were "fireman" because they were used as needed to get out of jams regardless of save situations. And if a starter was going strong after 8 innings, he finished the game instead of letting a reliever get a save by entering for the 9th inning. In today's game, a manager would rather lose than use his best reliever earlier in the game in a non-save situation and it's rare if he enters as early as the 8th inning. So the top reliever often watches from the BP while less talented relievers let a game slip away when he might have been able to get out of the jam if he was not restricted to collecting saves for stat purposes.
As you noted, Face often pitched multiple innings. In fact, in 1962 when he had the most saves of his career (28), more than half (15) were in multiple inning outings. In 10 games that year, he entered as early as the 7th inning. And if he got the Bucs out of a potentially game-losing jam earlier and wasn't around for the 9th, that was okay too. 5 other relievers combined for another 13 saves that year. In 1960 he pitched 114.2 innings with 24 of the team's 33 saves and entered as early as the 7th inning 19 times. He pitched multiple innings 32 times that year (almost half of his 68 appearances). In 1961 he led the team with 17 saves but 4 others combined for another 12. Early in his career he made some starts but, as a reliever, his career splits show he faced batters in the 6th inning 66 times. Thank goodness the closer concept wasn't used back then. Face would have had a ton more saves but the team would have lost a lot more games by not using their best when the game was on the line in the 6th, 7th or 8th innings.
52 days till first Spring Training game
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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2drfischer@gmail.c
52 days till first Spring Training game
446964757263743437060 wrote: 26 days until the first Spring Training game. Here are the illustrious Pirates who have worn number 26:
Howdy Groskloss, Pep Young, Oad Swigart, Joe Sullivan, Johnny Gee, Tommy O'Brian, Hank Gornicki, Elmer Singleton, Bill Koski, Clem Koshorek, Roy Face, Gail Henley, Mike Edwards, Jim Bibby, Amos Otis, Alfonso Pulido, Junior Ortiz, Neal Heaton, Steve Cook, Dennis Lamp, Jeff Robinson, Jason Phillips, Brian Smith, J.J. Davis, Chris Duffy, Joe Hernandez, Ronny Paulino, Dusty Brown, Rod Barajas, Felix Pie, Tony Sanchez, Adam Frazier, Cory Luebke, Josh VanMeter, Miguel Andujar.
Best player to wear number 26: Roy Face. Honorable mention: Jim Bibby.
Looking at Face’s stats is a good reminder of how pitching, especially in his case, has changed over the past 50 years. ElRoy averaged 95 innings each year from 1957 through 1962 when he was used almost exclusively as the closer. It wasn’t out of the ordinary for him to pitch two or more innings in a game. He did what he needed to do to help his team win that night’s game, tomorrow be damned. With the investment teams have in their players today, closers (if not most relievers) are pretty much one inning guys.
Face was great and I believe HOF worthy although I'm not sure what you mean about the closer part. Prior to the 1980s, they were "fireman" because they were used as needed to get out of jams regardless of save situations. And if a starter was going strong after 8 innings, he finished the game instead of letting a reliever get a save by entering for the 9th inning. In today's game, a manager would rather lose than use his best reliever earlier in the game in a non-save situation and it's rare if he enters as early as the 8th inning. So the top reliever often watches from the BP while less talented relievers let a game slip away when he might have been able to get out of the jam if he was not restricted to collecting saves for stat purposes.
As you noted, Face often pitched multiple innings. In fact, in 1962 when he had the most saves of his career (28), more than half (15) were in multiple inning outings. In 10 games that year, he entered as early as the 7th inning. And if he got the Bucs out of a potentially game-losing jam earlier and wasn't around for the 9th, that was okay too. 5 other relievers combined for another 13 saves that year. In 1960 he pitched 114.2 innings with 24 of the team's 33 saves and entered as early as the 7th inning 19 times. He pitched multiple innings 32 times that year (almost half of his 68 appearances). In 1961 he led the team with 17 saves but 4 others combined for another 12. Early in his career he made some starts but, as a reliever, his career splits show he faced batters in the 6th inning 66 times. Thank goodness the closer concept wasn't used back then. Face would have had a ton more saves but the team would have lost a lot more games by not using their best when the game was on the line in the 6th, 7th or 8th innings.
By “closer”, I was referring to the 47 games on average he finished during that 1957-62 period. Compared to today’s closers, that may not be a lot because back then, starters completed many more games. So while closers were known by a different handle in his day, Face, for the most part, served in that role. Or maybe it’s the way I’ve always thought of him.
Howdy Groskloss, Pep Young, Oad Swigart, Joe Sullivan, Johnny Gee, Tommy O'Brian, Hank Gornicki, Elmer Singleton, Bill Koski, Clem Koshorek, Roy Face, Gail Henley, Mike Edwards, Jim Bibby, Amos Otis, Alfonso Pulido, Junior Ortiz, Neal Heaton, Steve Cook, Dennis Lamp, Jeff Robinson, Jason Phillips, Brian Smith, J.J. Davis, Chris Duffy, Joe Hernandez, Ronny Paulino, Dusty Brown, Rod Barajas, Felix Pie, Tony Sanchez, Adam Frazier, Cory Luebke, Josh VanMeter, Miguel Andujar.
Best player to wear number 26: Roy Face. Honorable mention: Jim Bibby.
Looking at Face’s stats is a good reminder of how pitching, especially in his case, has changed over the past 50 years. ElRoy averaged 95 innings each year from 1957 through 1962 when he was used almost exclusively as the closer. It wasn’t out of the ordinary for him to pitch two or more innings in a game. He did what he needed to do to help his team win that night’s game, tomorrow be damned. With the investment teams have in their players today, closers (if not most relievers) are pretty much one inning guys.
Face was great and I believe HOF worthy although I'm not sure what you mean about the closer part. Prior to the 1980s, they were "fireman" because they were used as needed to get out of jams regardless of save situations. And if a starter was going strong after 8 innings, he finished the game instead of letting a reliever get a save by entering for the 9th inning. In today's game, a manager would rather lose than use his best reliever earlier in the game in a non-save situation and it's rare if he enters as early as the 8th inning. So the top reliever often watches from the BP while less talented relievers let a game slip away when he might have been able to get out of the jam if he was not restricted to collecting saves for stat purposes.
As you noted, Face often pitched multiple innings. In fact, in 1962 when he had the most saves of his career (28), more than half (15) were in multiple inning outings. In 10 games that year, he entered as early as the 7th inning. And if he got the Bucs out of a potentially game-losing jam earlier and wasn't around for the 9th, that was okay too. 5 other relievers combined for another 13 saves that year. In 1960 he pitched 114.2 innings with 24 of the team's 33 saves and entered as early as the 7th inning 19 times. He pitched multiple innings 32 times that year (almost half of his 68 appearances). In 1961 he led the team with 17 saves but 4 others combined for another 12. Early in his career he made some starts but, as a reliever, his career splits show he faced batters in the 6th inning 66 times. Thank goodness the closer concept wasn't used back then. Face would have had a ton more saves but the team would have lost a lot more games by not using their best when the game was on the line in the 6th, 7th or 8th innings.
By “closer”, I was referring to the 47 games on average he finished during that 1957-62 period. Compared to today’s closers, that may not be a lot because back then, starters completed many more games. So while closers were known by a different handle in his day, Face, for the most part, served in that role. Or maybe it’s the way I’ve always thought of him.
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Bobster21
52 days till first Spring Training game
752335212E34242F223507202A262E2B6924470 wrote: 26 days until the first Spring Training game. Here are the illustrious Pirates who have worn number 26:
Howdy Groskloss, Pep Young, Oad Swigart, Joe Sullivan, Johnny Gee, Tommy O'Brian, Hank Gornicki, Elmer Singleton, Bill Koski, Clem Koshorek, Roy Face, Gail Henley, Mike Edwards, Jim Bibby, Amos Otis, Alfonso Pulido, Junior Ortiz, Neal Heaton, Steve Cook, Dennis Lamp, Jeff Robinson, Jason Phillips, Brian Smith, J.J. Davis, Chris Duffy, Joe Hernandez, Ronny Paulino, Dusty Brown, Rod Barajas, Felix Pie, Tony Sanchez, Adam Frazier, Cory Luebke, Josh VanMeter, Miguel Andujar.
Best player to wear number 26: Roy Face. Honorable mention: Jim Bibby.
Looking at Face’s stats is a good reminder of how pitching, especially in his case, has changed over the past 50 years. ElRoy averaged 95 innings each year from 1957 through 1962 when he was used almost exclusively as the closer. It wasn’t out of the ordinary for him to pitch two or more innings in a game. He did what he needed to do to help his team win that night’s game, tomorrow be damned. With the investment teams have in their players today, closers (if not most relievers) are pretty much one inning guys.
Face was great and I believe HOF worthy although I'm not sure what you mean about the closer part. Prior to the 1980s, they were "fireman" because they were used as needed to get out of jams regardless of save situations. And if a starter was going strong after 8 innings, he finished the game instead of letting a reliever get a save by entering for the 9th inning. In today's game, a manager would rather lose than use his best reliever earlier in the game in a non-save situation and it's rare if he enters as early as the 8th inning. So the top reliever often watches from the BP while less talented relievers let a game slip away when he might have been able to get out of the jam if he was not restricted to collecting saves for stat purposes.
As you noted, Face often pitched multiple innings. In fact, in 1962 when he had the most saves of his career (28), more than half (15) were in multiple inning outings. In 10 games that year, he entered as early as the 7th inning. And if he got the Bucs out of a potentially game-losing jam earlier and wasn't around for the 9th, that was okay too. 5 other relievers combined for another 13 saves that year. In 1960 he pitched 114.2 innings with 24 of the team's 33 saves and entered as early as the 7th inning 19 times. He pitched multiple innings 32 times that year (almost half of his 68 appearances). In 1961 he led the team with 17 saves but 4 others combined for another 12. Early in his career he made some starts but, as a reliever, his career splits show he faced batters in the 6th inning 66 times. Thank goodness the closer concept wasn't used back then. Face would have had a ton more saves but the team would have lost a lot more games by not using their best when the game was on the line in the 6th, 7th or 8th innings.
By “closer”, I was referring to the 47 games on average he finished during that 1957-62 period. Compared to today’s closers, that may not be a lot because back then, starters completed many more games. So while closers were known by a different handle in his day, Face, for the most part, served in that role. Or maybe it’s the way I’ve always thought of him.
I've always thought the "games finished' stat (GF) is odd. It's still kept but has little value. Last season Bednar had 34 GFs including his 19 saves. Crowe had 20 GFs (4 saves), De Jong had 16 GFs (1 save), Stratton had 14 (2 saves), De Los Santos had 13 (3 saves), Ramirez has 12 (1 save), Underwood had 9 (1 save) and 18 other pitchers combined for 44 more GFs. Someone has to be the last pitcher in a game, even in a blowout. In a 162-game season there has to be 162 GFs. Some pitchers get them because they aren't trusted in high leverage situations and are used in the last inning of blowout losses. At least the "save" documents a reliever who finished a game in a so-called high leverage situation. (I'm not sure entering in the 9th with a 3-run lead is high leverage unless the pitcher struggles and makes it so.) But the stat for who is the last pitcher in every game regardless of the situation doesn't seem to tell us much.
Howdy Groskloss, Pep Young, Oad Swigart, Joe Sullivan, Johnny Gee, Tommy O'Brian, Hank Gornicki, Elmer Singleton, Bill Koski, Clem Koshorek, Roy Face, Gail Henley, Mike Edwards, Jim Bibby, Amos Otis, Alfonso Pulido, Junior Ortiz, Neal Heaton, Steve Cook, Dennis Lamp, Jeff Robinson, Jason Phillips, Brian Smith, J.J. Davis, Chris Duffy, Joe Hernandez, Ronny Paulino, Dusty Brown, Rod Barajas, Felix Pie, Tony Sanchez, Adam Frazier, Cory Luebke, Josh VanMeter, Miguel Andujar.
Best player to wear number 26: Roy Face. Honorable mention: Jim Bibby.
Looking at Face’s stats is a good reminder of how pitching, especially in his case, has changed over the past 50 years. ElRoy averaged 95 innings each year from 1957 through 1962 when he was used almost exclusively as the closer. It wasn’t out of the ordinary for him to pitch two or more innings in a game. He did what he needed to do to help his team win that night’s game, tomorrow be damned. With the investment teams have in their players today, closers (if not most relievers) are pretty much one inning guys.
Face was great and I believe HOF worthy although I'm not sure what you mean about the closer part. Prior to the 1980s, they were "fireman" because they were used as needed to get out of jams regardless of save situations. And if a starter was going strong after 8 innings, he finished the game instead of letting a reliever get a save by entering for the 9th inning. In today's game, a manager would rather lose than use his best reliever earlier in the game in a non-save situation and it's rare if he enters as early as the 8th inning. So the top reliever often watches from the BP while less talented relievers let a game slip away when he might have been able to get out of the jam if he was not restricted to collecting saves for stat purposes.
As you noted, Face often pitched multiple innings. In fact, in 1962 when he had the most saves of his career (28), more than half (15) were in multiple inning outings. In 10 games that year, he entered as early as the 7th inning. And if he got the Bucs out of a potentially game-losing jam earlier and wasn't around for the 9th, that was okay too. 5 other relievers combined for another 13 saves that year. In 1960 he pitched 114.2 innings with 24 of the team's 33 saves and entered as early as the 7th inning 19 times. He pitched multiple innings 32 times that year (almost half of his 68 appearances). In 1961 he led the team with 17 saves but 4 others combined for another 12. Early in his career he made some starts but, as a reliever, his career splits show he faced batters in the 6th inning 66 times. Thank goodness the closer concept wasn't used back then. Face would have had a ton more saves but the team would have lost a lot more games by not using their best when the game was on the line in the 6th, 7th or 8th innings.
By “closer”, I was referring to the 47 games on average he finished during that 1957-62 period. Compared to today’s closers, that may not be a lot because back then, starters completed many more games. So while closers were known by a different handle in his day, Face, for the most part, served in that role. Or maybe it’s the way I’ve always thought of him.
I've always thought the "games finished' stat (GF) is odd. It's still kept but has little value. Last season Bednar had 34 GFs including his 19 saves. Crowe had 20 GFs (4 saves), De Jong had 16 GFs (1 save), Stratton had 14 (2 saves), De Los Santos had 13 (3 saves), Ramirez has 12 (1 save), Underwood had 9 (1 save) and 18 other pitchers combined for 44 more GFs. Someone has to be the last pitcher in a game, even in a blowout. In a 162-game season there has to be 162 GFs. Some pitchers get them because they aren't trusted in high leverage situations and are used in the last inning of blowout losses. At least the "save" documents a reliever who finished a game in a so-called high leverage situation. (I'm not sure entering in the 9th with a 3-run lead is high leverage unless the pitcher struggles and makes it so.) But the stat for who is the last pitcher in every game regardless of the situation doesn't seem to tell us much.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
52 days till first Spring Training game
466B66777061763635040 wrote: 26 days until the first Spring Training game. Here are the illustrious Pirates who have worn number 26:
Howdy Groskloss, Pep Young, Oad Swigart, Joe Sullivan, Johnny Gee, Tommy O'Brian, Hank Gornicki, Elmer Singleton, Bill Koski, Clem Koshorek, Roy Face, Gail Henley, Mike Edwards, Jim Bibby, Amos Otis, Alfonso Pulido, Junior Ortiz, Neal Heaton, Steve Cook, Dennis Lamp, Jeff Robinson, Jason Phillips, Brian Smith, J.J. Davis, Chris Duffy, Joe Hernandez, Ronny Paulino, Dusty Brown, Rod Barajas, Felix Pie, Tony Sanchez, Adam Frazier, Cory Luebke, Josh VanMeter, Miguel Andujar.
Best player to wear number 26: Roy Face. Honorable mention: Jim Bibby.
Looking at Face’s stats is a good reminder of how pitching, especially in his case, has changed over the past 50 years. ElRoy averaged 95 innings each year from 1957 through 1962 when he was used almost exclusively as the closer. It wasn’t out of the ordinary for him to pitch two or more innings in a game. He did what he needed to do to help his team win that night’s game, tomorrow be damned. With the investment teams have in their players today, closers (if not most relievers) are pretty much one inning guys.
Face was great and I believe HOF worthy although I'm not sure what you mean about the closer part. Prior to the 1980s, they were "fireman" because they were used as needed to get out of jams regardless of save situations. And if a starter was going strong after 8 innings, he finished the game instead of letting a reliever get a save by entering for the 9th inning. In today's game, a manager would rather lose than use his best reliever earlier in the game in a non-save situation and it's rare if he enters as early as the 8th inning. So the top reliever often watches from the BP while less talented relievers let a game slip away when he might have been able to get out of the jam if he was not restricted to collecting saves for stat purposes.
As you noted, Face often pitched multiple innings. In fact, in 1962 when he had the most saves of his career (28), more than half (15) were in multiple inning outings. In 10 games that year, he entered as early as the 7th inning. And if he got the Bucs out of a potentially game-losing jam earlier and wasn't around for the 9th, that was okay too. 5 other relievers combined for another 13 saves that year. In 1960 he pitched 114.2 innings with 24 of the team's 33 saves and entered as early as the 7th inning 19 times. He pitched multiple innings 32 times that year (almost half of his 68 appearances). In 1961 he led the team with 17 saves but 4 others combined for another 12. Early in his career he made some starts but, as a reliever, his career splits show he faced batters in the 6th inning 66 times. Thank goodness the closer concept wasn't used back then. Face would have had a ton more saves but the team would have lost a lot more games by not using their best when the game was on the line in the 6th, 7th or 8th innings.
By “closer”, I was referring to the 47 games on average he finished during that 1957-62 period. Compared to today’s closers, that may not be a lot because back then, starters completed many more games. So while closers were known by a different handle in his day, Face, for the most part, served in that role. Or maybe it’s the way I’ve always thought of him.
I've always thought the "games finished' stat (GF) is odd. It's still kept but has little value. Last season Bednar had 34 GFs including his 19 saves. Crowe had 20 GFs (4 saves), De Jong had 16 GFs (1 save), Stratton had 14 (2 saves), De Los Santos had 13 (3 saves), Ramirez has 12 (1 save), Underwood had 9 (1 save) and 18 other pitchers combined for 44 more GFs. Someone has to be the last pitcher in a game, even in a blowout. In a 162-game season there has to be 162 GFs. Some pitchers get them because they aren't trusted in high leverage situations and are used in the last inning of blowout losses. At least the "save" documents a reliever who finished a game in a so-called high leverage situation. (I'm not sure entering in the 9th with a 3-run lead is high leverage unless the pitcher struggles and makes it so.) But the stat for who is the last pitcher in every game regardless of the situation doesn't seem to tell us much.
I wondered the same thing as I looked at Face’s stats on Baseball Reference. I struggled to find meaning to it. I’m sure some GMs and agents try to use it to their advantage during contract negotiations, though I’m not sure how if it’s not tied to Saves. Could there be another purpose that my apathy-towards-analytics brain can’t conjure?
Howdy Groskloss, Pep Young, Oad Swigart, Joe Sullivan, Johnny Gee, Tommy O'Brian, Hank Gornicki, Elmer Singleton, Bill Koski, Clem Koshorek, Roy Face, Gail Henley, Mike Edwards, Jim Bibby, Amos Otis, Alfonso Pulido, Junior Ortiz, Neal Heaton, Steve Cook, Dennis Lamp, Jeff Robinson, Jason Phillips, Brian Smith, J.J. Davis, Chris Duffy, Joe Hernandez, Ronny Paulino, Dusty Brown, Rod Barajas, Felix Pie, Tony Sanchez, Adam Frazier, Cory Luebke, Josh VanMeter, Miguel Andujar.
Best player to wear number 26: Roy Face. Honorable mention: Jim Bibby.
Looking at Face’s stats is a good reminder of how pitching, especially in his case, has changed over the past 50 years. ElRoy averaged 95 innings each year from 1957 through 1962 when he was used almost exclusively as the closer. It wasn’t out of the ordinary for him to pitch two or more innings in a game. He did what he needed to do to help his team win that night’s game, tomorrow be damned. With the investment teams have in their players today, closers (if not most relievers) are pretty much one inning guys.
Face was great and I believe HOF worthy although I'm not sure what you mean about the closer part. Prior to the 1980s, they were "fireman" because they were used as needed to get out of jams regardless of save situations. And if a starter was going strong after 8 innings, he finished the game instead of letting a reliever get a save by entering for the 9th inning. In today's game, a manager would rather lose than use his best reliever earlier in the game in a non-save situation and it's rare if he enters as early as the 8th inning. So the top reliever often watches from the BP while less talented relievers let a game slip away when he might have been able to get out of the jam if he was not restricted to collecting saves for stat purposes.
As you noted, Face often pitched multiple innings. In fact, in 1962 when he had the most saves of his career (28), more than half (15) were in multiple inning outings. In 10 games that year, he entered as early as the 7th inning. And if he got the Bucs out of a potentially game-losing jam earlier and wasn't around for the 9th, that was okay too. 5 other relievers combined for another 13 saves that year. In 1960 he pitched 114.2 innings with 24 of the team's 33 saves and entered as early as the 7th inning 19 times. He pitched multiple innings 32 times that year (almost half of his 68 appearances). In 1961 he led the team with 17 saves but 4 others combined for another 12. Early in his career he made some starts but, as a reliever, his career splits show he faced batters in the 6th inning 66 times. Thank goodness the closer concept wasn't used back then. Face would have had a ton more saves but the team would have lost a lot more games by not using their best when the game was on the line in the 6th, 7th or 8th innings.
By “closer”, I was referring to the 47 games on average he finished during that 1957-62 period. Compared to today’s closers, that may not be a lot because back then, starters completed many more games. So while closers were known by a different handle in his day, Face, for the most part, served in that role. Or maybe it’s the way I’ve always thought of him.
I've always thought the "games finished' stat (GF) is odd. It's still kept but has little value. Last season Bednar had 34 GFs including his 19 saves. Crowe had 20 GFs (4 saves), De Jong had 16 GFs (1 save), Stratton had 14 (2 saves), De Los Santos had 13 (3 saves), Ramirez has 12 (1 save), Underwood had 9 (1 save) and 18 other pitchers combined for 44 more GFs. Someone has to be the last pitcher in a game, even in a blowout. In a 162-game season there has to be 162 GFs. Some pitchers get them because they aren't trusted in high leverage situations and are used in the last inning of blowout losses. At least the "save" documents a reliever who finished a game in a so-called high leverage situation. (I'm not sure entering in the 9th with a 3-run lead is high leverage unless the pitcher struggles and makes it so.) But the stat for who is the last pitcher in every game regardless of the situation doesn't seem to tell us much.
I wondered the same thing as I looked at Face’s stats on Baseball Reference. I struggled to find meaning to it. I’m sure some GMs and agents try to use it to their advantage during contract negotiations, though I’m not sure how if it’s not tied to Saves. Could there be another purpose that my apathy-towards-analytics brain can’t conjure?
52 days till first Spring Training game
055345515E44545F524577505A565E5B1954370 wrote: 26 days until the first Spring Training game. Here are the illustrious Pirates who have worn number 26:
Howdy Groskloss, Pep Young, Oad Swigart, Joe Sullivan, Johnny Gee, Tommy O'Brian, Hank Gornicki, Elmer Singleton, Bill Koski, Clem Koshorek, Roy Face, Gail Henley, Mike Edwards, Jim Bibby, Amos Otis, Alfonso Pulido, Junior Ortiz, Neal Heaton, Steve Cook, Dennis Lamp, Jeff Robinson, Jason Phillips, Brian Smith, J.J. Davis, Chris Duffy, Joe Hernandez, Ronny Paulino, Dusty Brown, Rod Barajas, Felix Pie, Tony Sanchez, Adam Frazier, Cory Luebke, Josh VanMeter, Miguel Andujar.
Best player to wear number 26: Roy Face. Honorable mention: Jim Bibby.
Looking at Face’s stats is a good reminder of how pitching, especially in his case, has changed over the past 50 years. ElRoy averaged 95 innings each year from 1957 through 1962 when he was used almost exclusively as the closer. It wasn’t out of the ordinary for him to pitch two or more innings in a game. He did what he needed to do to help his team win that night’s game, tomorrow be damned. With the investment teams have in their players today, closers (if not most relievers) are pretty much one inning guys.
Face was great and I believe HOF worthy although I'm not sure what you mean about the closer part. Prior to the 1980s, they were "fireman" because they were used as needed to get out of jams regardless of save situations. And if a starter was going strong after 8 innings, he finished the game instead of letting a reliever get a save by entering for the 9th inning. In today's game, a manager would rather lose than use his best reliever earlier in the game in a non-save situation and it's rare if he enters as early as the 8th inning. So the top reliever often watches from the BP while less talented relievers let a game slip away when he might have been able to get out of the jam if he was not restricted to collecting saves for stat purposes.
As you noted, Face often pitched multiple innings. In fact, in 1962 when he had the most saves of his career (28), more than half (15) were in multiple inning outings. In 10 games that year, he entered as early as the 7th inning. And if he got the Bucs out of a potentially game-losing jam earlier and wasn't around for the 9th, that was okay too. 5 other relievers combined for another 13 saves that year. In 1960 he pitched 114.2 innings with 24 of the team's 33 saves and entered as early as the 7th inning 19 times. He pitched multiple innings 32 times that year (almost half of his 68 appearances). In 1961 he led the team with 17 saves but 4 others combined for another 12. Early in his career he made some starts but, as a reliever, his career splits show he faced batters in the 6th inning 66 times. Thank goodness the closer concept wasn't used back then. Face would have had a ton more saves but the team would have lost a lot more games by not using their best when the game was on the line in the 6th, 7th or 8th innings.
By “closer”, I was referring to the 47 games on average he finished during that 1957-62 period. Compared to today’s closers, that may not be a lot because back then, starters completed many more games. So while closers were known by a different handle in his day, Face, for the most part, served in that role. Or maybe it’s the way I’ve always thought of him.
I've always thought the "games finished' stat (GF) is odd. It's still kept but has little value. Last season Bednar had 34 GFs including his 19 saves. Crowe had 20 GFs (4 saves), De Jong had 16 GFs (1 save), Stratton had 14 (2 saves), De Los Santos had 13 (3 saves), Ramirez has 12 (1 save), Underwood had 9 (1 save) and 18 other pitchers combined for 44 more GFs. Someone has to be the last pitcher in a game, even in a blowout. In a 162-game season there has to be 162 GFs. Some pitchers get them because they aren't trusted in high leverage situations and are used in the last inning of blowout losses. At least the "save" documents a reliever who finished a game in a so-called high leverage situation. (I'm not sure entering in the 9th with a 3-run lead is high leverage unless the pitcher struggles and makes it so.) But the stat for who is the last pitcher in every game regardless of the situation doesn't seem to tell us much.
I wondered the same thing as I looked at Face’s stats on Baseball Reference. I struggled to find meaning to it. I’m sure some GMs and agents try to use it to their advantage during contract negotiations, though I’m not sure how if it’s not tied to Saves. Could there be another purpose that my apathy-towards-analytics brain can’t conjure?
the only reason I can think of is that it closes the pitching stat loop on a game.
Howdy Groskloss, Pep Young, Oad Swigart, Joe Sullivan, Johnny Gee, Tommy O'Brian, Hank Gornicki, Elmer Singleton, Bill Koski, Clem Koshorek, Roy Face, Gail Henley, Mike Edwards, Jim Bibby, Amos Otis, Alfonso Pulido, Junior Ortiz, Neal Heaton, Steve Cook, Dennis Lamp, Jeff Robinson, Jason Phillips, Brian Smith, J.J. Davis, Chris Duffy, Joe Hernandez, Ronny Paulino, Dusty Brown, Rod Barajas, Felix Pie, Tony Sanchez, Adam Frazier, Cory Luebke, Josh VanMeter, Miguel Andujar.
Best player to wear number 26: Roy Face. Honorable mention: Jim Bibby.
Looking at Face’s stats is a good reminder of how pitching, especially in his case, has changed over the past 50 years. ElRoy averaged 95 innings each year from 1957 through 1962 when he was used almost exclusively as the closer. It wasn’t out of the ordinary for him to pitch two or more innings in a game. He did what he needed to do to help his team win that night’s game, tomorrow be damned. With the investment teams have in their players today, closers (if not most relievers) are pretty much one inning guys.
Face was great and I believe HOF worthy although I'm not sure what you mean about the closer part. Prior to the 1980s, they were "fireman" because they were used as needed to get out of jams regardless of save situations. And if a starter was going strong after 8 innings, he finished the game instead of letting a reliever get a save by entering for the 9th inning. In today's game, a manager would rather lose than use his best reliever earlier in the game in a non-save situation and it's rare if he enters as early as the 8th inning. So the top reliever often watches from the BP while less talented relievers let a game slip away when he might have been able to get out of the jam if he was not restricted to collecting saves for stat purposes.
As you noted, Face often pitched multiple innings. In fact, in 1962 when he had the most saves of his career (28), more than half (15) were in multiple inning outings. In 10 games that year, he entered as early as the 7th inning. And if he got the Bucs out of a potentially game-losing jam earlier and wasn't around for the 9th, that was okay too. 5 other relievers combined for another 13 saves that year. In 1960 he pitched 114.2 innings with 24 of the team's 33 saves and entered as early as the 7th inning 19 times. He pitched multiple innings 32 times that year (almost half of his 68 appearances). In 1961 he led the team with 17 saves but 4 others combined for another 12. Early in his career he made some starts but, as a reliever, his career splits show he faced batters in the 6th inning 66 times. Thank goodness the closer concept wasn't used back then. Face would have had a ton more saves but the team would have lost a lot more games by not using their best when the game was on the line in the 6th, 7th or 8th innings.
By “closer”, I was referring to the 47 games on average he finished during that 1957-62 period. Compared to today’s closers, that may not be a lot because back then, starters completed many more games. So while closers were known by a different handle in his day, Face, for the most part, served in that role. Or maybe it’s the way I’ve always thought of him.
I've always thought the "games finished' stat (GF) is odd. It's still kept but has little value. Last season Bednar had 34 GFs including his 19 saves. Crowe had 20 GFs (4 saves), De Jong had 16 GFs (1 save), Stratton had 14 (2 saves), De Los Santos had 13 (3 saves), Ramirez has 12 (1 save), Underwood had 9 (1 save) and 18 other pitchers combined for 44 more GFs. Someone has to be the last pitcher in a game, even in a blowout. In a 162-game season there has to be 162 GFs. Some pitchers get them because they aren't trusted in high leverage situations and are used in the last inning of blowout losses. At least the "save" documents a reliever who finished a game in a so-called high leverage situation. (I'm not sure entering in the 9th with a 3-run lead is high leverage unless the pitcher struggles and makes it so.) But the stat for who is the last pitcher in every game regardless of the situation doesn't seem to tell us much.
I wondered the same thing as I looked at Face’s stats on Baseball Reference. I struggled to find meaning to it. I’m sure some GMs and agents try to use it to their advantage during contract negotiations, though I’m not sure how if it’s not tied to Saves. Could there be another purpose that my apathy-towards-analytics brain can’t conjure?
the only reason I can think of is that it closes the pitching stat loop on a game.
52 days till first Spring Training game
24 days until the first Spring Training game. Here are the illustrious Pirates who have worn number 24:
Gus Suhr, Bob Elliott, Johnny Gee, Ken Jungles, Bill Brandt, Ed Albosta, Ed Bahr, Bob Chesnes, Hank Borowy, Don Carlsen, Paul LaPalme, Dick Groat, Jerry Lynch, Manny Jimenez, Gene Garber, Jim Nelson, John Lamb, Paul Popovich, Omar Moreno, Bobby Tolan, Tommy Helms, Will McEnaney, Mike Easler, John Tudor, Denny Gonzalez, Barry Bonds, Dennis Moeller, Zane Smith, Brian Giles, Ruben Mateo, Tom Gorzelanny, Delwyn Young, Pedro Alvarez, Cole Figueroa, Eric Fryer, Tyler Glasnow, Chris Archer, Phillip Evans, Greg Allen.
FYI-this set of names was taken from baseball reference, not baseball almanac, as that site was down for now.
Best player to wear number 24: Barry Bonds. Honorable mention: Gus Suhr, Dick Groat, Mike Easler, Brian Giles, Pedro Alvarez.
Gus Suhr, Bob Elliott, Johnny Gee, Ken Jungles, Bill Brandt, Ed Albosta, Ed Bahr, Bob Chesnes, Hank Borowy, Don Carlsen, Paul LaPalme, Dick Groat, Jerry Lynch, Manny Jimenez, Gene Garber, Jim Nelson, John Lamb, Paul Popovich, Omar Moreno, Bobby Tolan, Tommy Helms, Will McEnaney, Mike Easler, John Tudor, Denny Gonzalez, Barry Bonds, Dennis Moeller, Zane Smith, Brian Giles, Ruben Mateo, Tom Gorzelanny, Delwyn Young, Pedro Alvarez, Cole Figueroa, Eric Fryer, Tyler Glasnow, Chris Archer, Phillip Evans, Greg Allen.
FYI-this set of names was taken from baseball reference, not baseball almanac, as that site was down for now.
Best player to wear number 24: Barry Bonds. Honorable mention: Gus Suhr, Dick Groat, Mike Easler, Brian Giles, Pedro Alvarez.
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GreenWeenie
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:47 pm
52 days till first Spring Training game
Pedro Alvarez frustrated me more than any player whom I can recall. His defense just couldn't approach his offensive power. He was a guy who helped the team and hurt it. I agree with Surg who once wrote that, without him, the Pirates might not have ended the CLS Streak as early. That allows me to lessen my negative reaction about him.
He had more than enough chances to improve.
NH said that his biggest regret (I'm not sure if he said it before The Trade or after) was that he brought Alvarez up from the minors too early; that he was aware of his needs. I give a pass on that. The way Alvarez was hitting in the minors, it seemed like anyone who cared was screaming to bring him up weeks earlier.
I remember the night he was drafted like it was last night; how people had him going into the HOF the very next day. So much for suspects.
He had more than enough chances to improve.
NH said that his biggest regret (I'm not sure if he said it before The Trade or after) was that he brought Alvarez up from the minors too early; that he was aware of his needs. I give a pass on that. The way Alvarez was hitting in the minors, it seemed like anyone who cared was screaming to bring him up weeks earlier.
I remember the night he was drafted like it was last night; how people had him going into the HOF the very next day. So much for suspects.
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2drfischer@gmail.c
52 days till first Spring Training game
012720353C30273139520 wrote: 24 days until the first Spring Training game. Here are the illustrious Pirates who have worn number 24:
Gus Suhr, Bob Elliott, Johnny Gee, Ken Jungles, Bill Brandt, Ed Albosta, Ed Bahr, Bob Chesnes, Hank Borowy, Don Carlsen, Paul LaPalme, Dick Groat, Jerry Lynch, Manny Jimenez, Gene Garber, Jim Nelson, John Lamb, Paul Popovich, Omar Moreno, Bobby Tolan, Tommy Helms, Will McEnaney, Mike Easler, John Tudor, Denny Gonzalez, Barry Bonds, Dennis Moeller, Zane Smith, Brian Giles, Ruben Mateo, Tom Gorzelanny, Delwyn Young, Pedro Alvarez, Cole Figueroa, Eric Fryer, Tyler Glasnow, Chris Archer, Phillip Evans, Greg Allen.
FYI-this set of names was taken from baseball reference, not baseball almanac, as that site was down for now.
Best player to wear number 24: Barry Bonds. Honorable mention: Gus Suhr, Dick Groat, Mike Easler, Brian Giles, Pedro Alvarez.
Nice solid list of best players to wear #24: couple of league MVPs, plus Giles, who was really, really good when he was here.
Gus Suhr, Bob Elliott, Johnny Gee, Ken Jungles, Bill Brandt, Ed Albosta, Ed Bahr, Bob Chesnes, Hank Borowy, Don Carlsen, Paul LaPalme, Dick Groat, Jerry Lynch, Manny Jimenez, Gene Garber, Jim Nelson, John Lamb, Paul Popovich, Omar Moreno, Bobby Tolan, Tommy Helms, Will McEnaney, Mike Easler, John Tudor, Denny Gonzalez, Barry Bonds, Dennis Moeller, Zane Smith, Brian Giles, Ruben Mateo, Tom Gorzelanny, Delwyn Young, Pedro Alvarez, Cole Figueroa, Eric Fryer, Tyler Glasnow, Chris Archer, Phillip Evans, Greg Allen.
FYI-this set of names was taken from baseball reference, not baseball almanac, as that site was down for now.
Best player to wear number 24: Barry Bonds. Honorable mention: Gus Suhr, Dick Groat, Mike Easler, Brian Giles, Pedro Alvarez.
Nice solid list of best players to wear #24: couple of league MVPs, plus Giles, who was really, really good when he was here.
52 days till first Spring Training game
Yep Doc, 24 is a powerhouse number for the Bucs. But you'll see similar with the remaining numbers counting down.
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Bobster21
52 days till first Spring Training game
1C3A3D28212D3A2C244F0 wrote: 24 days until the first Spring Training game. Here are the illustrious Pirates who have worn number 24:
Gus Suhr, Bob Elliott, Johnny Gee, Ken Jungles, Bill Brandt, Ed Albosta, Ed Bahr, Bob Chesnes, Hank Borowy, Don Carlsen, Paul LaPalme, Dick Groat, Jerry Lynch, Manny Jimenez, Gene Garber, Jim Nelson, John Lamb, Paul Popovich, Omar Moreno, Bobby Tolan, Tommy Helms, Will McEnaney, Mike Easler, John Tudor, Denny Gonzalez, Barry Bonds, Dennis Moeller, Zane Smith, Brian Giles, Ruben Mateo, Tom Gorzelanny, Delwyn Young, Pedro Alvarez, Cole Figueroa, Eric Fryer, Tyler Glasnow, Chris Archer, Phillip Evans, Greg Allen.
FYI-this set of names was taken from baseball reference, not baseball almanac, as that site was down for now.
Best player to wear number 24: Barry Bonds. Honorable mention: Gus Suhr, Dick Groat, Mike Easler, Brian Giles, Pedro Alvarez.
I saw Manny Jinenez hit 3 HRs for KC against the Orioles on July 4, 1964. 2 off Robin Roberts and 1 off former Pirate Dick Hall. The game ended in a 6-6 tie after 9 innings because they needed time to have a Civil War battle reenactment in the outfield and then set up the fireworks. Harvey Haddix and Gino Cimoli also appeared in the game for the Orioles.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxe ... 7040.shtml
Gus Suhr, Bob Elliott, Johnny Gee, Ken Jungles, Bill Brandt, Ed Albosta, Ed Bahr, Bob Chesnes, Hank Borowy, Don Carlsen, Paul LaPalme, Dick Groat, Jerry Lynch, Manny Jimenez, Gene Garber, Jim Nelson, John Lamb, Paul Popovich, Omar Moreno, Bobby Tolan, Tommy Helms, Will McEnaney, Mike Easler, John Tudor, Denny Gonzalez, Barry Bonds, Dennis Moeller, Zane Smith, Brian Giles, Ruben Mateo, Tom Gorzelanny, Delwyn Young, Pedro Alvarez, Cole Figueroa, Eric Fryer, Tyler Glasnow, Chris Archer, Phillip Evans, Greg Allen.
FYI-this set of names was taken from baseball reference, not baseball almanac, as that site was down for now.
Best player to wear number 24: Barry Bonds. Honorable mention: Gus Suhr, Dick Groat, Mike Easler, Brian Giles, Pedro Alvarez.
I saw Manny Jinenez hit 3 HRs for KC against the Orioles on July 4, 1964. 2 off Robin Roberts and 1 off former Pirate Dick Hall. The game ended in a 6-6 tie after 9 innings because they needed time to have a Civil War battle reenactment in the outfield and then set up the fireworks. Harvey Haddix and Gino Cimoli also appeared in the game for the Orioles.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxe ... 7040.shtml