Come On Pirates Do Something
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SammyKhalifa
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Come On Pirates Do Something
Yeah, don't get me wrong, it's just continued mediocrity for the most part.
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OrlandoMerced
Come On Pirates Do Something
51636F6F7B496A636E6B6463020 wrote: Nova went from 6 innings per start in 2017 to 5.5 innings per start. He was the oldest, most expensive, and worst pitcher in the rotation. I can't understand why people think dumping him was sort of travesty. I would bet a healthy sum that whoever makes the majority of the starts behind the top four, outperforms Nova in 2019.
As for the Reds, Kemp and Puig are average corner OF's. The Reds are a good offensive team. But it's insane to think think they have surpassed the Pirates with this move.
I don't think it's a travesty to lose him--he was way up and down. But I'd hope that we traded him in order to get someone better instead (I don't know how you could think of Kingham/Brault/Etc. as anything but at best a lateral move).
I disagree, I think at worst it is a lateral move. I think it comes down to Lyles vs Kingham. Kingham showed potential last year, even though he looked completely worn down at the end of the season, I think at worst he's a 2018 Nova clone. No one knows what Lyles is, and if neither of these guys work out, they still have Keller sitting in AAA.
As for the Reds, Kemp and Puig are average corner OF's. The Reds are a good offensive team. But it's insane to think think they have surpassed the Pirates with this move.
I don't think it's a travesty to lose him--he was way up and down. But I'd hope that we traded him in order to get someone better instead (I don't know how you could think of Kingham/Brault/Etc. as anything but at best a lateral move).
I disagree, I think at worst it is a lateral move. I think it comes down to Lyles vs Kingham. Kingham showed potential last year, even though he looked completely worn down at the end of the season, I think at worst he's a 2018 Nova clone. No one knows what Lyles is, and if neither of these guys work out, they still have Keller sitting in AAA.
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SammyKhalifa
- Posts: 3631
- Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:19 am
Come On Pirates Do Something
Well I hope you're right!
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OrlandoMerced
Come On Pirates Do Something
785C484045290 wrote: Losing Nova weakened the starting staff. Dumping his salary took valuable depth (at the least) from our rotation. Now we have to cross our fingers that one of our young, unproven pitchers will fill the #5 spot in the rotation. In short, we've added some uncertainty to what was to be a position of depth and strength.
Any team built around a pitching staff must have a defense capable of complementing that strength. Last year our defense at the corner infield positions was a weakness. To compound the problem, the offensive production from Moran and Bell was disappointing at best. Assuming neither of these guys will ever be even average defensively, we need legitimate corner infield power and production from them. Perhaps Kang will rebound and provide an upgrade in both offense and defense at 3B (or even 1B), but we've already got our the fingers crossed on our other hand in hopes that he'll return to form after a two year absence from playing.
Also worth mentioning that we're expecting a former utility player in Frazier to assume full-time duties at 2B. His defense looked to be improved in the time he played there at the end of 2018, but will he sustain that over the course of a full season? And if not, what's the backup plan?
And then of course there is the matter of shortstop which remains unresolved.
Right now this team looks like one that will have some good pitching, questionable infield defense and a lineup featuring a bunch of complementary type hitters, lacking a legitimate heart of the order.
Very much agree. Although I don't share the same concerns about having some questions surrounding the #5 starter (especially considering the strength of the bullpen). The infield has major issues. Based on reporting, they are going to bring in another SS, so that should at least mitigate the risk of having Newman as the starting SS. Bell was a disaster at 1B last year, and if he hadn't finished the year strong at the plate, he would have been absolute albatross. They are placing all of their eggs in his basket, and any chance of success in 2019 depends on his development. I think they have more options at 3B should Moran falter, so I don't think they have the same dependencies on his growth.
Any team built around a pitching staff must have a defense capable of complementing that strength. Last year our defense at the corner infield positions was a weakness. To compound the problem, the offensive production from Moran and Bell was disappointing at best. Assuming neither of these guys will ever be even average defensively, we need legitimate corner infield power and production from them. Perhaps Kang will rebound and provide an upgrade in both offense and defense at 3B (or even 1B), but we've already got our the fingers crossed on our other hand in hopes that he'll return to form after a two year absence from playing.
Also worth mentioning that we're expecting a former utility player in Frazier to assume full-time duties at 2B. His defense looked to be improved in the time he played there at the end of 2018, but will he sustain that over the course of a full season? And if not, what's the backup plan?
And then of course there is the matter of shortstop which remains unresolved.
Right now this team looks like one that will have some good pitching, questionable infield defense and a lineup featuring a bunch of complementary type hitters, lacking a legitimate heart of the order.
Very much agree. Although I don't share the same concerns about having some questions surrounding the #5 starter (especially considering the strength of the bullpen). The infield has major issues. Based on reporting, they are going to bring in another SS, so that should at least mitigate the risk of having Newman as the starting SS. Bell was a disaster at 1B last year, and if he hadn't finished the year strong at the plate, he would have been absolute albatross. They are placing all of their eggs in his basket, and any chance of success in 2019 depends on his development. I think they have more options at 3B should Moran falter, so I don't think they have the same dependencies on his growth.
Come On Pirates Do Something
As someone suggested, I suspect they wait till late in January or even February, when players get willing to accept team-friendly deals (as being better than no deal). It's hard to say at this point what players are demanding and what teams are offering, but it's clear there's a stalemate for the time being.
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DemDog
Come On Pirates Do Something
Sammy, the Bucs did have a winning season last year and they finished in 4th place in the division.
Come On Pirates Do Something
My concern with the starting staff is depth. At present, the team has 4 starters. However, Musgrove was often injured last year and Kuhl was lost to season ending surgery. Few teams make it through a season without losing pitching.
Trading Nova becomes a problem if the team fails to add a better starter. Depth is an issue. Keller still seems to be half a season or more away, Holmes showed nothing at the major league level last year, Kingham was unreliable, and the new guy, Lyles, has no track record of success as a starter.
While I understand that Rivera, Kela, Crick and Rodriquez all experienced success last year, I also am concerned about the relief pitching. Kela was shut down after pitching less than 55 innings last year, Rodriquez experienced his first run of success, and Crick likely pitched a bit better than he is. The lack of a second lefty (after Rivera) remains troubling, and folks like Feliz, the Neverman, Brault and Burdi have shown little to demonstrate that you can count on them.
I recognize that the Bucs likely will continue to be bottom feeders when it comes to adding another starter and more relievers, but I for one hope that NH acquires more pitching talent. 162 games is a long season, and with a mediocre (at best) defense and an offense with little power, this team is going to need to rely on its pitching to try and be competitive.
Trading Nova becomes a problem if the team fails to add a better starter. Depth is an issue. Keller still seems to be half a season or more away, Holmes showed nothing at the major league level last year, Kingham was unreliable, and the new guy, Lyles, has no track record of success as a starter.
While I understand that Rivera, Kela, Crick and Rodriquez all experienced success last year, I also am concerned about the relief pitching. Kela was shut down after pitching less than 55 innings last year, Rodriquez experienced his first run of success, and Crick likely pitched a bit better than he is. The lack of a second lefty (after Rivera) remains troubling, and folks like Feliz, the Neverman, Brault and Burdi have shown little to demonstrate that you can count on them.
I recognize that the Bucs likely will continue to be bottom feeders when it comes to adding another starter and more relievers, but I for one hope that NH acquires more pitching talent. 162 games is a long season, and with a mediocre (at best) defense and an offense with little power, this team is going to need to rely on its pitching to try and be competitive.
Come On Pirates Do Something
7449575A555F54765E49585E5F3B0 wrote: Nova went from 6 innings per start in 2017 to 5.5 innings per start. He was the oldest, most expensive, and worst pitcher in the rotation. I can't understand why people think dumping him was sort of travesty. I would bet a healthy sum that whoever makes the majority of the starts behind the top four, outperforms Nova in 2019.
As for the Reds, Kemp and Puig are average corner OF's. The Reds are a good offensive team. But it's insane to think think they have surpassed the Pirates with this move.
Kemp and Puig would probably both start in Pittsburgh?
The Reds lineup is much better than ours. 5 of their starting position players are projected to hit 20+ HR's. Of course their rotation is crap but these rosters are way closer in talent than you are giving credit for.
As for the Reds, Kemp and Puig are average corner OF's. The Reds are a good offensive team. But it's insane to think think they have surpassed the Pirates with this move.
Kemp and Puig would probably both start in Pittsburgh?
The Reds lineup is much better than ours. 5 of their starting position players are projected to hit 20+ HR's. Of course their rotation is crap but these rosters are way closer in talent than you are giving credit for.Come On Pirates Do Something
7548565B545E55775F48595F5E3A0 wrote: Nova went from 6 innings per start in 2017 to 5.5 innings per start. He was the oldest, most expensive, and worst pitcher in the rotation. I can't understand why people think dumping him was sort of travesty. I would bet a healthy sum that whoever makes the majority of the starts behind the top four, outperforms Nova in 2019.
As for the Reds, Kemp and Puig are average corner OF's. The Reds are a good offensive team. But it's insane to think think they have surpassed the Pirates with this move.
I don't think it's a travesty to lose him--he was way up and down. But I'd hope that we traded him in order to get someone better instead (I don't know how you could think of Kingham/Brault/Etc. as anything but at best a lateral move).
I disagree, I think at worst it is a lateral move. I think it comes down to Lyles vs Kingham. Kingham showed potential last year, even though he looked completely worn down at the end of the season, I think at worst he's a 2018 Nova clone. No one knows what Lyles is, and if neither of these guys work out, they still have Keller sitting in AAA.
What don't we know about Lyles? He's pitched 768 big league innings to a tune of 5.28 ERA?? He hasn't ever pitched more than 165 innings and that was in 2013. Kingham isn't going to pitch the innings that Nova did last year. Keller doesn't look ready? So I guess we cobble together a patchwork of pitchers every 5th day? There has to be someone available that is equal to or better than Nova that has a palatable salary. I'm so glad as Pirate fans that we care more about the Nut's wallet than the product on the field.
As for the Reds, Kemp and Puig are average corner OF's. The Reds are a good offensive team. But it's insane to think think they have surpassed the Pirates with this move.
I don't think it's a travesty to lose him--he was way up and down. But I'd hope that we traded him in order to get someone better instead (I don't know how you could think of Kingham/Brault/Etc. as anything but at best a lateral move).
I disagree, I think at worst it is a lateral move. I think it comes down to Lyles vs Kingham. Kingham showed potential last year, even though he looked completely worn down at the end of the season, I think at worst he's a 2018 Nova clone. No one knows what Lyles is, and if neither of these guys work out, they still have Keller sitting in AAA.
What don't we know about Lyles? He's pitched 768 big league innings to a tune of 5.28 ERA?? He hasn't ever pitched more than 165 innings and that was in 2013. Kingham isn't going to pitch the innings that Nova did last year. Keller doesn't look ready? So I guess we cobble together a patchwork of pitchers every 5th day? There has to be someone available that is equal to or better than Nova that has a palatable salary. I'm so glad as Pirate fans that we care more about the Nut's wallet than the product on the field.
Come On Pirates Do Something
765B56474051460605340 wrote: I think if we look at the best case scenario, the Pirates look pretty decent. But there are so many "ifs" that this scenario seems unlikely.
Will Bell find a consistent swing and be a steady hitter with power? Or will he continue to be streaky due to an inability to maintain a good swing? Will Moran develop the power expected of a corner infielder or continue to hit as he did last year? Will Bell and/or Moran become adequate defensively or continue to be liabilities in the field? Will Frazier be adequate defensively at 2B? Can Cervelli and Chisenhall buck their recent trends and stay healthy? What if anything can they expect from Kang? Who is the SS? Can Archer rebound into a top of the rotation starter? Can Musgrove find consistency? Can Williams repeat his success from last year? Can the 5th starter pitch at an acceptable level? Who is in the front end of the BP? That's a lot of uncertainty to count on.
On the same matter though, like every year here we're going to see a bunch of people saying this is a 95 loss team, etc. It would take an equal amount of "luck" for those peoples' scenarios to happen. Those people are just as unrealistic.
I do think the division will be pretty good though, with perhaps even the last-place team having a winning record.
I think it's reasonable to expect some of the "ifs" to work out positively and others not so much. I don't expect a terrible team nor a post season participant. My best guess is that we can expect as few as 80 or as many as 85 wins depending on how many of the "ifs" work out in the team's favor.
I think that's a fair assessment. I feel like the Pirates have some talent, but thus far this offseason NH is treading water. Losing Nova, but signing Kang and bringing in Gonzales does little to convince me that 2019 will produce significantly different results than the 2018 team. Add to that the fact that other teams in the division (notably the Reds and Cardinals) have unquestionably improved themselves, and the Pirates have the look of a team that will be closer to the bottom of the division rather than the top.
Of course there are scenarios that could give the Pirates a legitimate shot at the post season (as you mentioned), such as: Bell improving defensively and developing the 30 home run power we all hoped for, a similar but more modest improvement from Moran, Kang returning to his 2015-2016 form, a step forward from all of our young starting pitchers, Frazier becoming a solid performer at 2B, and signing an excellent defensive shortstop. If all that happens we just might contend for a division title in what looks to be a tough division.
Will Bell find a consistent swing and be a steady hitter with power? Or will he continue to be streaky due to an inability to maintain a good swing? Will Moran develop the power expected of a corner infielder or continue to hit as he did last year? Will Bell and/or Moran become adequate defensively or continue to be liabilities in the field? Will Frazier be adequate defensively at 2B? Can Cervelli and Chisenhall buck their recent trends and stay healthy? What if anything can they expect from Kang? Who is the SS? Can Archer rebound into a top of the rotation starter? Can Musgrove find consistency? Can Williams repeat his success from last year? Can the 5th starter pitch at an acceptable level? Who is in the front end of the BP? That's a lot of uncertainty to count on.
On the same matter though, like every year here we're going to see a bunch of people saying this is a 95 loss team, etc. It would take an equal amount of "luck" for those peoples' scenarios to happen. Those people are just as unrealistic.
I do think the division will be pretty good though, with perhaps even the last-place team having a winning record.
I think it's reasonable to expect some of the "ifs" to work out positively and others not so much. I don't expect a terrible team nor a post season participant. My best guess is that we can expect as few as 80 or as many as 85 wins depending on how many of the "ifs" work out in the team's favor.
I think that's a fair assessment. I feel like the Pirates have some talent, but thus far this offseason NH is treading water. Losing Nova, but signing Kang and bringing in Gonzales does little to convince me that 2019 will produce significantly different results than the 2018 team. Add to that the fact that other teams in the division (notably the Reds and Cardinals) have unquestionably improved themselves, and the Pirates have the look of a team that will be closer to the bottom of the division rather than the top.
Of course there are scenarios that could give the Pirates a legitimate shot at the post season (as you mentioned), such as: Bell improving defensively and developing the 30 home run power we all hoped for, a similar but more modest improvement from Moran, Kang returning to his 2015-2016 form, a step forward from all of our young starting pitchers, Frazier becoming a solid performer at 2B, and signing an excellent defensive shortstop. If all that happens we just might contend for a division title in what looks to be a tough division.