Both Derek Shelton and Ben Cherington have mentioned about changing the culture in the clubhouse. I think in order to change the culture some players on the current roster will need to be moved. I think guys like Crick, and Kela will be moved just because of the incidents that occurred last season. I believe this coming week at the Winter Meetings will be a very active week for the Pirates. By this time next week as many as 5 or 6 players may have been moved from the roster.
Changing The Culture
Moderators: SammyKhalifa, Doc, Bobster
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DemDog
Changing The Culture
How about a couple of the coaches that got physical with the two guys you mentioned?
Changing The Culture
If you want to change the culture, the GM needs to help with this too. He is part of the culture problem.
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fjk090852-7
- Posts: 3643
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:52 pm
Changing The Culture
7F5E567F545C3B0 wrote: How about a couple of the coaches that got physical with the two guys you mentioned?
I do think a couple of the current coaches go. I think Eckstein will be retained, as well as Bartee. Not sure about the remaining group. I am sure Shelton has some guys he wants to hire.
I do think a couple of the current coaches go. I think Eckstein will be retained, as well as Bartee. Not sure about the remaining group. I am sure Shelton has some guys he wants to hire.
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Bobster21
Changing The Culture
The clubhouse culture was that of a team that knew it had no support from the owner and little chance to be competitive. They saw good players moved to other teams and replaced by inexpensive and less talented players. The entire baseball operation seemed to revolve around a primary goal of not spending money. And this was the culmination of 4 years of dragging the team further and further away from what had been a successful period. When there were obvious needs to be filled, they went unfilled using AAAA players rather than acquiring help the way other teams do. When the rest of the division began to play up to their potential after the AS break, the Pirates were left in the dust. Because while it was fun to say they were only 2.5 games behind at the break, they had also lost more games than they had won at that point. The only reason they were "competitive" was because the other teams hadn't yet kicked into a higher gear that the Pirates did not possess. And as they got left in the dust, personalities in the clubhouse clashed. Probably because goals shifted from "team first" to "me first" when it became obvious to everyone in the clubhouse that the team was a lost cause.
A new culture has to be developed by giving the players reason to believe in the team. They have to see that when there are obvious needs, they won't be left high and dry so that Nutting can save money. They have to see that the organization has a solid plan so that even if they are losing in a rebuilding year, they can see that the right moves are being made, the right players are being developed for success and that a competitive winning team is on the horizon. Changing the culture doesn't mean ensuring there are no fistfights next season. It means giving the players reason to believe in their team and their teammates. Showing them that this management team is onboard with developing a winning team so that the players know they are playing for more than just their own stats and a chance to get to a better team. A couple years ago, both Freese and Harrison publicly commented on the culture of losing, noting there was no priority placed on winning. The new regime sounds like they want to change things. They even say Nutting wants to change things. I'm sure that's encouraging to hear in the clubhouse and should significantly change the culture as long as the players can see actions and not empty words.
A new culture has to be developed by giving the players reason to believe in the team. They have to see that when there are obvious needs, they won't be left high and dry so that Nutting can save money. They have to see that the organization has a solid plan so that even if they are losing in a rebuilding year, they can see that the right moves are being made, the right players are being developed for success and that a competitive winning team is on the horizon. Changing the culture doesn't mean ensuring there are no fistfights next season. It means giving the players reason to believe in their team and their teammates. Showing them that this management team is onboard with developing a winning team so that the players know they are playing for more than just their own stats and a chance to get to a better team. A couple years ago, both Freese and Harrison publicly commented on the culture of losing, noting there was no priority placed on winning. The new regime sounds like they want to change things. They even say Nutting wants to change things. I'm sure that's encouraging to hear in the clubhouse and should significantly change the culture as long as the players can see actions and not empty words.
Changing The Culture
0B262B3A3D2C3B7B78490 wrote: The clubhouse culture was that of a team that knew it had no support from the owner and little chance to be competitive. They saw good players moved to other teams and replaced by inexpensive and less talented players. The entire baseball operation seemed to revolve around a primary goal of not spending money. And this was the culmination of 4 years of dragging the team further and further away from what had been a successful period. When there were obvious needs to be filled, they went unfilled using AAAA players rather than acquiring help the way other teams do. When the rest of the division began to play up to their potential after the AS break, the Pirates were left in the dust. Because while it was fun to say they were only 2.5 games behind at the break, they had also lost more games than they had won at that point. The only reason they were "competitive" was because the other teams hadn't yet kicked into a higher gear that the Pirates did not possess. And as they got left in the dust, personalities in the clubhouse clashed. Probably because goals shifted from "team first" to "me first" when it became obvious to everyone in the clubhouse that the team was a lost cause.
A new culture has to be developed by giving the players reason to believe in the team. They have to see that when there are obvious needs, they won't be left high and dry so that Nutting can save money. They have to see that the organization has a solid plan so that even if they are losing in a rebuilding year, they can see that the right moves are being made, the right players are being developed for success and that a competitive winning team is on the horizon. Changing the culture doesn't mean ensuring there are no fistfights next season. It means giving the players reason to believe in their team and their teammates. Showing them that this management team is onboard with developing a winning team so that the players know they are playing for more than just their own stats and a chance to get to a better team. A couple years ago, both Freese and Harrison publicly commented on the culture of losing, noting there was no priority placed on winning. The new regime sounds like they want to change things. They even say Nutting wants to change things. I'm sure that's encouraging to hear in the clubhouse and should significantly change the culture as long as the players can see actions and not empty words.
This is exactly where I was getting at with my comment. Didn't have time to go into my version of a manifesto. You summed it up very well.
A new culture has to be developed by giving the players reason to believe in the team. They have to see that when there are obvious needs, they won't be left high and dry so that Nutting can save money. They have to see that the organization has a solid plan so that even if they are losing in a rebuilding year, they can see that the right moves are being made, the right players are being developed for success and that a competitive winning team is on the horizon. Changing the culture doesn't mean ensuring there are no fistfights next season. It means giving the players reason to believe in their team and their teammates. Showing them that this management team is onboard with developing a winning team so that the players know they are playing for more than just their own stats and a chance to get to a better team. A couple years ago, both Freese and Harrison publicly commented on the culture of losing, noting there was no priority placed on winning. The new regime sounds like they want to change things. They even say Nutting wants to change things. I'm sure that's encouraging to hear in the clubhouse and should significantly change the culture as long as the players can see actions and not empty words.
This is exactly where I was getting at with my comment. Didn't have time to go into my version of a manifesto. You summed it up very well.
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JollyRoger
- Posts: 1469
- Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:31 pm
Changing The Culture
163B36272031266665540 wrote: The clubhouse culture was that of a team that knew it had no support from the owner and little chance to be competitive. They saw good players moved to other teams and replaced by inexpensive and less talented players. The entire baseball operation seemed to revolve around a primary goal of not spending money. And this was the culmination of 4 years of dragging the team further and further away from what had been a successful period. When there were obvious needs to be filled, they went unfilled using AAAA players rather than acquiring help the way other teams do. When the rest of the division began to play up to their potential after the AS break, the Pirates were left in the dust. Because while it was fun to say they were only 2.5 games behind at the break, they had also lost more games than they had won at that point. The only reason they were "competitive" was because the other teams hadn't yet kicked into a higher gear that the Pirates did not possess. And as they got left in the dust, personalities in the clubhouse clashed. Probably because goals shifted from "team first" to "me first" when it became obvious to everyone in the clubhouse that the team was a lost cause.
A new culture has to be developed by giving the players reason to believe in the team. They have to see that when there are obvious needs, they won't be left high and dry so that Nutting can save money. They have to see that the organization has a solid plan so that even if they are losing in a rebuilding year, they can see that the right moves are being made, the right players are being developed for success and that a competitive winning team is on the horizon. Changing the culture doesn't mean ensuring there are no fistfights next season. It means giving the players reason to believe in their team and their teammates. Showing them that this management team is onboard with developing a winning team so that the players know they are playing for more than just their own stats and a chance to get to a better team. A couple years ago, both Freese and Harrison publicly commented on the culture of losing, noting there was no priority placed on winning. The new regime sounds like they want to change things. They even say Nutting wants to change things. I'm sure that's encouraging to hear in the clubhouse and should significantly change the culture as long as the players can see actions and not empty words.
Very well stated Bobster!!
A new culture has to be developed by giving the players reason to believe in the team. They have to see that when there are obvious needs, they won't be left high and dry so that Nutting can save money. They have to see that the organization has a solid plan so that even if they are losing in a rebuilding year, they can see that the right moves are being made, the right players are being developed for success and that a competitive winning team is on the horizon. Changing the culture doesn't mean ensuring there are no fistfights next season. It means giving the players reason to believe in their team and their teammates. Showing them that this management team is onboard with developing a winning team so that the players know they are playing for more than just their own stats and a chance to get to a better team. A couple years ago, both Freese and Harrison publicly commented on the culture of losing, noting there was no priority placed on winning. The new regime sounds like they want to change things. They even say Nutting wants to change things. I'm sure that's encouraging to hear in the clubhouse and should significantly change the culture as long as the players can see actions and not empty words.
Very well stated Bobster!!
Changing The Culture
A couple of thoughts:
1) Great observations Bobster. Unfortunately, when it comes to Nutting, I imagine that the euphoria and shine will wear off quite soon when Nutting does nothing to step up to provide BC more financial resources.
2) I don't now Kyle Crick, but maybe he was one of the good guys (rather than a bad influence) who simply tired of Vasquez being Vasquez.
3) To date, from my distant observation post, Kela appeared to have no interest in being in Pittsburgh. Perhaps it was because he was no longer a closer, or perhaps it was the culture of losing (the word on such clearly is out with the players), but he seemed to have no interest on being on the field. What BC does with Kela may be one of the more interesting off-season perspectives on where the team is headed for next season. Is Kela anointed the closer and he embraces the role? Or, is Kela traded for the best practical return? With his low salary - projected $3.4 through arbitration - some team should be willing to offer some talent for him.
4) I am not sure I really embrace Cora returning to be the third base coach. He made some horrible decisions at third last year with sending or not sending players home. Perhaps he fell into the malaise of losing, but that is what coaches are to try and rise above. Simply stated, Cora needs to be better next year.
5) Don Kelly looks like a good choice for bench coach. I also like that he was not a name that was really being bandied about.
6) Neil Walker. His best position now likely is 1st base. If Bell is traded, perhaps Walker could be someone to insert into the line-up along with Osuna to try and bridge a gap to 2021, but I would prefer someone who would be a risk but who would have an upside. Then again, if Walker would be a positive influence in the club-house and a reminder of the team's 3 year run at the play-offs, perhaps he is worth a contract.
7) The Bucs should look at moving Marte as part of the change in culture. I am not suggesting in any way that Marte was a bad influence in the club-house, but his performance often was enigmatic on the field. Highlight play one moment followed by a bad decision regarding where to throw or foolishly chasing pitches out of the strike-zone indicating that he was unprepared to bat against that pitcher in that game. I like Marte, but he is not a building block moving forward.
8) Anxiously awaiting the unfolding of the winter meetings and seeing if next season's landscape has changed at all come Friday.
1) Great observations Bobster. Unfortunately, when it comes to Nutting, I imagine that the euphoria and shine will wear off quite soon when Nutting does nothing to step up to provide BC more financial resources.
2) I don't now Kyle Crick, but maybe he was one of the good guys (rather than a bad influence) who simply tired of Vasquez being Vasquez.
3) To date, from my distant observation post, Kela appeared to have no interest in being in Pittsburgh. Perhaps it was because he was no longer a closer, or perhaps it was the culture of losing (the word on such clearly is out with the players), but he seemed to have no interest on being on the field. What BC does with Kela may be one of the more interesting off-season perspectives on where the team is headed for next season. Is Kela anointed the closer and he embraces the role? Or, is Kela traded for the best practical return? With his low salary - projected $3.4 through arbitration - some team should be willing to offer some talent for him.
4) I am not sure I really embrace Cora returning to be the third base coach. He made some horrible decisions at third last year with sending or not sending players home. Perhaps he fell into the malaise of losing, but that is what coaches are to try and rise above. Simply stated, Cora needs to be better next year.
5) Don Kelly looks like a good choice for bench coach. I also like that he was not a name that was really being bandied about.
6) Neil Walker. His best position now likely is 1st base. If Bell is traded, perhaps Walker could be someone to insert into the line-up along with Osuna to try and bridge a gap to 2021, but I would prefer someone who would be a risk but who would have an upside. Then again, if Walker would be a positive influence in the club-house and a reminder of the team's 3 year run at the play-offs, perhaps he is worth a contract.
7) The Bucs should look at moving Marte as part of the change in culture. I am not suggesting in any way that Marte was a bad influence in the club-house, but his performance often was enigmatic on the field. Highlight play one moment followed by a bad decision regarding where to throw or foolishly chasing pitches out of the strike-zone indicating that he was unprepared to bat against that pitcher in that game. I like Marte, but he is not a building block moving forward.
8) Anxiously awaiting the unfolding of the winter meetings and seeing if next season's landscape has changed at all come Friday.
Changing The Culture
Couldn't disagree more with the "cheap owner" stuff which is just so TIRED.
What was the clubhouse culture in 2013-2015? Why did they have the 2nd best record in MLB during that period, with the same management? Why was everyone high-fiving, playing jokes on each other, and always hanging out if the "owner is cheap and no one has any hope" stuff is/was true?
What great players were traded away? Cole and, uh, uh, no one. Cutch was traded probably a year TOO LATE, not too early. Melancon was traded at the PERFECT time, getting 2 excellent players back.
Glasnow was terrible with us and Meadows was injured every year. Both of those, as we see now (and some saw before) were an issue with player development. But there was hope that the same coaches that turned about Liriano, Burnett, Volquez, Happ, and others, would turn Archer into Burnett part deux. Didn't happen, which was the nail in the coffin for the prior management team, Hurdle & Searage.
The clubhouse issue probably had as much to do with Vasquez as anyone else - both players (Kela & Crick) mentioned issues with him getting preferential treatment - and at least someone had to know what was going on in his private life. Why he wasn't traded at the deadline is beyone me (from both a baseball perspective and a personal perspective).
There may be other bad actors, and if so, they should be removed. But you can't explain 2013-15 with the same old payroll garbage that some people want to keep spouting.
What was the clubhouse culture in 2013-2015? Why did they have the 2nd best record in MLB during that period, with the same management? Why was everyone high-fiving, playing jokes on each other, and always hanging out if the "owner is cheap and no one has any hope" stuff is/was true?
What great players were traded away? Cole and, uh, uh, no one. Cutch was traded probably a year TOO LATE, not too early. Melancon was traded at the PERFECT time, getting 2 excellent players back.
Glasnow was terrible with us and Meadows was injured every year. Both of those, as we see now (and some saw before) were an issue with player development. But there was hope that the same coaches that turned about Liriano, Burnett, Volquez, Happ, and others, would turn Archer into Burnett part deux. Didn't happen, which was the nail in the coffin for the prior management team, Hurdle & Searage.
The clubhouse issue probably had as much to do with Vasquez as anyone else - both players (Kela & Crick) mentioned issues with him getting preferential treatment - and at least someone had to know what was going on in his private life. Why he wasn't traded at the deadline is beyone me (from both a baseball perspective and a personal perspective).
There may be other bad actors, and if so, they should be removed. But you can't explain 2013-15 with the same old payroll garbage that some people want to keep spouting.
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Bobster21
Changing The Culture
3C3639243624313639570 wrote: Couldn't disagree more with the "cheap owner" stuff which is just so TIRED.
What was the clubhouse culture in 2013-2015? Why did they have the 2nd best record in MLB during that period, with the same management? Why was everyone high-fiving, playing jokes on each other, and always hanging out if the "owner is cheap and no one has any hope" stuff is/was true?
What great players were traded away? Cole and, uh, uh, no one. Cutch was traded probably a year TOO LATE, not too early. Melancon was traded at the PERFECT time, getting 2 excellent players back.
Glasnow was terrible with us and Meadows was injured every year. Both of those, as we see now (and some saw before) were an issue with player development. But there was hope that the same coaches that turned about Liriano, Burnett, Volquez, Happ, and others, would turn Archer into Burnett part deux. Didn't happen, which was the nail in the coffin for the prior management team, Hurdle & Searage.
The clubhouse issue probably had as much to do with Vasquez as anyone else - both players (Kela & Crick) mentioned issues with him getting preferential treatment - and at least someone had to know what was going on in his private life. Why he wasn't traded at the deadline is beyone me (from both a baseball perspective and a personal perspective).
There may be other bad actors, and if so, they should be removed. But you can't explain 2013-15 with the same old payroll garbage that some people want to keep spouting.
Sorry that you find the truth so tiring. Perhaps if you did a little research before spouting off, you would have a better understanding.
In 2013 the Pirates payroll (59.5 mil) was 52.8% of the MLB avg (112.6 mil). But the Yankees were paying 8.5 mil of Burnett's 16.5 mil contract. Had the Pirates paid all of Burnett's contract they would have been at 60.3% of the MLB avg.
In 2014 the Pirates payroll (77 mil) was 64.2% of the MLB avg (120 mil). That was a nice increase and it showed Nutting's commitment, such as it was.
In 2015 the Pirates payroll (99.4 mil) was 77.1% of the MLB avg (128.9 mil). An even better effort at getting to the MLB avg.
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Ah, but then things trended downward.
In 2016, following a 98 win season and franchise record attendance, Pirates payroll increased negligibly to 99.5 mil while the MLB avg increased to 134.2 mil. So the Pirates actually decreased from 77.1% to 74.1% of the MLB avg. Not a good sign when they were coming off revenue from a franchise attendance record.
In 2017 the Pirates payroll decreased to 98.2 mil and further decreased from 74.1% to 73.1% of the MLB avg (140.8 mil).
In 2018 the Pirates payroll again decreased to 91 mil, which was only 67.8% of the MLB avg of 139.4 mil.
In 2019 the Pirates payroll drastically dropped to 72.7 mil, which was a mere 52.3% of the MLB avg of 139 mil.
So when you say, "But you can't explain 2013-15 with the same old payroll garbage that some people want to keep spouting," yes, I can certainly explain 2013-15 as a much better effort in terms of payroll than the steady decline in that area ever since.
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh- ... roll/2019/
What was the clubhouse culture in 2013-2015? Why did they have the 2nd best record in MLB during that period, with the same management? Why was everyone high-fiving, playing jokes on each other, and always hanging out if the "owner is cheap and no one has any hope" stuff is/was true?
What great players were traded away? Cole and, uh, uh, no one. Cutch was traded probably a year TOO LATE, not too early. Melancon was traded at the PERFECT time, getting 2 excellent players back.
Glasnow was terrible with us and Meadows was injured every year. Both of those, as we see now (and some saw before) were an issue with player development. But there was hope that the same coaches that turned about Liriano, Burnett, Volquez, Happ, and others, would turn Archer into Burnett part deux. Didn't happen, which was the nail in the coffin for the prior management team, Hurdle & Searage.
The clubhouse issue probably had as much to do with Vasquez as anyone else - both players (Kela & Crick) mentioned issues with him getting preferential treatment - and at least someone had to know what was going on in his private life. Why he wasn't traded at the deadline is beyone me (from both a baseball perspective and a personal perspective).
There may be other bad actors, and if so, they should be removed. But you can't explain 2013-15 with the same old payroll garbage that some people want to keep spouting.
Sorry that you find the truth so tiring. Perhaps if you did a little research before spouting off, you would have a better understanding.
In 2013 the Pirates payroll (59.5 mil) was 52.8% of the MLB avg (112.6 mil). But the Yankees were paying 8.5 mil of Burnett's 16.5 mil contract. Had the Pirates paid all of Burnett's contract they would have been at 60.3% of the MLB avg.
In 2014 the Pirates payroll (77 mil) was 64.2% of the MLB avg (120 mil). That was a nice increase and it showed Nutting's commitment, such as it was.
In 2015 the Pirates payroll (99.4 mil) was 77.1% of the MLB avg (128.9 mil). An even better effort at getting to the MLB avg.
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Ah, but then things trended downward.
In 2016, following a 98 win season and franchise record attendance, Pirates payroll increased negligibly to 99.5 mil while the MLB avg increased to 134.2 mil. So the Pirates actually decreased from 77.1% to 74.1% of the MLB avg. Not a good sign when they were coming off revenue from a franchise attendance record.
In 2017 the Pirates payroll decreased to 98.2 mil and further decreased from 74.1% to 73.1% of the MLB avg (140.8 mil).
In 2018 the Pirates payroll again decreased to 91 mil, which was only 67.8% of the MLB avg of 139.4 mil.
In 2019 the Pirates payroll drastically dropped to 72.7 mil, which was a mere 52.3% of the MLB avg of 139 mil.
So when you say, "But you can't explain 2013-15 with the same old payroll garbage that some people want to keep spouting," yes, I can certainly explain 2013-15 as a much better effort in terms of payroll than the steady decline in that area ever since.
https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/pittsburgh- ... roll/2019/