OnlyBucs

I wonder if that high profile decision will fuel a change in how closers are used. I've always contended that the best reliever is more valuable in getting out of potential game-losing jams than sitting out the game until and unless there is a lead to protect in the last inning. Prior to the closer concept, the ace reliever still got the majority of the saves but was also used to get out of a jam that could prevent a win. Teams would have a handful of guys with a handful of saves because the best reliever had sometimes been needed earlier, and without his work there would have been no lead in the last inning.



Orioles reliever Duensing got the 1st out in the 11th and Ubaldo Jimenez entered. As a starter, he was not used to entering in the middle of an inning. He immediately gave up 2 hits to put runners at 1st and 3rd. Orioles needed a K or a popup. Britton sat in the bullpen with his 0.54 ERA, 0.836, WHIP, 9.9 K/9 and 5.1 H/9. Then Britton watched as Jimenez gave up a season ending HR. Showalter was waiting to get a lead and use Britton to get the last 3 outs. But Britton was probably the only pitcher in their pen who could have got out of that jam. I wonder if this will change the thinking on how closers are used.



I think another problem with the closer concept is that it sends a message to every other pitcher in the pen that mgt doesn't think they are up to the task of getting the last 3 outs. Back when relievers like Face or Sutter or Gossage were getting out of 7th or 8th inning jams, another pitcher might enter to get the last 3 outs in the 9th to preserve the win. But now even in the minors, they are told that only certain pitchers are groomed to do this. This year Watson went from 8th inning specialist to a struggling 9th inning closer. I think that so much is made of this requiring a special skill that some pitchers lose their confidence in that situation. Many years ago, getting a save was not considered the big deal it is today and when the bullpen ace had been used earlier, someone else would pitch the 9th and get a save without thinking he was doing something he wasn't qualified to do.



It's fine to have your bullpen ace available to nail down those last 3 outs. But it shouldn't preclude him from being used in other situations when the game is on the line. Maybe other managers will learn from Showalter's mistake.

I agree with you for the most part. Using the Pirates as an example, there wouldn't have been many times I would have lifted Watson for Melancon. Watson was that good and acted as a second closer.



Baltimore was not in that situation. Britton should have been used in the 11th. He could have been used in the 9th too. Very bad move not using him.



What about the Mets? They brought in their Closer and he blew the game by giving up a HR?



In a one -and-done game, Britton should have been used. I also don't blame the Mets. One of those things / debates that will never go away as it is more of a would of, should of, could of...

Looks like some others feel this way too.



http://blog.triblive.com/bucco-blog/201 ... z4MOlLPwb9



http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2016/10/5/1 ... -showalter

Chapman came in the 8th with runners on base. I agreed with the move, but he gave up a double and a single. The Giants scored three runs with him on the mound, one earned.



Chapman was in line for the loss. The Cubs did tie it up, but no more Chapman.

616A626E6B6A713432457C646D6A6A2B666A050 wrote: Chapman came in the 8th with runners on base. I agreed with the move, but he gave up a double and a single. The Giants scored three runs with him on the mound, one earned.



Chapman was in line for the loss. The Cubs did tie it up, but no more Chapman.
But I still think it was the right move. Just as someone would say bringing in a closer to pitch the 9th with a 1-run lead is the right move even if he blows the save. In this case, the Cubs had a 3-2 lead in the 8th but SF got their 1st 2 runners aboard against Wood and then Rondon. It looked like the make or break inning for the game so the Cubs brought in their best reliever to try to get out of the jam. It didn't work out but it was the right move.

I remember the Fireman of the Year award. It was definitely the right move. Just didn't work this one time.

I agree it was the right move. I'm just pointing out the people who are against that move can use this as an example.

Bump.



There will always be a debate on when to use the best relief pitcher.

28232B272223387D7B0C352D242323622F234C0 wrote: Bump.



There will always be a debate on when to use the best relief pitcher. 
Per my comments to begin this thread, I like Rivero in his current role. He should be used to the team's best advantage. And since he hadn't been used last night in an earlier inning, he was available to pitch the 9th instead of the struggling Watson. But it didn't fit the formula. He can't close unless he is designated the closer. Watson is designated the closer so he has to close. It's silly and counterproductive. I don't care about saves. It's a silly stat that has actually changed the way games are managed. No other stat dictates how players are used. Clearly Watson cannot be used to hold 9th inning leads. I hope that role goes to Nicasio with Rivero setting him up. At least to try it and see if it works before taking Rivero out of his current role. And if a situation occurs like last night where Rivero is available for the 9th, then use him. It ain't rocket science. >:(

002D20313627307073420 wrote: Bump.



There will always be a debate on when to use the best relief pitcher. 
Per my comments to begin this thread, I like Rivero in his current role. He should be used to the team's best advantage. And since he hadn't been used last night in an earlier inning, he was available to pitch the 9th instead of the struggling Watson. But it didn't fit the formula. He can't close unless he is designated the closer. Watson is designated the closer so he has to close. It's silly and counterproductive. I don't care about saves. It's a silly stat that has actually changed the way games are managed. No other stat dictates how players are used. Clearly Watson cannot be used to hold 9th inning leads. I hope that role goes to Nicasio with Rivero setting him up. At least to try it and see if it works before taking Rivero out of his current role. And if a situation occurs like last night where Rivero is available for the 9th, then use him. It ain't rocket science.  >:(


I could see a manager trying to give Watson chance to get a save and maybe get back on track, however, he should have been ready to pull Watson if he didn't have it.  No way that Watson still should have been in there to pitch to Mancini. 



It doesn't help that the team has Barbato and Marinez in bullpen either. Neither has shown that they are more than below average relievers.



By the way, when are the Bucs going to have a rookie come up and perform similar to Mancini? Marte and Cutch I believe are last rookie hitters to come up and play well (unless Diaz keeps it up).