OnlyBucs

Granted, these four new players could surprise. But we can all agree: this return is nothing for Cole. For an origanization like the Pirates, they’ve gotta capitalize wherever they can. Ultimately, there is no way to score the draft of Cole but as a failure. This of course is in line with Neal’s drafting in general, but it stings more when we’re talking about a 1/1.



It’s interesting that the Astros truly wasted a 1/1 on Appel in 2012, one year after Cole was drafted. The Astros had other draft picks to pickup the slack. They win a WS and will be favorites for the next couple years at least. The Pirates slip back into irrelevance. No excuses about small mkts, etc: 10 years of very poor drafting, the most important opportunity the Pirates gave.



2008 #2 Alvarez - nothing

2009 #4 Sanchez - nothing

2010 #2 Tallion - we can hope; great potential

2911 #1 Cole - 4 mostly uninteresting players.

2013 #9 Meadows - suddenly questionable.

2013 #14 McGuire - nothing

2014 #24 Tucker - possibly average MLBer

2015 #19 Newman - same

2016 #22 Craig - who knows

2017 #12 Baz - who knows.

787F69616F783F334A6D676B6366246965670A0 wrote: Granted, these four new players could surprise.  But we can all agree: this return is nothing for Cole. For an origanization like the Pirates, they’ve gotta capitalize wherever they can. Ultimately, there is no way to score the draft of Cole but as a failure. This of course is in line with Neal’s drafting in general, but it stings more when we’re talking about a 1/1. 



It’s interesting that the Astros truly wasted a 1/1 on Appel in 2012, one year after Cole was drafted. The Astros had other draft picks to pickup the slack. They win a WS and will be favorites for the next couple years at least. The Pirates slip back into irrelevance.  No excuses about small mkts, etc: 10 years of very poor drafting, the most important opportunity the Pirates gave.



2008 #2 Alvarez - nothing

2009 #4 Sanchez - nothing

2010 #2 Tallion - we can hope; great potential

2911 #1 Cole - 4 mostly uninteresting players.

2013 #9 Meadows - suddenly questionable.

2013 #14 McGuire - nothing

2014 #24 Tucker - possibly average MLBer

2015 #19 Newman - same

2016 #22 Craig - who knows

2017 #12 Baz - who knows.




To win, teams need above average to great players. The Pirates aren't going to sign them as free agents. They haven't been drafting them. The other option is to trade for them. That is what I find disappointing about this deal. There is no one that is at least to be projected to be a likely high end player.



Also, getting Musgrave and Feliz does add a couple of good arms which is a plus.



However, are these arms going to allow the Pirates to have a surplus of arms or are they needed because the Pirate farm system has failed to provide enough good arms for the bullpen?



I think by this time of NH's regime with emphasis on acquiring pitching that the Pirates should be able to fill in with players like Santana, Neveruaskas, Waddell, etc.

7F59584F59493A0 wrote: Granted, these four new players could surprise.  But we can all agree: this return is nothing for Cole. For an origanization like the Pirates, they’ve gotta capitalize wherever they can. Ultimately, there is no way to score the draft of Cole but as a failure. This of course is in line with Neal’s drafting in general, but it stings more when we’re talking about a 1/1. 



It’s interesting that the Astros truly wasted a 1/1 on Appel in 2012, one year after Cole was drafted. The Astros had other draft picks to pickup the slack. They win a WS and will be favorites for the next couple years at least. The Pirates slip back into irrelevance.  No excuses about small mkts, etc: 10 years of very poor drafting, the most important opportunity the Pirates gave.



2008 #2 Alvarez - nothing

2009 #4 Sanchez - nothing

2010 #2 Tallion - we can hope; great potential

2911 #1 Cole - 4 mostly uninteresting players.

2013 #9 Meadows - suddenly questionable.

2013 #14 McGuire - nothing

2014 #24 Tucker - possibly average MLBer

2015 #19 Newman - same

2016 #22 Craig - who knows

2017 #12 Baz - who knows.




To win, teams need above average to great players.  The Pirates aren't going to sign them as free agents.  They haven't been drafting them.  The other option is to trade for them.  That is what I find disappointing about this deal.  There is no one that is at least to be projected to be a likely high end player.



Also, getting Musgrave and Feliz does add a couple of good arms which is a plus.   



However, are these arms going to allow the Pirates to have a surplus of arms or are they needed because the Pirate farm system has failed to provide enough good arms for the bullpen?



I think by this time of NH's regime with emphasis on acquiring pitching that the Pirates should be able to fill in with players like Santana, Neveruaskas, Waddell, etc. 






Correction, the Astros drafted Appel in 2013, not 12.  The Pirates drafted him in 2011 which gave them two 1st rounders in 2012. 



The Astros made the trade for Cole from positions of strength. They’re ecstatic to turn Moran and three “throw-ins” into Cole. Cole let us down as a #1; he’ll be a good addition as a #3 or 4 and make the Astros better as a team.



I can think of two players the Pirates have acquire through a trade, that looked to make the Pirates materially better, dealing out of position of strength - Holt for Melancon and Lincoln for Snider.  Other trades, the Pirates are moving pawns off the chess board.  I can’t think of the Pirates using their system in a strategic way, packaging players to fill a need.



That’s what was so shocking in the Frankie trade - a catching prospect and a center field prospect used to move a “bad” contract. 



I find it inexcusable to draft 1/1 or 1/2 or 1/4 or 1/14 and to turn that draft position into nothing. I find it inexcusable that we’ve allowed a once highly regarded farm system to deliver so little at the ML level or into trade opportunities. 



Another valuable piece has passed through; the Pirates managed to receive one possible help and three nondescript, fungible players. 

5354424A4453141861464C40484D0F424E4C210 wrote: Granted, these four new players could surprise.  But we can all agree: this return is nothing for Cole. For an origanization like the Pirates, they’ve gotta capitalize wherever they can. Ultimately, there is no way to score the draft of Cole but as a failure. This of course is in line with Neal’s drafting in general, but it stings more when we’re talking about a 1/1. 



It’s interesting that the Astros truly wasted a 1/1 on Appel in 2012, one year after Cole was drafted. The Astros had other draft picks to pickup the slack. They win a WS and will be favorites for the next couple years at least. The Pirates slip back into irrelevance.  No excuses about small mkts, etc: 10 years of very poor drafting, the most important opportunity the Pirates gave.



2008 #2 Alvarez - nothing

2009 #4 Sanchez - nothing

2010 #2 Tallion - we can hope; great potential

2911 #1 Cole - 4 mostly uninteresting players.

2013 #9 Meadows - suddenly questionable.

2013 #14 McGuire - nothing

2014 #24 Tucker - possibly average MLBer

2015 #19 Newman - same

2016 #22 Craig - who knows

2017 #12 Baz - who knows.




To win, teams need above average to great players.  The Pirates aren't going to sign them as free agents.  They haven't been drafting them.  The other option is to trade for them.  That is what I find disappointing about this deal.  There is no one that is at least to be projected to be a likely high end player.



Also, getting Musgrave and Feliz does add a couple of good arms which is a plus.   



However, are these arms going to allow the Pirates to have a surplus of arms or are they needed because the Pirate farm system has failed to provide enough good arms for the bullpen?



I think by this time of NH's regime with emphasis on acquiring pitching that the Pirates should be able to fill in with players like Santana, Neveruaskas, Waddell, etc. 






Correction, the Astros drafted Appel in 2013, not 12.  The Pirates drafted him in 2011 which gave them two 1st rounders in 2012. 



The Astros made the trade for Cole from positions of strength. They’re ecstatic to turn Moran and three “throw-ins” into Cole. Cole let us down as a #1; he’ll be a good addition as a #3 or 4 and make the Astros better as a team.



I can think of two players the Pirates have acquire through a trade, that looked to make the Pirates materially better, dealing out of position of strength - Holt for Melancon and Lincoln for Snider.  Other trades, the Pirates are moving pawns off the chess board.  I can’t think of the Pirates using their system in a strategic way, packaging players to fill a need.



That’s what was so shocking in the Frankie trade - a catching prospect and a center field prospect used to move a “bad” contract. 



I find it inexcusable to draft 1/1 or 1/2 or 1/4 or 1/14 and to turn that draft position into nothing. I find it inexcusable that we’ve allowed a once highly regarded farm system to deliver so little at the ML level or into trade opportunities. 



Another valuable piece has passed through; the Pirates managed to receive one possible help and three nondescript, fungible players. 


The main guy in the Melancon deal was Hanrahan, coming off 2 outstanding seasons for the Bucs. Hanrahan had 1 more year before free agency and the Bucs knew they wouldn't keep him. Melancon had been good for Houston but horrible for Boston and lugged a 6.20 ERA to the Pirates who also obtained Ivan De Jesus, Stolmy Pimentel and Jerry Sands. So the return for standout closer Hanrahan was very questionable. Fortunately, Melancon rebounded but the rest were worthless.

547974656273642427160 wrote: Granted, these four new players could surprise.  But we can all agree: this return is nothing for Cole. For an origanization like the Pirates, they’ve gotta capitalize wherever they can. Ultimately, there is no way to score the draft of Cole but as a failure. This of course is in line with Neal’s drafting in general, but it stings more when we’re talking about a 1/1. 



It’s interesting that the Astros truly wasted a 1/1 on Appel in 2012, one year after Cole was drafted. The Astros had other draft picks to pickup the slack. They win a WS and will be favorites for the next couple years at least. The Pirates slip back into irrelevance.  No excuses about small mkts, etc: 10 years of very poor drafting, the most important opportunity the Pirates gave.



2008 #2 Alvarez - nothing

2009 #4 Sanchez - nothing

2010 #2 Tallion - we can hope; great potential

2911 #1 Cole - 4 mostly uninteresting players.

2013 #9 Meadows - suddenly questionable.

2013 #14 McGuire - nothing

2014 #24 Tucker - possibly average MLBer

2015 #19 Newman - same

2016 #22 Craig - who knows

2017 #12 Baz - who knows.




To win, teams need above average to great players.  The Pirates aren't going to sign them as free agents.  They haven't been drafting them.  The other option is to trade for them.  That is what I find disappointing about this deal.  There is no one that is at least to be projected to be a likely high end player.



Also, getting Musgrave and Feliz does add a couple of good arms which is a plus.   



However, are these arms going to allow the Pirates to have a surplus of arms or are they needed because the Pirate farm system has failed to provide enough good arms for the bullpen?



I think by this time of NH's regime with emphasis on acquiring pitching that the Pirates should be able to fill in with players like Santana, Neveruaskas, Waddell, etc. 






Correction, the Astros drafted Appel in 2013, not 12.  The Pirates drafted him in 2011 which gave them two 1st rounders in 2012. 



The Astros made the trade for Cole from positions of strength. They’re ecstatic to turn Moran and three “throw-ins” into Cole. Cole let us down as a #1; he’ll be a good addition as a #3 or 4 and make the Astros better as a team.



I can think of two players the Pirates have acquire through a trade, that looked to make the Pirates materially better, dealing out of position of strength - Holt for Melancon and Lincoln for Snider.  Other trades, the Pirates are moving pawns off the chess board.  I can’t think of the Pirates using their system in a strategic way, packaging players to fill a need.



That’s what was so shocking in the Frankie trade - a catching prospect and a center field prospect used to move a “bad” contract. 



I find it inexcusable to draft 1/1 or 1/2 or 1/4 or 1/14 and to turn that draft position into nothing. I find it inexcusable that we’ve allowed a once highly regarded farm system to deliver so little at the ML level or into trade opportunities. 



Another valuable piece has passed through; the Pirates managed to receive one possible help and three nondescript, fungible players. 


The main guy in the Melancon deal was Hanrahan, coming off 2 outstanding seasons for the Bucs. Hanrahan had 1 more year before free agency and the Bucs knew they wouldn't keep him. Melancon had been good for Houston but horrible for Boston and lugged a 6.20 ERA to the Pirates who also obtained Ivan De Jesus, Stolmy Pimentel and Jerry Sands. So the return for standout closer Hanrahan was very questionable. Fortunately, Melancon rebounded but the rest were worthless.




You’re right.  I forgot about all the detail. I do remember a lot of people feeling like the Pirates got a bad deal. I remember Holt because he was a well regarded prospect.  Moving a prospect should be a pretty big deal. I tend to remember them more than roster guys. 



I’d love to see just one trade where the Pirates were making a real splash. Heck, I remember the excitement when the Pirates got nearly a month of Byrd.

3A3D2B232D3A7D71082F25292124662B2725480 wrote: Ultimately, there is no way to score the draft of Cole but as a failure.


The trade return, as of now, looks like a failure. There's a chance one or more of the players will exceed expectations, but I think those chances aren't good.



That being said, I don't see the pick/signing of Cole as a failure.



782 IP

3.50 ERA

112 ERA+

3.27 FIP

2.3 BB/9

8.4 K/9



There were definitely better players taken after him, but overall those are very solid numbers for a starting pitcher.



Sure, he's a 1st overall pick in a draft, but I still don't see it as a failed pick. I think it's fair to say we hoped for and/or expected more, but he's not a failure.

4767746968060 wrote: Ultimately, there is no way to score the draft of Cole but as a failure.


The trade return, as of now, looks like a failure. There's a chance one or more of the players will exceed expectations, but I think those chances aren't good.



That being said, I don't see the pick/signing of Cole as a failure.



782 IP

3.50 ERA

112 ERA+

3.27 FIP

2.3 BB/9

8.4 K/9



There were definitely better players taken after him, but overall those are very solid numbers for a starting pitcher.



Sure, he's a 1st overall pick in a draft, but I still don't see it as a failed pick. I think it's fair to say we hoped for and/or expected more, but he's not a failure.








I agree - he’s been more than decent a good deal of his career. When I use the word “failure” I’m thinking about that draft slot changing the pirate organization. Not just Cole, but the entire first round Neal has drafted has had moderate success at best individually and not one of those draft picks were “turned over” to help ensure a solid future.



Each of those picks needed to make the Pirates better during their tour with the Pirates and then be traded for other players that can sustain into the future.



I don’t expect all the rounds to deliver, but not one?



I guess I see top picks as a means to change short term and long term success. A successful pick has the opportunity to trade up to potentially unlimited opportunity. The Pirates selections have all more or less sputtered into a dead end. A few years and then nothing.



Add Cole, most likely, as another dead end.

You can't put that label on Cole at this point. He was a big part of the three year playoff run (do they do that without Cole? - and Alvarez?). His return hasn't even played a game yet for the Pirates.



In five years from now, you may be right. But very unfair to say that at this point.

4641575F5146010D745359555D581A575B59340 wrote: Ultimately, there is no way to score the draft of Cole but as a failure.


The trade return, as of now, looks like a failure. There's a chance one or more of the players will exceed expectations, but I think those chances aren't good.



That being said, I don't see the pick/signing of Cole as a failure.



782 IP

3.50 ERA

112 ERA+

3.27 FIP

2.3 BB/9

8.4 K/9



There were definitely better players taken after him, but overall those are very solid numbers for a starting pitcher.



Sure, he's a 1st overall pick in a draft, but I still don't see it as a failed pick. I think it's fair to say we hoped for and/or expected more, but he's not a failure.








I agree - he’s been more than decent a good deal of his career.  When I use the word “failure” I’m thinking about that draft slot changing the pirate organization. Not just Cole, but the entire first round Neal has drafted has had moderate success at best individually and not one of those draft picks were “turned over” to help ensure a solid future. 



Each of those picks needed to make the Pirates better during their tour with the Pirates and then be traded for other players that can sustain into the future.



I don’t expect all the rounds to deliver, but not one?



I guess I see top picks as a means to change short term and long term success.  A successful pick has the opportunity to trade up to potentially unlimited opportunity.  The Pirates selections have all more or less sputtered into a dead end.  A few years and then nothing.   



Add Cole, most likely, as another dead end.




I agree with your overall point. The results of NH's drafting has been way worse than what this organization needs from their GM.



I'm just trying to look at the Cole pick in a vacuum. In that sense, especially when you consider that even first overall picks can totally bust, Cole is a success.



If we're looking at Cole through the prism of NH's overall drafting results, then yes, he looks disappointing.

Somewhere I read or heard that a good ML draft class produces three to four ML level players. In the Cole trade the Pirates got three likely rosters players for the start of 2018, plus a minor league option that might make it to the majors. That sounds like they got basically a year's draft class in exchange for Cole.