OnlyBucs

Over the years, I've had the opportunity to talk to a couple different pitching coaches of note.



Ray Miller did great work in his time with the Pirates and Orioles. Leo Mazzone did great work with the Braves. I would argue that he didn't have enough time with the Orioles, but it didn't turn out so well.



I can safely say that neither would fit into the current philosophy of counting innings as a barometer of how much a pitcher should be used.



Ray Miller started to refer to young pitchers as having Nintendo Arms, meaning they were spending more of their youth playing video games than developing their arms on the field.



One time, I was emcee at a banquet where Ray was a guest speaker, and Leo was unable to attend at the last minute, and sent notes for Sam Perlozzo to pass along. Sam handed me the notes and asked if everything looked right.



Leo was at a banquet at New York where Greg McMichael was getting an award for his time with the Braves. Sam's notes said that McMichael pitched over 100 innings five straight years. To me, that sounded a little high, so we asked Ray.



Ray said that he never really looked at innings pitched. Ray was big on rapport. He said he would trust his pitchers to tell him when they could go, and when they couldn't. I'm sure it was a little more than that, but probably not much more.



I grew up listening to Leo at the same banquet. Hank Aaron had paired him with Johnny Sain, which is where Leo got a lot of his background. Aaron sent Leo to establish his throwing program in the minor leagues. That program is based on treating the muscles involved in pitching as a series of muscles that need to be developed, and that can only be done through use.



In the off season, Mazzone's pitchers weren't shut down. They were given a throwing program. Outside of Steve Avery, those pitchers almost never got hurt. Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz all reached the Hall of Fame with long careers, with far fewer injuries than we see these days.



Now, those guys all had talent before they ever got to Leo, and he'll be the first to tell you that he "didn't screw them up." But they were successful over the long term because they were able to take the ball every fifth day, or in Smoltz's case, coming out of the pen to finish at the end of his career.



I can't tell you what the Pirates off season program is, but it seems they've had more pitchers go on the IL than Santa has reindeer.



We all know the Ray Miller philosophy: Work fast. Change speeds. Throw strikes. Leo was all about being locate the fast ball low and outside, and knowing that you don't have to be your best against average hitters to get them out, thereby managing your effort. Both approaches encouraged the art of pitching.



Just some thoughts on a Sunday morning, when the Pirates are much closer to the top than they have any right to be.

Interesting observations.

68414E5B5C6A564A434E5C472F0 wrote:





We all know the Ray Miller philosophy:  Work fast.  Change speeds.  Throw strikes. 



 


I wanted one of those T shirts with that slogan he gave to the pitching staff so bad.

I think Bob Feller was also very critical of "babying" pitchers and that they did not throw enough. I don't know enough to know how many pitchers back in the day suffered a dead arm compared to today. I don't know if the breaking pitches are thrown more often now and at a younger age. I am not sure about the Nintendo arm because I think the kids throw a lot in the AAU networks growing up around the nation. I would expect that a typical high school kid today probably has a lot more innings on his arm than someone 50 years ago but again, I didn't do the research to back that up. Now, maybe, it is better to throw more often than they do now. Maybe, that actually caused pitchers to hold back and not strain it like they do every 5 days. It always sounds good to make those claims but with all of the trainers they have now, I would think that they would know a thing or two about straining an arm.

Maybe it's because pitchers routinely throw harder today than in the past but they are treated as if it's just a matter of time before they get hurt so the less they are used, the better. They are limited by innings, pitch counts and extra days off. They are valuable commodities and the policy seems to be to use them enough to win but as sparingly as possible to delay the injuries they are bound to have.

I wish there were more reliable stats on pitch counts in previous decades. I am still convinced that one of the big the reasons pitchers today are perceived to throw less is because there are many more pitches per at bat (and therefore per inning), creating fewer innings pitched. How often do you see a first pitch grounder to short or whatever any more? Batters are taught to take pitches and work counts and don't care about strikeouts.



Of course my theory here could be a bunch of nonsense too. I can't seem to find where we kept pitch tracking "back then."

587578696E7F68282B1A0 wrote: Maybe it's because pitchers routinely throw harder today than in the past but they are treated as if it's just a matter of time before they get hurt so the less they are used, the better. They are limited by innings, pitch counts and extra days off. They are valuable commodities and the policy seems to be to use them enough to win but as sparingly as possible to delay the injuries they are bound to have.
Did you hear Bob Walk's rain delay story about pitching with the "frayed" ligament after his injury?  Basically he did (and I'm assuming still does) need TJ but instead learned to deal with it, though he was never the same kind of pitcher after (several mph slower). 



He obviously worked out something and had a decent career, but it makes me wonder about other guys, players who either never made it to the majors or had short stints then never came back. Are players really getting injured more now, or are they just properly diagnosed and treated more often?

I think velocity is a key thing. Guys routinely throw 95+. In previous eras, guys were 88-92. That’s a soft tosser today. Radar guns have made kids overthrow. It’s not merely “pitchers are babied.” It’s that they throw harder at an earlier age. And with travel ball being such a big thing now, kids are throwing more innings at a younger age. There’s no reason at all for a high school kid to need TJ surgery, other than throwing too hard too often at too young an age.

191112253316313E500 wrote: I think velocity is a key thing. Guys routinely throw 95+. In previous eras, guys were 88-92. That’s a soft tosser today. Radar guns have made kids overthrow. It’s not merely “pitchers are babied.” It’s that they throw harder at an earlier age. And with travel ball being such a big thing now, kids are throwing more innings at a younger age. There’s no reason at all for a high school kid to need TJ surgery, other than throwing too hard too often at too young an age.


yes, and in the olden days (I would even say 25 or 30 years ago) pitchers didn't need to make a maximum effort on every pitch. There were some hitters that weren't much of a threat (think Roy Oyler and Dal Maxvill - ok that is close to 50 years ago). The Bucs had Jackie Hernandez, Mario M.